Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This is interesting on many levels but the biggest to me is the age old gauge question - what gauge is it proposed to be?
BrentonGolding
Already emailed them about the pressing issue of the gauge.
And BG it's My Job to rant about the gauge issue and I doubt after the Murray Basin and Albury debacle any more lines will be going SG for years

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I wouldn't be taking much notice to lines on a map presented by media outlets until the full development plan / business case has been completed.
Nightfire
Sorry, I did mean to add that this could simply be an amateur hour error by the map maker.

However it is still interesting that it contains the link to the GV line which the Gov suggested only days ago will go SG

I very much doubt that this AirRail proposal was done without extensive consultation with PTV / TFV or some other level of the bureaucracy in Vic. And I would be even more surprised if someone on the inside wasn't feeding info to the consortium from inside the public service to help their planning. Way too much at stake ($15Bn project) for that.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Interestingly the video on the site has a map showing integration with the Seymour / Shepparton lines and the proposed SRL but not Bendigo via Clarkefield.

This is interesting on many levels but the biggest to me is the age old gauge question - what gauge is it proposed to be? There are pretty obvious signals coming from VicGov recently about Seymour / Shepp going SG so how is this integration going to occur? Are the proposed extra paths for Geelong / Ballarat / Bendigo to be achieved by running Seymour / Shepp services via a new SG Airport link?

Trying to get my head around this so the above is only very early theorising, happy to have any blatant errors in my thinking pointed out to me!

BG
BrentonGolding

Try not to over analyse it...finer details will become apparent in the fullness...

M.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Given that last week the minister was asking for submissions, and this week we get a well polished, media ready package of a proposal, I am certain the two are related. The government would not ask for submissions if it did not know what it was going to get and choose.

2 extra tracks to Sunshine lines up with Dan's speech from a while back about High Speed rail to Geelong.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Try not to over analyse it...finer details will become apparent in the fullness...

M.
The Vinelander
You spoil all my fun...

B.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
This is interesting on many levels but the biggest to me is the age old gauge question - what gauge is it proposed to be?
Already emailed them about the pressing issue of the gauge.
And BG it's My Job to rant about the gauge issue and I doubt after the Murray Basin and Albury debacle any more lines will be going SG for years
Dangersdan707
You misunderstand me Sir! Far from ranting I was merely opening the door for you, a man far more fit for the task of ranting than I.

I remain, yours faithfully

BG
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This is interesting on many levels but the biggest to me is the age old gauge question - what gauge is it proposed to be?
Already emailed them about the pressing issue of the gauge.
And BG it's My Job to rant about the gauge issue and I doubt after the Murray Basin and Albury debacle any more lines will be going SG for years
You misunderstand me Sir! Far from ranting I was merely opening the door for you, a man far more fit for the task of ranting than I.

I remain, yours faithfully

BG
BrentonGolding
Apologies Sir

Now, I may begin
Who has come up with the idea of an SG Melbourne suburban line and SGing the Goulburn Valley and Seymour? NSW gauge Will never Be allowed in Melbourne suburban Heavy rail operations, Broad Gauge did nothing wrong. SMEG 4,8 return to NSW your precious homeland of Rome where you belong with the chariot wheel. Go to hell Murray Basin Project. Satans Minion is NSW gauge. NSW gauge did 9/11 in Chile and also did Marilinga explosions. Brazil and Ireland Best Freinds with best gauge solution. Simstrain *censored* *Censored* *Censored* and NSW gauge smeg *censored*. Melbourne better than Sydney, We have EMU's First (ignore Tasmania). SA betray us, so did Paul Keating in 1995 they must be taught to love BG again. CR Betray of 1901 and betrayal of Silverton and SA government NEVER FORGET. Remember all the Broad gauge that has died fighting for a strong rail network of 5 feet and 3 inches.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I gotta say, a sense of humour is way too often lacking among the railway peanut gallery. Good on you Dan.

As to the airport rail link, I can’t believe we’re now seriously talking about $15 billion to get a train there. IF this very, um, flexible, plan has the proposed benefits for regional services, I’m a little more receptive, but it’s very ironic to see the perennial Labor critics go quiet now the private sector has drawn an even more vague line on a map. It just doesn’t end well. See also: Sydney.

I also saw a guy sponsoring ads on Facebook today ranting about how this version of the MARL must go through the city loop. I sincerely hope he’s not connected in any way to the consortium (I doubt it, but I’d believe anything.)

Speaking of the consortium, it’s also interesting to see Metro’s holding company Metro Trains Australia making an appearance with their own corporate identity and logo. No doubt they are angling for other suburban rail systems and I would not be surprised - given this has appeared in the while - if a privatisation/franchise is secretly in the works elsewhere.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
As to the airport rail link, I can’t believe we’re now seriously talking about $15 billion to get a train there. IF this very, um, flexible, plan has the proposed benefits for regional services, I’m a little more receptive, but it’s very ironic to see the perennial Labor critics go quiet now the private sector has drawn an even more vague line on a map. It just doesn’t end well. See also: Sydney.

