Save CLP10

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 10 Aug 2017 10:21
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Those extra handrails were probably attached as an extra safety feature. OH&S frowns upon retrofitted safety gadgets being removed. Good luck gaining accreditation, should that occurr.
And if an authentic conversion back to a CL is truly desired, don't forget to remove the cab A/C that was most likey fitted during the MK rebuild. Sure any crew would love that.
It is what it is now, part of the story. Makes it even more interesting.

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  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
M636C,

Can you forward that information to Bernie Baker? I ask because it’s obvious he did no research other than consulting a Dulux colour chart.

What a horrendous waste of money and resources. All to create something which is neither. Talk about misguided self interest clouding sound judgement and critical thought.
The_trolley

Been a while since I last posted anywhere on here but anyway....

So what engines have you been responsible for retaining of late? Because it would seem that you are just one of those people who play from the sideline and criticize the work of someone else. Not a good look for you is it?
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: Banned
That old chestnut... It was only a matter of time before someone rolled that one out without any knowledge of my or anyone elses backgrounds.

Think of it like a model. If Auscision released a model of a CLP with some CL details like single marker lights painted in Commonwealth Railway's maroon the model railways forum would be overflowing with comments about how incorrect the model is. People would be picking it’s faults and rightly so. Someone wants to do the same to the real deal though and it’s apparently all hail the saviour instead.

Other than asking for money, detail has been pretty thin on the ground. I will say though that the locomotive has not been privately purchased instead it has allegedly been purchased by a "preservation group" using crowdfunded money and a large private donation. I think those who donated get to have some feeling about how the locomotive should be presented and are allowed to feel slightly aggrieved at the thought of the locomotives historic fabric being disturbed to satisfy half baked and financially reckless ideas. I also feel that we can feel hesitant given recent related events. E.g, GM1 sitting out in the weather at Parkes for almost two years now.

I stand by my comments. Good look or not.

Edit: And now people are expected to donate more money for batteries and engine lube oil when a mechanical assessment hasn't even been completed yet alone released to the public? Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
  meh Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think those who donated get to have some feeling about how the locomotive should be presented and are allowed to feel slightly aggrieved at the thought of the locomotives historic fabric being disturbed to satisfy half baked and financially reckless ideas. I also feel that we can feel hesitant given recent related events. E.g, GM1 sitting out in the weather at Parkes for almost two years now.

I stand by my comments. Good look or not.

Edit: And now people are expected to donate more money for batteries and engine lube oil when a mechanical assessment hasn't even been completed yet alone released to the public? Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
The_trolley

I completely disagree with this notion that those who donated get a say in what happens with the loco. As I've said before, donating to this loco was not purchasing shares in it. The idea was to save CLP10 from export and scrap and for it to be preserved and returned to operations, which has been achieved. I put money up for it, very happy that it's saved and sure whatever Streamliners do with it will be appropriate, but it's their business what happens to it.

And again, the initial campaign was to purchase the locomotive from the dealers. So yes they are asking for more to restore it to operating conditions. If you're not happy with that then you don't have to donate, but even if you do your helping them with a cause, not buying a seat at the table.
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: Banned
Meh, I agree with you to an extent. At some stage there needs be a clear division between funding and ownership. At some point the ownership group or body needs to be able to make a decision regardless of the financial contributions made. After all, they are the owners and managers of the locomotive at the end of the day. You’ve got to have a chief at some point.

In saying that though, it’s obvious that there has been a lack of planning and research performed here which has led to the position we’re in now. Even more worrying is the lack of transparency from “Streamliners Australia” and some of the personally worrying decisions we are hearing of in dribs and drabs on Facebook. It was hard enough to find the money to purchase CLP10 yet some of the decisions being made are based on ideals and not on sound research or the locomotives actual condition mechancial or otherwise. In a world where money will see the project succeed or fail, some of the early financial decisions have not been smart ones because they’re not based on sound ideas.

