New Intercity Trains have FIXED Seating?

 
  TomBTR Train Controller

Location: near Sydney
I prefer to face forwards. However I find the Oscar seats to be uncomfortable on a long journey.

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  a6et Minister for Railways

There were new pictures and info released recently to do with the design of the intercity trains. In the articles it is stated that they chose to have fixed seating so that they can add new features such as tables and charging ports. I think the tables are not necessary as you can eat without them, are one of the reasons why we won’t have reversible seats, are probably gonna be dirty (have gum, spilt drinks and other sticky stuff on them) and not function properly after a few weeks. On the other hand, I do think charging ports are a great idea and believe that a lot of passengers will like this new feature. This feature does not need fixed seating because on reversible seats such as the ones found on V Sets and H Sets, only the backrest moves and so if the port is located on the middle of the arm rest, it can easily be accessed by passengers no matter which way they decide to face. In my opinion, I think the new trains should have Oscar seats with charging ports rather than the new fixed seating they are planning to install. What do you think?
C3765
Agree, thing to me after seeing the publicity carriage on the news last night, those seats and the back rests are a concern for me as I have serious back issues, and the thin looking padding looks quite uncomfortable and something I find when having to travel on the current fleet of interurban trains, not including the V sets. Travel to and from Hamilton is a real painful experience for me and lucky on the up to get to Wyong before I begin to get a lot of pain, on the down its usually around Woy Woy that are my limit.  I don't see a lot of leg room between the seats either.

The arrogant transport minister how often does he really listen to the commuters and how often does he travel on his pets over any sort of distance.  Maybe in the future he could bus it from his South Coast home/electorate and get on one of his new pets both ways from Kiama on a regular basis when the come in, with luck he may be booted out by then and all we can hope for is that someone can look seriously at commuters concerns.

For me the power points and charging are fine but having them able to get on to the signals so that mobile phones are not cutting out frequently as they do on each of the lines needs to be more of a priority.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

There were new pictures and info released recently to do with the design of the intercity trains. In the articles it is stated that they chose to have fixed seating so that they can add new features such as tables and charging ports. I think the tables are not necessary as you can eat without them, are one of the reasons why we won’t have reversible seats, are probably gonna be dirty (have gum, spilt drinks and other sticky stuff on them) and not function properly after a few weeks. On the other hand, I do think charging ports are a great idea and believe that a lot of passengers will like this new feature. This feature does not need fixed seating because on reversible seats such as the ones found on V Sets and H Sets, only the backrest moves and so if the port is located on the middle of the arm rest, it can easily be accessed by passengers no matter which way they decide to face. In my opinion, I think the new trains should have Oscar seats with charging ports rather than the new fixed seating they are planning to install. What do you think?
Agree, thing to me after seeing the publicity carriage on the news last night, those seats and the back rests are a concern for me as I have serious back issues, and the thin looking padding looks quite uncomfortable and something I find when having to travel on the current fleet of interurban trains, not including the V sets. Travel to and from Hamilton is a real painful experience for me and lucky on the up to get to Wyong before I begin to get a lot of pain, on the down its usually around Woy Woy that are my limit.  I don't see a lot of leg room between the seats either.

The arrogant transport minister how often does he really listen to the commuters and how often does he travel on his pets over any sort of distance.  Maybe in the future he could bus it from his South Coast home/electorate and get on one of his new pets both ways from Kiama on a regular basis when the come in, with luck he may be booted out by then and all we can hope for is that someone can look seriously at commuters concerns.

For me the power points and charging are fine but having them able to get on to the signals so that mobile phones are not cutting out frequently as they do on each of the lines needs to be more of a priority.
a6et
IMHO i think the V sets seats are some of the worst transport seats I have ever sat on. Too narrow and soft. The OSCAR seats are much better. You know back pain can be remediated. I had extreme back pain which a laminectomy cured many years ago.
  a6et Minister for Railways

