what surprises me the most about this project is that it's entirely underground, it May be a bit more cost effective to build some sections above ground

If you take a look at my post on the previous page Dan, you’ll see that only the eastern half will be below ground. The western half will likely use the existing corridors for the most part.

But property acquisition costs a fortune and has a high political price as well. Realistically the only option for a new reservation of any sort through the eastern burbs is underground.

JZ

Lots of press statements, but has a sod of dirt been moved yet?
Time keeps slipping, but might eventually happen.

Latest press end of May was "appointment" of a contractor - not yet the same as all signed and financed.

But still it's only ONE hotel.  In the scheme of things so what!
Does it justify the public infrasture spend you suggest? Gandalls and Accor would say "yes", but of course they are rent  seekers of the highest order.

cheers
John

Construction of the new hotel tower at Chadstone SC is underway now & they've all ready put up 2-3 floors. Doing the foundation at the same time as the neighbouring office tower helped there. Also Eastland apparently also has a small hotel in its footprint, though I don't know where the reception for it is.

I'm more wondering why Glen Waverley instead of another  point along that line as the diversion to get to there from Monash & then towards Deakin Burwood isn't making sense.

[quote=mejhammers1]@potatoinmymouth. It is nothing short of an electioneering ploy. I am impressed with the crossing removals and the Mernda extension how ever this project has not been thought out, will cost nearer $100 billion and comes across as a thought bubble from the premier's office. If they want connectivity between lines simply expand the Smart Bus Orbital network. [/quote]
With all due respect Michael, I don’t really see how the fact that something is announced as an election promise is a credible argument against it. Here’s why I think that:

First of all, this clearly [i]has[/i] been thought out. I think if you read the documents on the website you’ll find it’s the most thorough support for an election promise in a long time, [i]especially[i/] given the fact it doesn’t fit electoral cycle timing. Full business cases as demanded by Liberals (ironically given their performance in 2014) take time and cost money. On this Dan has put his money where his mouth is and allocated $300 million and 4 years to come up with the best implementation of the concept.

While we are on the subject of funding the idea that this is “unfunded” is pretty deliberately misleading. Remember that between the state gov and the feds there is already $10 billion on the table for the airport link. Now we actually have an idea of why they were prepared to stump up so much. So a business case funded [i]and[/i] the first stage of construction basically locked in.

Lastly, I simply don’t follow why the announcement of a policy before an election is inherently undesirable. In my understanding that’s precisely how it should work: the government and opposition present competing visions of their jurisdiction over the next term of government, and the voters decide which they prefer. The public and the press have been clamouring for decades for governments with vision that extends beyond that next election, and here we are, yet they are met with the nebulous accusations of “electioneering”.

Criticising policies based on speculation about their genesis and motives leads to harmful hyperpartisanship. Far better we debate them on their merits, and there are many claims about this project which can and should be subjected to scrutiny.

Seems to be merit in the 15 year build time:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/thirty-years-experts-say-rail-loop-could-be-built-in-half-the-time-20180829-p500ie.html

Bevans if you think about it they chose Monash right between Rowville and Chadstone.

Guess what's connecting those two together?
Light-rail you guessed it.

When you combine the orbital rail line and light-rail proposal it makes so such sense.
I don't think this is workable.  Public Transport solutions these days should be designed for high productivity pairs.  People will want to go to and from Chadstone SS for more than shopping.  Dinning and cinema etc.

If I had to take the bus, train and train to the shopping centre I would probably drive.

Conversely, Is the Doncaster station planned to be at the Shopping Centre?

I agree Monash is required.  Are we missing a heavy rail link between Monash and another line?

The Glen has cinemas, as does Doncaster and Cheltenham (southland)

As seen in this map, Chadstone is a big swing away from Monash whoever you draw the line. Chadstone is better served by connecting it via alemein and future rowville rail.


https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1JqtsS3n4Hurzi69zPIWU-Niq35IoaFTz&ll=-37.80347641439248%2C144.99113219629635&z=11

An interesting question would be, where will the trains be stabled? Obviously seastern suburbs somewhere due to the fact it would be stage 1 operating first. Maybe a station and stabling yards on the surface around Clarinda or Heatherton?

While scopes could be debated endlessly and there not being much objection to the vision, how does the state propose to fund the capital and with that how can the costs of building and operating the service be recovered?  Knowing that the infrastructure will drive a ring of investment and capital growth to both private and commercial property values, how doe this work with policy going forward?

Or is it a case that the entire state merely subsidises it and recovers it through increased economic activity at more arms length?  

1.5bn x30 years is 45billion, plenty of money to build it and not too big of an impact on the budget when it is spread out, a big hit in costs initially but once everything is online the year to year cost would drop a bit.

how come they didn't include the Sandringham Line?? possible Inner Suburban Rail Loop maybe?