I also saw a guy sponsoring ads on Facebook today ranting about how this version of the MARL must go through the city loop. I sincerely hope he’s not connected in any way to the consortium (I doubt it, but I’d beli!ve anything.)

Speaking of the consortium, it’s also interesting to see Metro’s holding company Metro Trains Australia making an appearance with their own corporate identity and logo. No doubt they are angling for other suburban rail systems and I would not be surprised - given this has appeared in the while - if a privatisation/franchise is secretly in the works elsewhere.
potatoinmymouth
Firstly it's either Ironic or is isn't - it certainly aint "very ironic"! Cool

Secondly I don't see where the Labour critics fit into this - this looks to me like a "dorothy dixer" proposal done under the guise of the Victorian Government's Market-led innitiative policy which I think was implemented by the previous coalition government but then embraced by the Andrew's Government https://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/infrastructure-investment/market-led-proposals

The gov gets the MARL project that it never wanted until the feds stumped up $5bn for it but absolves itself of most of the responsibility, is able to "greenfield" the project to whatever end and all the while make it look like it was all their idea!

BG
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I gotta say, a sense of humour is way too often lacking among the railway peanut gallery. Good on you Dan.

As to the airport rail link, I can’t believe we’re now seriously talking about $15 billion to get a train there. IF this very, um, flexible, plan has the proposed benefits for regional services, I’m a little more receptive, but it’s very ironic to see the perennial Labor critics go quiet now the private sector has drawn an even more vague line on a map. It just doesn’t end well. See also: Sydney.

I also saw a guy sponsoring ads on Facebook today ranting about how this version of the MARL must go through the city loop. I sincerely hope he’s not connected in any way to the consortium (I doubt it, but I’d believe anything.)

Speaking of the consortium, it’s also interesting to see Metro’s holding company Metro Trains Australia making an appearance with their own corporate identity and logo. No doubt they are angling for other suburban rail systems and I would not be surprised - given this has appeared in the while - if a privatisation/franchise is secretly in the works elsewhere.
potatoinmymouth
$15B is obscene and should set of alarm bells that immediately stop the project until a more sensible alternative is found.
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

$15B is obscene and should set of alarm bells that immediately stop the project until a more sensible alternative is found.
RTT_Rules
For $15 Bn, I'd expect the rail to start underground out Richmond way and be underground all the way to Sunshine. And continue to Sunbury.  What is obscene is the 20 lanes on the Eastern Freeway. That need some big questions asked. But thats off topic...
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
And yet again another brainfart idea to waste $15B.

MARL @ $5B is reasonable given the complex station at the airport. $10B is acceptable if delivers lots of needed improvement to western Vic connections.
But $15B is just making stuff up so consortiums can spend big and make big profits.

On what planet would anybody consider SCS to be the best terminal?

1. No room for a metro track be used as a turn back, they are chockers. Using Vline platforms even sillier, in/out of that maze every 10 minutes is fantasy.
UNLESS a big chunk of dollars to re-do the whole SCS catastophy, underground platforms, etc etc ha ha ha

2. SCS is the worst possible introduction to a city, and I have seen some shockers . Nothing there but offices, crap shops, cheap back packers, and sleeze.
All the decent sights and accomodation are at the other end of town - served by MM1 or the Loop.
EXCEPT the casino (maybe I just answered my own question)

I have said it before on this thread, and will continue.
There is plenty of room on the existing paths Dynon to Sunshine to utilize with better design. More paths and tunnels is a lazy expensive solution looking for a non existent problem.



end rant
cheers
John
  skitz Chief Commissioner

I gotta say, a sense of humour is way too often lacking among the railway peanut gallery. Good on you Dan.

As to the airport rail link, I can’t believe we’re now seriously talking about $15 billion to get a train there. IF this very, um, flexible, plan has the proposed benefits for regional services, I’m a little more receptive, but it’s very ironic to see the perennial Labor critics go quiet now the private sector has drawn an even more vague line on a map. It just doesn’t end well. See also: Sydney.

I also saw a guy sponsoring ads on Facebook today ranting about how this version of the MARL must go through the city loop. I sincerely hope he’s not connected in any way to the consortium (I doubt it, but I’d believe anything.)

Speaking of the consortium, it’s also interesting to see Metro’s holding company Metro Trains Australia making an appearance with their own corporate identity and logo. No doubt they are angling for other suburban rail systems and I would not be surprised - given this has appeared in the while - if a privatisation/franchise is secretly in the works elsewhere.
$15B is obscene and should set of alarm bells that immediately stop the project until a more sensible alternative is found.
RTT_Rules
Utopia anybody?