I should also mention that there were people approached in the second stage of crowdfunding who were told the locomotive would stay as CLP10 based on the locomotives condition, cost of restortion and it’s history in an effort to secure their donations. That obviously isn’t happening now.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

At the end of the day, someone, ultimately needs to make the decision as to the restoration. You can't have too many chiefs. And not everybody will be satisfied. So be it, as above you didn't buy a seat at the table.
A massive amount of the finite resource called cash, could be spent appeasing the ideological and rivet counters.
The head guru needs to make that captains call.

I've posted before, more than once. You've saved it from the gas axe full marks.
Make it a goer, paint nice would look fantastic whatever the colour, sell tickets.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
That old chestnut... It was only a matter of time before someone rolled that one out without any knowledge of my or anyone elses backgrounds.
The_trolley
Yeah and for a reason. You never disclosed it. So why should you be exempt from being called on your statement? You still haven't provided it either even after saying that.

Think of it like a model. If Auscision released a model of a CLP with some CL details like single marker lights painted in Commonwealth Railway's maroon the model railways forum would be overflowing with comments about how incorrect the model is. People would be picking it’s faults and rightly so. Someone wants to do the same to the real deal though and it’s apparently all hail the saviour instead.
The_trolley
Ah that old chestnut (that's right I'll quote what you said in this instance). A model of a locomotive is different to the prototype so how you can even make that comparison astounds me. The model is a product made en-mase for a consumer. This locomotive has been retained by donations simply to save it from going to scrap or going overseas (donations which no-one was obligated to make but did so because they wanted to). Models are never 100% correct anyway and there are varying reasons for that. Some legitimate and others not so. This locomotive may one day be returned to absolute original condition when it can no longer be operated on the network but nobody knows if and when at this point. The 'savior' as you put it deserves some credit for saving the engine and providing direction for what happens with it from this point.

Other than asking for money, detail has been pretty thin on the ground. I will say though that the locomotive has not been privately purchased instead it has allegedly been purchased by a "preservation group" using crowdfunded money and a large private donation. I think those who donated get to have some feeling about how the locomotive should be presented and are allowed to feel slightly aggrieved at the thought of the locomotives historic fabric being disturbed to satisfy half baked and financially reckless ideas. I also feel that we can feel hesitant given recent related events. E.g, GM1 sitting out in the weather at Parkes for almost two years now.
The_trolley
Do you know that for sure? Or are you just guessing? Sounds like the later to me. If you don't know why comment. You said yourself 'allegedly' which implies you don't know. That is how pointless rumours start Rolling Eyes

I would mention another group that has in the past asked for donations but we know who they are and I'm not starting a flame war on that.

I stand by my comments. Good look or not.

Edit: And now people are expected to donate more money for batteries and engine lube oil when a mechanical assessment hasn't even been completed yet alone released to the public? Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
The_trolley

Well you do that. If the potential donors have a problem they will raise it I'm sure. People who are not prepared to put their money where their mouth is (or actually put in some physical effort) won't get much of a say, which is fair enough.
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
On their facebook page the group responsible for CLP10 have indicated that a mechanical inspection has been completed and while they haven't released the details of the results yet they have hinted a few times that there might not be too long of a wait before the loco is seen on the main line under its' own power and on the way to Parkes.

"More to come in the next few days on the mechanics in the background. It is exciting and it appears we are close to seeing CLP10 on the move to Parkes."

"Streamliners Australia has settled the paint and painting facility (another story for another time) and are also applying for a THNSW grant for the ICE radio (around $50,000), so this is really the final piece of the puzzle to ensure CLP10 move under its own power!"

Others may have interpreted it differently to me, but the way I'm reading it that the results of the mechanical check-up are favourable and it could be an easy one to get going, hence the batteries and lube (cue sniggers).
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Edit: And now people are expected to donate more money for batteries and engine lube oil when a mechanical assessment hasn't even been completed yet alone released to the public? Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
the_trolley
It doesn't take a noted ferroequinological genius such as yourself to figure out that a loco that hasn't moved under its own power for over 5 years will need new batteries and some fresh oil...
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Edit: And now people are expected to donate more money for batteries and engine lube oil when a mechanical assessment hasn't even been completed yet alone released to the public? Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
It doesn't take a noted ferroequinological genius such as yourself to figure out that a loco that hasn't moved under its own power for over 5 years will need new batteries and some fresh oil...
LancedDendrite
Ferroequinological! That's rusty gold my friend!