A little odd, but they could probably put in a tram to run down Bay Road to Southland 'on the cheap' (comparatively of course)

And Re: Hotel @ Chadstone chat, it is being built now, they're on level 4 already.

Re the Chadstone hotel chat.

good to see the 250 room Novatel @ Chaddy is out if the ground,
a complement to the existing 200 room Novatel @ The Glen

I've forgotten what the point is

cheers
John

Shower thought... If they are running driver-less trains that means we need a new system. That means more money spent of an AI, control center and train. or will HCMTs be able to convert to driver-less? If this does happen, I hope the company responsible for making such a system isn't the one who made myki haha.

But seriously, will we need another new train? Will we see Comengs running until we get driver-less ones?

@penguin2233 the pre-cursors for a fully automated driverless line are there.

New track and signals
New stations
Single line with no branches
High speed required

ATO to some extent is the norm for all manufacturere. London DLR has been auto for 30 years.
ATO is retro fiited to manual for backward places like Victoria.

Only "minor" issue of  staffing to be resolved.


cheers
John

Seems to be merit in the 15 year build time:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/thirty-years-experts-say-rail-loop-could-be-built-in-half-the-time-20180829-p500ie.html

There's one problem with this article.

Crossrail uses a lot of existing track. The only new section is Paddington-Stratford/Abbey Wood.

I think a 30 year time frame makes sense, it allows people who have been developing their skills through cadetships to gain a sense of job security, and if it is being built in sections, than specific skills in one area will not be needed for the whole duration, freeing people up for other projects such as Metro II. A long term rail project would also convince people who are already skilled to stay or come to Victoria to take on positions.

The main cost of a TBM I would imagine is getting the thing in the ground, once it is in there, you just keep it running for as long as you need it. The stations would be the expensive bits.

In any case, it is good that a government is out campaigning for more Public Transport. Although my cynical side tells me that they've rushed this forwards after seeing the positive buzz that Mernda rail has generated over the last two weeks vs what they've got regarding their road projects.

what surprises me the most about this project is that it's entirely underground, it May be a bit more cost effective to build some sections above ground

The question would be this there land for it to be above ground?

The answer is unfortunately no. With exception to the western half of the proposal.

Unless the rail line ran directly along an existing freeway/freight rail corridor, it would be unlikely to see it above ground. The eastern/norther sections is along established neighborhoods unfortunately and there is no rail reservation along that section that has been proposed. It'll have be tunnels.

Also to all those adding extra stations to the proposal, this rail line is proposed to run at high speeds up to 130km/hr according to Dan himself. It's a high speed semi-orbital rail line.

Oh yeah for those bashing on how the western section is neglected compared with the east. The western section is in early development compared with east/north. They would definitely add 2-3 stations along that section. Trust me, that's the easiest section and probably would be the quickest to get completed.

As said it's done in stages, RRL was done in stages as well. I'm just hoping that they reduce the timeframe from 30 down to 20 years, it's definitely a reachable aim. Other projects of this scale are able to get done at a reasonable budget and timeframe, hope Melbourne follows through a similiar approach to these major infrastructure projects, by employing the best in the engineering field to get this project going.

News Corp laying into the loop. Clearly the Libs have no counter-proposal and the only option is to do a hatchet job on this one!
……………………………………………….

Page 1 (& others) in The Age
Page 17 (& only) in the Herald-Sun (to be fair there was the Ticketek AFL finals seats ticketing fiasco)

@penguin2233 the pre-cursors for a fully automated driverless line are there.

New track and signals
New stations
Single line with no branches
High speed required

ATO to some extent is the norm for all manufacturere. London DLR has been auto for 30 years.
ATO is retro fiited to manual for backward places like Victoria.

Only "minor" issue of  staffing to be resolved.


cheers
John

ATO? Automatic Train Operations?
So HCMTs can be fitted with automatic control?

@penguin2233 the pre-cursors for a fully automated driverless line are there.

New track and signals
New stations
Single line with no branches
High speed required

ATO to some extent is the norm for all manufacturere. London DLR has been auto for 30 years.
ATO is retro fiited to manual for backward places like Victoria.

Only "minor" issue of  staffing to be resolved.


cheers
John

ATO? Automatic Train Operations?
So HCMTs can be fitted with automatic control?

This is an interesting question because unless the Sunshine-Airport route is four tracked, then there will be interaction with the 'existing' network, given it will be used by both City-Sunshine-Airport and SRL services.

@guyd im only worried about running out of rolling stock, what if train failure and there isnt another train to take over the shift that is driverless

@penguin2233 the pre-cursors for a fully automated driverless line are there.

New track and signals
New stations
Single line with no branches
High speed required

ATO to some extent is the norm for all manufacturere. London DLR has been auto for 30 years.
ATO is retro fiited to manual for backward places like Victoria.