There were new pictures and info released recently to do with the design of the intercity trains. In the articles it is stated that they chose to have fixed seating so that they can add new features such as tables and charging ports. I think the tables are not necessary as you can eat without them, are one of the reasons why we won’t have reversible seats, are probably gonna be dirty (have gum, spilt drinks and other sticky stuff on them) and not function properly after a few weeks. On the other hand, I do think charging ports are a great idea and believe that a lot of passengers will like this new feature. This feature does not need fixed seating because on reversible seats such as the ones found on V Sets and H Sets, only the backrest moves and so if the port is located on the middle of the arm rest, it can easily be accessed by passengers no matter which way they decide to face. In my opinion, I think the new trains should have Oscar seats with charging ports rather than the new fixed seating they are planning to install. What do you think?
Agree, thing to me after seeing the publicity carriage on the news last night, those seats and the back rests are a concern for me as I have serious back issues, and the thin looking padding looks quite uncomfortable and something I find when having to travel on the current fleet of interurban trains, not including the V sets. Travel to and from Hamilton is a real painful experience for me and lucky on the up to get to Wyong before I begin to get a lot of pain, on the down its usually around Woy Woy that are my limit.  I don't see a lot of leg room between the seats either.

The arrogant transport minister how often does he really listen to the commuters and how often does he travel on his pets over any sort of distance.  Maybe in the future he could bus it from his South Coast home/electorate and get on one of his new pets both ways from Kiama on a regular basis when the come in, with luck he may be booted out by then and all we can hope for is that someone can look seriously at commuters concerns.

For me the power points and charging are fine but having them able to get on to the signals so that mobile phones are not cutting out frequently as they do on each of the lines needs to be more of a priority.
IMHO i think the V sets seats are some of the worst transport seats I have ever sat on. Too narrow and soft. The OSCAR seats are much better. You know back pain can be remediated. I had extreme back pain which a laminectomy cured many years ago.
nswtrains
I had a laminectomy in back 10 years ago, had to fused 6 years ago, neck fused in 2010, head to hospital next week for laser burning of two lower level nerves that the discs are rubbing on, and the OSCARS play havoc on my back but the V sets don't, they provide much better seat cushion help with the softer and thicker padding as well the backs are better contured.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

My solution is to take a seat cushion with me if I am to catch either a v set or an oscar.

The back rest on the v set is not high enough for me and the OSCAR is like a church pew.
  a6et Minister for Railways

My solution is to take a seat cushion with me if I am to catch either a v set or an oscar.

The back rest on the v set is not high enough for me and the OSCAR is like a church pew.
simstrain
Adds to my what I have said if you need to cart a cushion on either type of train, and the way the ones on the prototype newbies look they will be worse.

One of the advantages I find with the V sets is the ledge that runs all along the bottom of the walls gives a bit of foot rest and helps with the back, the Oscars have nothing like it.

Other thing with the new trains is that there is no doors at the end of the carriages meaning those cantilever bags will have to be very strong also the air conditioning much better as well.
  marvin Assistant Commissioner

Location: Mars... "The Earth? Oh, the Earth will be gone in just a few seconds!"
Make no bones about it, Aunt Gladys' paw prints are all over this fixed seating hoo-haa.

Andrew Constance will be the poor sucker who signs off on it.

The original specs for the NIF (New Intercity Fleet) were back in the days of Gladys as transport minister. Fixed seating was always on the agenda.

The stupid part about it is that she was more than aware of the massive passenger backlash when fixed seating was introduced to the then new Tangara fleet. So much so, that neither the following Millennium nor Waratah fleets had fixed general seating. I also have a recollection that a number of the Tangara fleet were re-configured to reversible seating (or that later sets were with reversible seating).

marvin
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  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
I had a laminectomy in back 10 years ago, had to fused 6 years ago, neck fused in 2010, head to hospital next week for laser burning of two lower level nerves that the discs are rubbing on, and the OSCARS play havoc on my back but the V sets don't, they provide much better seat cushion help with the softer and thicker padding as well the backs are better contured.
a6et
Yes it's interesting that people with genuine problems with substandard transport design are finally finding a voice to counteract the smug "I don't have a problem, get over it" attitude that is common.

We've been driving to Sydney and Wollongong from the south coast for a few years now since the V sets went, because with our physical issues the Oscar seats are just too painful on a long journey. The V set seats on the other hand were just sublime. It was a disaster for us losing those trains because driving in traffic to Sydney in particular isn't exactly a picnic!

In addition my wife suffers from vertigo which means she can't ride backwards, which means the NIF's will be given a miss too unless one wins the typical boarding rush for the forward-facing seats (many of whom doing so are probably the hypocrites who say there's no problem facing backwards!). Our young ones seem to tolerate spending 6 hours on Oscars going to and from events in Sydney but I guess you're more resilient when you're young and fit.