I think you might be flogging a dead (iron) horse here though LD

BG
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: Banned
If I wasn’t at work dealing with organising the repair of locomotives I’d type out a bit more. However, I will say that it doesn’t take a “genius” to figure out that batteries and lube oil generally come last especially when you’re dealing with a locomotive that has been stored for five years and an engine that has been uncapped for that period of time.

I stand by my comments. People are being led up the garden path and can’t see it.
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
I tried posting some more info to this but apparently the RP servers said no. Anyway...

Further info from the books of face says CLF1, CLF3, CLP9 and CLP12 are soon to be shipped out from Port Kembla on their one way trip to South Africa, where they'll lose their cabs for something more localised. No details as to when that's going to happen, but I would assume it'll be soon.

As for CLP10, the inspections done have it in a very good condition as Goulburn hasn't had that much rain apparently. They're moving it to Parkes on the 28th of this month all going well and will start on the modifications then. Once that's done it'll be back to CF Rail Services to be repainted. And regarding why this is happening, it's at the request of the mysterious donor who funded the remainder of the purchase price as well as the funds to get it painted. That's well over $100,000 talking there, so snuff at that all you like. Finally, depending on how many people get to work on it, it could easily be in service by the end of the year.
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: Banned
So donating does get you a say then? It just depends on the size of the donation. And, why are we learning through dribs and drabs on Facebook and not official Streamliners Australia commication even if it was posted on the same medium?

I’ll be interested to see how reliable the “restored” CL17/CLP10 will be in traffic given the fact it was one of the least reliable CL’s by the end of QR’s CL operations and is supposedly now good to go with minimal effort.
  ivahri Train Controller

My only concern is that what changes are made to alter the appearance to resemble its original look do not compromise the mechanical reliability of the loco.

Given Bernie Baker's significant support from both major and minor donors I have to believe that he has the knowledge and wisdom to do nothing that would sacrifice reliability. So many could not be wrong...



Richard
  M636C Minister for Railways

My only concern is that what changes are made to alter the appearance to resemble its original look do not compromise the mechanical reliability of the loco.

Given Bernie Baker's significant support from both major and minor donors I have to believe that he has the knowledge and wisdom to do nothing that would sacrifice reliability. So many could not be wrong...



Richard
ivahri
The major change proposed so far is the removal of the cab roof hump.

This just means people in the cab will hit their heads more often since the cab floor was raised.
Even Bernie is probably tall enough to have this problem.

The cab air conditioner outlets are on the cab desktop. not on the roof, (assuming CLP10 is the same as CLF1 which I inspected when it was new). So that won't be affected.

Nobody has mentioned the extra portholes on the angled "mansard" section of the roof yet.
It would look more convincing with these removed but they do provide better illumination in the engine room.

Changing the engine air intake grilles to the original pattern would help the appearance, particularly on the left side where the intakes are more or less the original size.

Since the diesel generator sets are no longer in place (as I understand), replacing the door at the rear wouldn't be hard.

Peter
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

My only concern is that what changes are made to alter the appearance to resemble its original look do not compromise the mechanical reliability of the loco.

Given Bernie Baker's significant support from both major and minor donors I have to believe that he has the knowledge and wisdom to do nothing that would sacrifice reliability. So many could not be wrong...



Richard
The major change proposed so far is the removal of the cab roof hump.

This just means people in the cab will hit their heads more often since the cab floor was raised.
Even Bernie is probably tall enough to have this problem.

The cab air conditioner outlets are on the cab desktop. not on the roof, (assuming CLP10 is the same as CLF1 which I inspected when it was new). So that won't be affected.