Only "minor" issue of  staffing to be resolved.


cheers
John

ATO? Automatic Train Operations?
So HCMTs can be fitted with automatic control?

This is an interesting question because unless the Sunshine-Airport route is four tracked, then there will be interaction with the 'existing' network, given it will be used by both City-Sunshine-Airport and SRL services.

Sunshine: mere details to be worked out in 10-20 years. A lot in railway design will happen before then.

penguin, good pickup on NABA

regarding driverless HCMT, short answer "yes, sort of"

Its not in the HCMT spec. for obvious reasons,
but the units are being provided by Changchun, which supplies EMU for automated Hong Kong MTR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Island_line
The technical know how is already there. Hells bells, even Bombardier and Alstom do it elsewhere.

cheers
John

@guyd im only worried about running out of rolling stock, what if train failure and there isnt another train to take over the shift that is driverless

same answer as for current. If the driver doesn't show up ,the train doesn't run.

On a 10 minute service, small pain.
5 minute service, few would notice.

cheers
John

@jdkorte It is nothing but blatant electioneering. By all reports the election is too close to call.

It is total pie in the sky. It is not hard to get s bunch of consultants to draw up a map and concoct a word salad to create a report.

The State Govt has cut short the e-tram program have issues with both Metro and V/line networks and Melbourne' bus network is woeful.

Fix the current system first. Make sure we have modern equipment and as for linking train lines expand the Bus Network. Cosign this expensive boondogge to the bin.

Michael

what surprises me the most about this project is that it's entirely underground, it May be a bit more cost effective to build some sections above ground

The question would be this there land for it to be above ground?

The answer is unfortunately no. With exception to the western half of the proposal.

Unless the rail line ran directly along an existing freeway/freight rail corridor, it would be unlikely to see it above ground. The eastern/norther sections is along established neighborhoods unfortunately and there is no rail reservation along that section that has been proposed. It'll have be tunnels.

And would they even want it above ground? Being below ground provides security from trespassers. Combined with the curtain barrier doors at stations this makes is very difficult for ne'er de wells to get onto the tracks. Combine this will some CCV cameras with auto alarm function or similar at strategic points and you have a fairly bullet proof system.

The station barrier doors also make it certain IMHO that this will be an ATO or semi-autonomous operation (with observers) as the automation is better for placing train at the exact point for the door system.

BG

@guyd im only worried about running out of rolling stock, what if train failure and there isnt another train to take over the shift that is driverless

As the map seems to avoid a few sections of track that were part of the original outer loop, it would imply the plan is to buold a completely stand alone loop railway. Why would you want to ruin its reliability by mixing with existing lines which have enough problems now?

If they do this they can build what ever they like using the latest and greatest technology especially if it means saving money in both construction and operation.

@guyd im only worried about running out of rolling stock, what if train failure and there isnt another train to take over the shift that is driverless

As the map seems to avoid a few sections of track that were part of the original outer loop, it would imply the plan is to buold a completely stand alone loop railway. Why would you want to ruin its reliability by mixing with existing lines which have enough problems now?

If they do this they can build what ever they like using the latest and greatest technology especially if it means saving money in both construction and operation.

the whole thing is independent from the existing lines, some stations are interchanges with other lines. however, we do need a new train which means more money, or we can change some HCMTs to driverless. my only concern is with having enough trains to run the SRL that are "driverless". this will probably mean a new maintenance depot and new trains (or refitting HCMTs) and the original question was if the line will be fully driverless or manual or both.

Yes

Also to all those adding extra stations to the proposal, this rail line is proposed to run at high speeds up to 130km/hr according to Dan himself. It's a high speed semi-orbital rail line.

Whats the point of a high speed orbital rail? Chances are, this train is already quicker even with extra stations than bus connections and going in and out of the city.

Seems like a decent idea but why is it underground? Surely skyrail is the cheaper and faster solution.

@guyd im only worried about running out of rolling stock, what if train failure and there isnt another train to take over the shift that is driverless

As the map seems to avoid a few sections of track that were part of the original outer loop, it would imply the plan is to buold a completely stand alone loop railway. Why would you want to ruin its reliability by mixing with existing lines which have enough problems now?

If they do this they can build what ever they like using the latest and greatest technology especially if it means saving money in both construction and operation.

the whole thing is independent from the existing lines, some stations are interchanges with other lines. however, we do need a new train which means more money, or we can change some HCMTs to driverless. my only concern is with having enough trains to run the SRL that are "driverless". this will probably mean a new maintenance depot and new trains (or refitting HCMTs) and the original question was if the line will be fully driverless or manual or both.

Thanks for that.

I think you will find that any new railway needs additional rolling stock to support it. So yes, as the Loop is built and opened, new trains will need to be procured. If its automated, then forget transplanting trains from existing network as those trains will already be in operation.

Yes, it will most likely need its own maintenance depo and multiple storage yards regardless of driver mode.