By the look of it, the NIF seats are quite thin and hard, but they're presumably (hopefully) ergonomically shaped. Quite honestly, between the chance of poor design input and Korean manufacture, I'm sceptical of them getting it right. We'll see. I also predict that in years to come, the seats will be thrown out and replaced with reversible seats due to voter backlash. It's inevitable in NSW.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

One of the advantages I find with the V sets is the ledge that runs all along the bottom of the walls gives a bit of foot rest and helps with the back, the Oscars have nothing like it.

Other thing with the new trains is that there is no doors at the end of the carriages meaning those cantilever bags will have to be very strong also the air conditioning much better as well.
a6et

Conversely I find that ledge annoying and horrible and hurts my back due to forcing on of my knees up. The new trains are 4 metres shorter then the v's and so I am not sure why the cantilever bags will need to be strong and as far as I am concerned the V set has the worst air conditioning in the fleet. All of the modern 4G's have significantly better AC then the V sets.

I personally believe the former outer suburban tangara seats are the most comfortable. Even though I dislike tangara's in general.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
One of the advantages I find with the V sets is the ledge that runs all along the bottom of the walls gives a bit of foot rest and helps with the back, the Oscars have nothing like it.

Other thing with the new trains is that there is no doors at the end of the carriages meaning those cantilever bags will have to be very strong also the air conditioning much better as well.

Conversely I find that ledge annoying and horrible and hurts my back due to forcing on of my knees up. The new trains are 4 metres shorter then the v's and so I am not sure why the cantilever bags will need to be strong and as far as I am concerned the V set has the worst air conditioning in the fleet. All of the modern 4G's have significantly better AC then the V sets.

I personally believe the former outer suburban tangara seats are the most comfortable. Even though I dislike tangara's in general.
simstrain
In the late 80's I used to go for a lower deck seat on my commute run. The window is just the right height to place my head on. I carried a spare jumper to act as a pillow and the lower ledge placed outside leg on. Got the best sleeps on the V-sets and yes all the trips slept past Gosford were on a V-set. U-boats you'd get woken up going through Woy Woy tunnel, especially the sash windows cars.

If I slept past I usually just caught next train back, but two different night trips after going out with friends for a few hours I walked back from Lisarow at midnight along the highway 10km and another waited 2 hr at Broadmeadow at 2am to catch the exact same train back, also the third time I caught it that night after we all got kicked off at Epping after a freighter pulled the wires down. We got suburbaned to Hornsby via the bridge to wait 10min to catch our same V-set again!
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
I would like a $ for all the hours I have spent sleeping in V-Sets. I found the Woodford bends always woke me up so never slept past Woodford although, as I sometimes parked my car at Hazelbrook, I could get confused. When I first began commuting to Bankstown in 1982 (I moved house from Bexley North), I usually caught the Summit  (retired cars from the day country aircon trains). The First class cars were the best but often full after Hazelbrook. Later I would catch a V-set to Springwood then the U-set that went round to Regents park. Obviously not as comfortable but I usually worked most of the way in the mornings. Otherwise I had to change at Strathfield and go back in the suburban. Changing at Parramatta then Lidcombe meant pushing onto a packed train so very rarely done. I also like the raised ledge as it meant I could put one foot up.
In the very early days I often went home behind a 46. I loved seeing the engine pull into Strathfield, felt I was heading on a country journey, but the old compartment cars were not the best, playing footsies with complete strangers.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
If currently there are some passengers who gain delight from breaking / vandalising even the coat hooks in the V sets......I suppose there is no word then on who will be employed to get the "chewing gum" out of the USB phone charging ports?

And I really don't want to have my possible seat littered with the last persons empty cup in the drink / cup holder.

These "features" are fine and expected in a newly imported motor vehicle, but we are talking public transport here, who thought these things were a "good idea"? Perhaps the build costs and the long-term maintenance $$$ costs for these items could be better spent for the people of NSW by putting the money into comfortable, reversible seating for long-distance commuters.

Regards,

Catchpoint
  tankengine Beginner

I don't like sitting facing backwards but it doesn't cause me any discomfort.  The real issue is the number of seats in each carriage, and the number of carriages available.  