Nobody has mentioned the extra portholes on the angled "mansard" section of the roof yet.
It would look more convincing with these removed but they do provide better illumination in the engine room.

Changing the engine air intake grilles to the original pattern would help the appearance, particularly on the left side where the intakes are more or less the original size.

Since the diesel generator sets are no longer in place (as I understand), replacing the door at the rear wouldn't be hard.

Peter
M636C
Why not just leave it the way it is presently. They look great with the hump. Just get it going.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
The roof humps look tough, leave it, save it, don't waste money on it.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Might get me bared, but just a "feeding frenzy" for the rivet counters.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Might get me bared, but just a "feeding frenzy" for the rivet counters.
michaelgm

No, the Railpage system  caught your words, and I just edited it a little, as it is a valid point :

No matter what is written here, on facebook etc, the People doing the hard work saving it will do it their way. Unless I decide to cough up a LOT of money I too are a voice  in the either.

We can discuss the changes etc until the cows come home. But we all shoudlbe aware nothing we say here wil have an impact. So by all means talk away, wish, or demand whatever you like. Just be happy the loco will be staying in Australia. That is the reward we all  want, and thank the people like Bernie and all the contributors.

And of course we all will watch it's progress as history still get made !
  ssaunders Chief Train Controller

I tried posting some more info to this but apparently the RP servers said no. Anyway...

Further info from the books of face says CLF1, CLF3, CLP9 and CLP12 are soon to be shipped out from Port Kembla on their one way trip to South Africa, where they'll lose their cabs for something more localised. No details as to when that's going to happen, but I would assume it'll be soon.

As for CLP10, the inspections done have it in a very good condition as Goulburn hasn't had that much rain apparently. They're moving it to Parkes on the 28th of this month all going well and will start on the modifications then. Once that's done it'll be back to CF Rail Services to be repainted. And regarding why this is happening, it's at the request of the mysterious donor who funded the remainder of the purchase price as well as the funds to get it painted. That's well over $100,000 talking there, so snuff at that all you like. Finally, depending on how many people get to work on it, it could easily be in service by the end of the year.
Greensleeves

So it's moving on the 28th, I don't think so.
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
That was then. The move has now been canned with issues on one of the bearings, with a lift required for further investigation
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

OK dthead, you said get into so.
Perhaps purchase the unit in best condition, the seller surely was aware of the significance being the last made. And priced accordingly. A few decals and number boards, much cheaper. Stated somewhere earlier, CLP10 was unreliable.? I wouldn't know. And down the track, most wouldn't know either, if it CL17 CLP10 or any other CL CLF or CLP for that matter. Historically significant, absolutely, but a Piece if Smeg? Time will tell.

Ducking for cover now.Very Happy
  M636C Minister for Railways

CLP10 was unreliable.?

It always amazed me that the CLPs and CLFs kept going at all in Aurizon service.
Even back when they were the main intermodal motive power, they had rust holes right through the nose with loose panels elsewhere. I had checked out CLF1 when it was fairly new in AN hands and it looked like you'd expect from a new locomotive.

With a sympathetic mechanic, you could probably find all of the weak points and fix them.

The ATN L class were worse. I remember an up grain train stopping in Goulburn while the crew refilled the L class water tanks (and radiators) from the garden hose on the platform. It wasn't going to get much further without cooling water. The two 830s were OK, apparently, but wouldn't make it on their own.

Just having someone to check oil and water levels will be a big help.

Peter
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: Banned
No, no, no!

We’ve already been told that new batteries, a few drums of Caltex Delo and a couple of hours with an angle grinder and some bog in Parkes is going to solve everything.

Have faith, “brother”!
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Well breaking news, an Indian Pacicfic will be hauled west with CL17 and GM1, to Parkes. Shadowed by a heritage train dragged along by 3801, 3830 and R766. An option to convert another R class from Victoria to STandard gauge for this one off event is still an option at this stage but hopefully garret 6042, yep the one from Forbes will be drained of flood water and operational.

No time line has been provided.
But, the trolley, that bog, is good stuff.

Keepin the faith, brother.

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