50 level crossings to be removed

 
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Well Nightfire how would you remove the Werribee street and Cherry street level crossings, that's virtually impossible for a road solution and also lies where the ARTC crosses through. Maddox level crossing is also too tricky to put a road solution in the future.

These would probably require the ARTC to close, unless they decide to chose property acquisition.

So is it cheaper for property acquisition or compensation to the ARTC by closing off the line for more than 60 hours?
True Believers
Werribee Street

Build the grade separation near the Racecourse along with upgrading Ballan Road to a 4 lane divided road also with Prince's Highway back to the Prince's Freeway Interchange.


Cherry Street

Property acquisition ! expand redevelop the Eastern end of the retail precinct.

Link Tarneit Road through to Prince's Highway (4 lane divided road) via the vicinity of Kelly Street.

Sponsored advertisement

  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I agree with Lad_Porter about Lilydale. I don't have a gradient book, anymore, to check the drop into Lilydale but it is a reasonable one and trenching would mean a lot more digging, for a lot longer, to keep a reasonable grade. The Xtrap's often lose traction on that climb in wet conditions as it is. It would also seriously impact on the John St rail bridge (lower the line enough and you create a new level crossing!) and the Melba Ave level crossing near the High school. IMHO, rail over would be "simpler" as it would raise the John St bridge (a low clearance now) and the Melba Ave crossing could be left largely as is. It would also enable an easing of the climb from Lilydale on the up. If the station was rebuilt in a similar manner to Rosanna's new one then car parking could be increased, something that wouldn't hurt in the least, and getting out of the western car park in the afternoon could be made easier as well, by being able to drive under the elevated track.
The drawback with this is it would impact the stabling sidings but then so would trenching. As an idea, maybe reinstate the Beresford Rd crossing or, alternatively, just continue the elevated line over that road and then construct new sidings somewhere along the old Healesville formation; plenty of vacant land just north of Beresford Rd. Also provides an opportunity to increase the size of the sidings at Lilydale, never a bad idea IMO.

Neil

The solution for Lilydale is obvious.
Build the "Lilydale Bypass" road that is shown in Melways and street-directory.com.au.
Then simply close the 2 road level crossings, replace them with pedestrian crossings.
Local traffic will use John St and Beresford Rd (yes I know John St is only 2.7m clearance).
Busses will connect to the main highway (new bypass) via Hutchinson St.

Using the railway crossing removal funding to build a new road; is something that politicians will want to do.
Thetr is a proposal doing the rounds that new stabling yards are to be on the Ventura Bus Depot site.
trainbrain
Really? Seems like a weird choice, not a very long site, why not just widen the existing stabling?
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Re Lilydale, I think ngarner has the right idea.  Build a new elevated station, a la Rosanna, on the site of the existing station.  Start the elevated rail before Melba Ave, thereby also eliminating that crossing and easing the grade (and also allowing the proposed highway diversion to go under if it happens).  Abolish the existing John St bridge (elevated rail would go over) and remove the brick pillars.  Abolish the existing stabling yard (convert to more car parking) and build a new one on the far side of Beresford Road, which would be crossed on an extension of the elevated rail, similar to Mernda at Bridge Inn Road.  (Would also facilitate any future extension to Coldstream).  This would not impact the existing bus terminals or car parking, it would just require stairs/escalators/lifts between there and the new station.  Buses and commuters would continue to access the existing facilities from the existing Maroondah Highway, exiting the car park would be easier with no LX, and there could even be stairs/escalators/lifts to the new station from the far end of the carpark.