Want a bikkie?
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

$15 Billion is on the money for this project.

Upgrade of Southern Cross Station to clean up the current mess with platform and construct dedicated Airtrain Platform segregated from the remainder of the network.

13Kms of underground Tunnel

New underground/above ground interchange at Sunshine and associated infrastructure to enable Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo services to use the new direct Tunnel to SCS.

Then an additional track pair to the airport, with another underground station.

Plus new rolling stock.


Things that aren't in the shiny videos

10 Minute frequency to the airport gives us 6TPH, plus 16TPH for regional services give us 22TPH which sounds like conventional line side signalling. I would expect HCS with 32TPH in a brand new tunnel with dedicated rolling stock. Even so, 16TPH for regional services gives us a ten minute frequency (6TPH) to Geelong (which it currently enjoys at the expense of Ballarat) 6TPH to Ballarat (with future upgrades) and the remainder to Bendigo.

The government is feeding them information, the proposal already has a lot of details in it including the SRL which only came to light a few weeks ago. The government doesn't need the business case, it has already decided what route it is going to use. The Business case will be released after the election. No good for Dan. He can accept the market led proposal and take it to the election as a fully funded plan. The Feds will stump up the money ether way, they are not going to pull 5 billion from Victoria when they are on the nose here.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

10 Minute frequency to the airport gives us 6TPH, plus 16TPH for regional services give us 22TPH which sounds like conventional line side signalling. I would expect HCS with 32TPH in a brand new tunnel with dedicated rolling stock. Even so, 16TPH for regional services gives us a ten minute frequency (6TPH) to Geelong (which it currently enjoys at the expense of Ballarat) 6TPH to Ballarat (with future upgrades) and the remainder to Bendigo.
Lockie91
Geelong runs 3TPH outside of peak. Not at the expense of Ballarat, but because
1. It has the patronage to sustain such a service and
2. It has the infrastructure to allow such a service

When Ballarat can fill a 6 car V/Lo every 20 minutes then it will get the funding required to do so.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

...
Upgrade of Southern Cross Station to clean up the current mess with platform and construct dedicated Airtrain Platform segregated from the remainder of the network.

...
Lockie91
But why?

Absolutely agree SCS needs a major makeover and I'd really like to see a substantial sum of money being spent on it. But a "dedicated Airtrain Platform" is propping up the profits of a private consortium at a negligible benefit, or possibly even a detriment, to the broader rail network. If the Airtrain itself is going to be sharing infrastructure with regional services along the route, then the SCS upgrade needs to preserve and improve operational flexibility.

Wouldn't mind some discussion of how to improve track access, actually. If there's interest maybe a separate thread?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
...
Upgrade of Southern Cross Station to clean up the current mess with platform and construct dedicated Airtrain Platform segregated from the remainder of the network.

...
But why?

Absolutely agree SCS needs a major makeover and I'd really like to see a substantial sum of money being spent on it. But a "dedicated Airtrain Platform" is propping up the profits of a private consortium at a negligible benefit, or possibly even a detriment, to the broader rail network. If the Airtrain itself is going to be sharing infrastructure with regional services along the route, then the SCS upgrade needs to preserve and improve operational flexibility.

Wouldn't mind some discussion of how to improve track access, actually. If there's interest maybe a separate thread?
potatoinmymouth
Airport trains in cities that I travel to have dedicated platforms for Airport services, some run on dedicated tracks, others like the Malpensa Express in Sweet home Milano share tracks with regional services but still have dedicated platforms.

Airport trains will be running to a dedicated 10 Min frequency for most of the day so IMO would take up a whole platform themselves for most of the day. Having their own platform removes the temptation for V/Line to park an Airport service out near North Melbourne while they scratch their heads looking for a platform like they currently do with many services into SC.

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

...
Upgrade of Southern Cross Station to clean up the current mess with platform and construct dedicated Airtrain Platform segregated from the remainder of the network.

...
But why?

Absolutely agree SCS needs a major makeover and I'd really like to see a substantial sum of money being spent on it. But a "dedicated Airtrain Platform" is propping up the profits of a private consortium at a negligible benefit, or possibly even a detriment, to the broader rail network. If the Airtrain itself is going to be sharing infrastructure with regional services along the route, then the SCS upgrade needs to preserve and improve operational flexibility.