The new trains have "around 80" seats per car, that's 640 seats per eight car train.  An eight car  V Set seats 832.  The new carriages will have 28 seats less than the Oscar carriages.  Seating for Oscar carriages is: driving trailer: 102, motor car: 118, motor car with lavatory:110.

If the new trains have eight cars, they will have around 200 fewer seats than an OSCAR or V-set eight car train.  If the new trains have ten cars they will still have around 32 seats less per train than an eight car V set Fortunately there will be enough new carriages for them to have ten seat sets.  By my calculations (based on Wikipedia figures) there are currently 177 V set carriages and 220 Oscar carriages in service, a total of 397 carriages.  512 of the new type of carriage have been ordered, so there will be 125 - about 25% -  more carriages available than previously.  If we ignore what has happened overseas with the manufacturer of these carriages (they are making very unreliable trains that have to be rebuilt) then the carriages could also be more available, as being of newer construction they should need less maintenance.  20% more carriages are needed to supply 10 carriage trains so there could be some space for more frequent services.  Katoomba platform 1 is to be lengthened 30m to accommodate such 10 car trains (a V set carriage is 23.968 m  long)  and the new trains will have doors that won't open unless they detect a platform in front of them.  

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5503412/fewer-seats-in-new-trains-is-not-a-problem-says-govt/?cs=300

Forget about complaining which direction the seats are facing - you may have trouble getting a seat in the first place!
  a6et Minister for Railways

I don't like sitting facing backwards but it doesn't cause me any discomfort.  The real issue is the number of seats in each carriage, and the number of carriages available.  

The new trains have "around 80" seats per car, that's 640 seats per eight car train.  An eight car  V Set seats 832.  The new carriages will have 28 seats less than the Oscar carriages.  Seating for Oscar carriages is: driving trailer: 102, motor car: 118, motor car with lavatory:110.

If the new trains have eight cars, they will have around 200 fewer seats than an OSCAR or V-set eight car train.  If the new trains have ten cars they will still have around 32 seats less per train than an eight car V set Fortunately there will be enough new carriages for them to have ten seat sets.  By my calculations (based on Wikipedia figures) there are currently 177 V set carriages and 220 Oscar carriages in service, a total of 397 carriages.  512 of the new type of carriage have been ordered, so there will be 125 - about 25% -  more carriages available than previously.  If we ignore what has happened overseas with the manufacturer of these carriages (they are making very unreliable trains that have to be rebuilt) then the carriages could also be more available, as being of newer construction they should need less maintenance.  20% more carriages are needed to supply 10 carriage trains so there could be some space for more frequent services.  Katoomba platform 1 is to be lengthened 30m to accommodate such 10 car trains (a V set carriage is 23.968 m  long)  and the new trains will have doors that won't open unless they detect a platform in front of them.  

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5503412/fewer-seats-in-new-trains-is-not-a-problem-says-govt/?cs=300

Forget about complaining which direction the seats are facing - you may have trouble getting a seat in the first place!
tankengine
Fair comments.  On the Central Coast, Woy Woy, Gosford and Wyong are long enough for 10car trains.  Beyond that Broadmeadow, and #1 platform at Wickham can take them.   Not sure how many on the South Coast are 10 car platforms, although the old terminating station of Dapto may be ok, possibly Wollongong and Waterfall.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
I would like a $ for all the hours I have spent sleeping in V-Sets. I found the Woodford bends always woke me up so never slept past Woodford   snip  
I usually caught the Summit  (retired cars from the day country aircon trains). The First class cars were the best but often full after Hazelbrook. snip
Brianr
The Woodford bends worked for me too when returning home to Hazelbrook, except once when I woke with the train stopped in Hazo station. That generated a very quick exit.

Brian, in the era I occasionally caught the Summit, 77-87, the HUB set cars became the morning Newcastle Express.
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
The Woodford bends worked for me too when returning home to Hazelbrook, except once when I woke with the train stopped in Hazo station. That generated a very quick exit.

Brian, in the era I occasionally caught the Summit, 77-87, the HUB set cars became the morning Newcastle Express.
GrahamH
LOL
As I said, I moved to Woodford (half way between Woodford and Hazo) in January '81. I left the school at Bankstown at the end of '90 and taught casually at TAFE Penrith, Mt Druitt and Blacktown so still used V-sets. However in 1995 I obtained full time work again at Rooty Hill and the school was quite a walk from the station (and I was getting older) so I mostly drove. I retired from full time work towards the end of 2002 and most casual work was found a long way from any station although I did have stints at Blacktown and Petersham. My mother lived in Chatswood and, as she needed caring until passing in 2006, I travelled there 3 days each week although I usually drove on Sundays. Now, since 2010, I live over 2000 km away so a ride on a V-set before they disappear would be nice on one of my very occasional visits to Sydney to see relatives and friends
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
I meant to add the HUB sets travelled to the Mountains as the last train of the evening (12.20am? from Central).  Very occasionally I caught it on a Friday night. That was when you did not want to miss your stop. There was a very large tough woman as guard who was needed to deal with some of the passengers who had imbibed too much. Laughing
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't like sitting facing backwards but it doesn't cause me any discomfort.  The real issue is the number of seats in each carriage, and the number of carriages available.  

The new trains have "around 80" seats per car, that's 640 seats per eight car train.  An eight car  V Set seats 832.  The new carriages will have 28 seats less than the Oscar carriages.  Seating for Oscar carriages is: driving trailer: 102, motor car: 118, motor car with lavatory:110.

If the new trains have eight cars, they will have around 200 fewer seats than an OSCAR or V-set eight car train.  If the new trains have ten cars they will still have around 32 seats less per train than an eight car V set Fortunately there will be enough new carriages for them to have ten seat sets.  By my calculations (based on Wikipedia figures) there are currently 177 V set carriages and 220 Oscar carriages in service, a total of 397 carriages.  512 of the new type of carriage have been ordered, so there will be 125 - about 25% -  more carriages available than previously.  If we ignore what has happened overseas with the manufacturer of these carriages (they are making very unreliable trains that have to be rebuilt) then the carriages could also be more available, as being of newer construction they should need less maintenance.  20% more carriages are needed to supply 10 carriage trains so there could be some space for more frequent services.  Katoomba platform 1 is to be lengthened 30m to accommodate such 10 car trains (a V set carriage is 23.968 m  long)  and the new trains will have doors that won't open unless they detect a platform in front of them.  

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5503412/fewer-seats-in-new-trains-is-not-a-problem-says-govt/?cs=300

Forget about complaining which direction the seats are facing - you may have trouble getting a seat in the first place!
tankengine

Where did you get your information on only 80 seats per carriage. An 8 car v set carries 872 seats and a 10 car nif will be as below.

From my calculation a controller trailer carriage will have 86 seats per train. A motor carriage with toilet will have 88 and a motor carriage will have 96. a trailer is likely to have 96 as well. In a 10 car set that will mean 4x controller trailer, 5 x motors and another trailer (DMTMMD-DMMD). The likely seating amount is 896 with 3 toilets or roughly a normal suburban train load.
  tankengine Beginner

I don't like sitting facing backwards but it doesn't cause me any discomfort.  The real issue is the number of seats in each carriage, and the number of carriages available.  

The new trains have "around 80" seats per car, that's 640 seats per eight car train.  An eight car  V Set seats 832.  The new carriages will have 28 seats less than the Oscar carriages.  Seating for Oscar carriages is: driving trailer: 102, motor car: 118, motor car with lavatory:110.

If the new trains have eight cars, they will have around 200 fewer seats than an OSCAR or V-set eight car train.  If the new trains have ten cars they will still have around 32 seats less per train than an eight car V set Fortunately there will be enough new carriages for them to have ten seat sets.  By my calculations (based on Wikipedia figures) there are currently 177 V set carriages and 220 Oscar carriages in service, a total of 397 carriages.  512 of the new type of carriage have been ordered, so there will be 125 - about 25% -  more carriages available than previously.  If we ignore what has happened overseas with the manufacturer of these carriages (they are making very unreliable trains that have to be rebuilt) then the carriages could also be more available, as being of newer construction they should need less maintenance.  20% more carriages are needed to supply 10 carriage trains so there could be some space for more frequent services.  Katoomba platform 1 is to be lengthened 30m to accommodate such 10 car trains (a V set carriage is 23.968 m  long)  and the new trains will have doors that won't open unless they detect a platform in front of them.  