Wouldn't mind some discussion of how to improve track access, actually. If there's interest maybe a separate thread?
Having their own platform removes the temptation for V/Line to park an Airport service out near North Melbourne while they scratch their heads looking for a platform like they currently do with many services into SC.
BrentonGolding
...and I'm convinced. Never forget the V/Line factor!
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Also interesting that SkyBus has taken out a full-page ad in today's Herald Sun stating their broad support for an Airport Rail Link. Are they somehow tied to this consortium?
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

10 Minute frequency to the airport gives us 6TPH, plus 16TPH for regional services give us 22TPH which sounds like conventional line side signalling. I would expect HCS with 32TPH in a brand new tunnel with dedicated rolling stock. Even so, 16TPH for regional services gives us a ten minute frequency (6TPH) to Geelong (which it currently enjoys at the expense of Ballarat) 6TPH to Ballarat (with future upgrades) and the remainder to Bendigo.
Geelong runs 3TPH outside of peak. Not at the expense of Ballarat, but because
1. It has the patronage to sustain such a service and
2. It has the infrastructure to allow such a service

When Ballarat can fill a 6 car V/Lo every 20 minutes then it will get the funding required to do so.
John.Z
during the peaks it is at capacity thanks to Caroline Springs and Deer Park, this might change when Melton gets sparked. A 20 minute peak service to Ballarat and Bendigo are warranted now, the infrastructure doesn't allow it. RRL has a capacity of 14TPH most of these are taken up by Geelong.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

...
Upgrade of Southern Cross Station to clean up the current mess with platform and construct dedicated Airtrain Platform segregated from the remainder of the network.

...
But why?

Absolutely agree SCS needs a major makeover and I'd really like to see a substantial sum of money being spent on it. But a "dedicated Airtrain Platform" is propping up the profits of a private consortium at a negligible benefit, or possibly even a detriment, to the broader rail network. If the Airtrain itself is going to be sharing infrastructure with regional services along the route, then the SCS upgrade needs to preserve and improve operational flexibility.

Wouldn't mind some discussion of how to improve track access, actually. If there's interest maybe a separate thread?
potatoinmymouth
The yard at southern cross will have to be reconfigured regardless of who builds the Airport line. Mainly a tunnel portal will have to go there somewhere. Track and stabling will have to be reconfigured to allow Airport Trains to have their own platforms lets say 2 & 3. As mentioned with a 10 minute frequency this will take up two platforms for most of the day. Regional trains will need to emerge from the portal and still have access to platforms 4 thru 8.

Their will still be some need for stabling outside Southern Cross, hopefully the new yard at Dynon will solve a lot of the issues V/line has currently.

Standard Gauge trains will still need access to platform 1 via the RRL flyover at North Melbourne and Wyndham Vale services will take up Platform 15 & 16.

So their is a fair bit of track work to happen to accommodate the airport train and fix some of the issues that V/line face now.

IMO I would rather a private consortium do the work, they have their interests in mind unlike the government. They won't want some crap work around or 2nd rate solution, which will effect their ability to deliver the services and therefor affect their income.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
@Lochie91 The hell it is! $15 Billion is an obscene amount of money for an airport link. Complexity of the station at the airport. How much are they planning to spend. Bearing in mind that in the middle of Canary Wharf in London $1.4 Billion is being spent. This is an outrageous amount being spent and they could redesign it so that it will cost a lot less.

I would rather them extend the tram route 59 and remove some stops. $15 Billion. Bloody hell.

Michael
  footscrazy Station Master

Worth remembering that the $15B will also go towards redeveloping the old DFO at Southern Cross.
The 80 story buildings being constructed across the road really prove how under-utilised that land is at the moment.
The current, Coles, bus station, a car-park and a handful of meh shopping will be replaced with something far more lucrative.
There’s also half a chance some extra decking might be provided towards the stadium (by which stage even that might be turned into something that generates more cash $$$$)
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Clearly you wouldn’t use the 59 to get to the city. I agree it needs to be extended to the airport to serve the workers that live in the area not travellers.

$15 Billion is fine for the project.

MM1 is $11 Billion for twin 9km tunnels and 3 new stations. MARL will have over 13km of new twin tunnels. A massive interchange at Sunshine, new underground terminus at the Airport and a redeveloped Southern Cross plus Rolling Stock.

If you want to add up everything being spent to make MM1 happen it well exceeds $15Billion.

Lastly I don’t really give a toss what’s happening in London and how much they can build it for. It has no relevance on construction costs here in Melbourne. Both cities have different factors that will effect costs.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
@Lochie91 The hell it is! $15 Billion is an obscene amount of money for an airport link. Complexity of the station at the airport. How much are they planning to spend. Bearing in mind that in the middle of Canary Wharf in London $1.4 Billion is being spent. This is an outrageous amount being spent and they could redesign it so that it will cost a lot less.
mejhammers1

Trying to understand if that investment would be made my the consortium and comprise private money or would it still rely in the public pursue for some of the capital?  I know they have committed $5b but is this the low watermark?

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