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5503412/fewer-seats-in-new-trains-is-not-a-problem-says-govt/?cs=300

Forget about complaining which direction the seats are facing - you may have trouble getting a seat in the first place!

Where did you get your information on only 80 seats per carriage. An 8 car v set carries 872 seats and a 10 car nif will be as below.

From my calculation a controller trailer carriage will have 86 seats per train. A motor carriage with toilet will have 88 and a motor carriage will have 96. a trailer is likely to have 96 as well. In a 10 car set that will mean 4x controller trailer, 5 x motors and another trailer (DMTMMD-DMMD). The likely seating amount is 896 with 3 toilets or roughly a normal suburban train load.
simstrain
Great to have some more definite figures.  My information about the V sets came from Wikipedia but I got it checked by a confidential State Rail source who said my numbers were correct.  The numbers for the new carriages came from these two articles, which said (as I said above) "ABOUT 80" seats per carriage.  https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/…/fewer-seats-in-new-…/…https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/…/cc7a22cf175aee53af73df2…
  tankengine Beginner

Does having a 10 carriage train that is up to 30 metres longer than the current eight car train affect the speed at all?  I suppose a longer train has to go slower around bends if it was using the same technology for suspension and linkages etc  but I would hope that the new train is designed to go the same speed or faster with more carriages.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
How many platforms at Central can currently accommodate a 10 car NIF set? or is that another ($cost) elephant not yet in the room....

Regards,

Catchpoint
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Does having a 10 carriage train that is up to 30 metres longer than the current eight car train affect the speed at all?  I suppose a longer train has to go slower around bends if it was using the same technology for suspension and linkages etc  but I would hope that the new train is designed to go the same speed or faster with more carriages.
tankengine
Doesn't really affect speed apart from being in slower sections of track, such as points for longer.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

How many platforms at Central can currently accommodate a 10 car NIF set? or is that another ($cost) elephant not yet in the room....

Regards,

Catchpoint
catchpoint
I don't know the exact platform lengths at Central Terminal, but from my observation, I think just about all platforms can accommodate an 8 car V-set, which is the same nominal length as a 10 car NIF (200m).  The only exception may be platforms 12 and 13, but platforms 13, 14 and 15 are now closed for the metro platforms construction.  When the metro construction is completed, it is my understanding that platforms 13 and 14 will be reinstated and lengthened along with platform 12.  There will be no platform 15 and it begs the question whether the suburban platforms will be renumbered.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

On the matter of the relative seating capacities of the Oscars, V-sets and NIF sets, we shouldn't get too hung up on the latter providing less seating, particularly compared with the Oscars.  The Oscars after all have 3+2 seating, which is not ideal for longer distance Intercity travel, for which they were never intended.  Without getting into the debate about specific numbers, a 10 car NIF set will have close to the same seating capacity as an 8 car V-set, which I suspect was the original design intent.  Comfortable 2+2 seating is more appropriate for long distance travel and maximising the seating capacity should not be the priority.
  M636C Minister for Railways

On the matter of the relative seating capacities of the Oscars, V-sets and NIF sets, we shouldn't get too hung up on the latter providing less seating, particularly compared with the Oscars.  The Oscars after all have 3+2 seating, which is not ideal for longer distance Intercity travel, for which they were never intended.  Without getting into the debate about specific numbers, a 10 car NIF set will have close to the same seating capacity as an 8 car V-set, which I suspect was the original design intent.  Comfortable 2+2 seating is more appropriate for long distance travel and maximising the seating capacity should not be the priority.
Transtopic
Having seen photos of the mockup, it is odd that the fixed seats are shown as all facing the centre of the car, the opposite of the Tangara arrangement where the seats face outward from the centre. This means the majority of passengers will be facing eachother which is likely to be unpopular.

As well as having two plus two seating, losing one seat per row, the revised steps reduce the number of rows in both decks of the double deck section by one.

I cannot imagine what the operator and designers were thinking. When the spin is removed, we are ending up with a train with fewer seats per car with unpopular fixed seating.

If these trains are to replace H sets on the peak hour Gosford and Wyong services, which stop at many stations on the North Shore line (I frequently catch these trains in both the morning and afternoon) there will be many more people standing. Ten car trains can't be used because of platform lengths.

I can predict now the reaction of North Shore passengers finding far fewer seats on their usual train….

Peter

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