There would be cheaper solutions, including just closing the Maroondah Highway LX and building a new station somewhere near John St, but if this is worth doing, it's worth doing properly and with a view to the future.  They got it right at Mernda.
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
To add to Lad_porter's points IMHO a new station near John St would struggle to find the space required for a two track terminal and then you'd have to somehow connect the existing car park to it. There would still be a need for stabling somewhere too with the complications that adds. No, leave the station where it is, just raise it.
The Lilydale "by-pass" has been planned for a long time and, as far as I know, still has to be anything more than a line on a map or another item on a VicRoad's wishlist. It has a number of challenges to make it work; i.e. the steep decline from Mooroolbark/Victoria Rd intersection, going past a school with around 2000 students (school speed zone of 40kph anyone?), the TAFE access, Lilydale lake dam wall, a retirement home at the old hospital next to where bypass has to come out with Yarra Ranges council property on the other side and joining the ever clogged Anderson St to then have to do a right turn at the Highway again. If it happens then it could be a good alternative to elevating the rail line but I won't hold my breath on it being done. (I've though for some time they should use Victoria Rd instead and cut across to Coldstream further north of the cemetery but I don't imagine many of the residents of that road would be happy with that idea! and that's not  the point of this thread).
Ventura probably wouldn't be very happy to lose their site and why uproot them when another few hundred metres on is vacant land. As drunkill pointed out it isn't a very wide nor long plot of land for stabling sparks. If HCMTs are eventually purchased for the Ringwood lines, as has been suggested somewhere, then that will impact on what stabling is needed.

Neil
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The old Warburton line should be equally considered as an extension to the Lilydale line. Mount Evelyn for a start.
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
The old Warburton line should be equally considered as an extension to the Lilydale line. Mount Evelyn for a start.
kitchgp
I'd love to see something go through Seville Station on rails but...
Extension back to Mt Evelyn will get a fight from Mt Lilydale Mercy College, the playing fields of which would be cut in half by the return of rail. As it is, the rail trail goes around the school grounds because the college refuse to let the original formation be used, which raises a question; who actually owns the rail formation, government or school?
A fraction to 'young' to have seen the last Warby trains.

Neil
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
To add to Lad_porter's points IMHO a new station near John St would struggle to find the space required for a two track terminal and then you'd have to somehow connect the existing car park to it. There would still be a need for stabling somewhere too with the complications that adds. No, leave the station where it is, just raise it.
ngarner
Strong disagree on this point. Firstly, you'd be hard pressed to do anything to the current station building - the refreshment rooms are heritage listed and they form a rather large part of the station building.
Secondly, there is ample room to fit a new elevated station between John St and over across Maroondah Highway. Once you have a platform going across Maroondah Hwy you can simply put the carpark and bus-port entrances (lifts, stairs, escalators etc) to it on that side. Demolish the embankment and you have lots of room underneath the new station area for the usual station facilities. It's not rocket science. You can even fit in a relaid yard with similar capacity to the existing one without breaching property boundaries, although it would be better to build a large Train Maintenance Facility out at Coldstream as such a facility is badly needed on the Burnley Group (Bayswater really doesn't cut the mustard).
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The new loop / access track to the future Kananook yard is starting to take shape next to the Frankston freeway.

Interestingly the clear* wall between Kananook Station and the freeway has been retained and it appears the track will pass between it and the freeway.



* Was clear when built, now a smudged mix of graffiti.
lkernan

And of course as soon as I posted that, the wall was demolished.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
To add to Lad_porter's points IMHO a new station near John St would struggle to find the space required for a two track terminal and then you'd have to somehow connect the existing car park to it. There would still be a need for stabling somewhere too with the complications that adds. No, leave the station where it is, just raise it.
Strong disagree on this point. Firstly, you'd be hard pressed to do anything to the current station building - the refreshment rooms are heritage listed and they form a rather large part of the station building.
Secondly, there is ample room to fit a new elevated station between John St and over across Maroondah Highway. Once you have a platform going across Maroondah Hwy you can simply put the carpark and bus-port entrances (lifts, stairs, escalators etc) to it on that side. Demolish the embankment and you have lots of room underneath the new station area for the usual station facilities. It's not rocket science. You can even fit in a relaid yard with similar capacity to the existing one without breaching property boundaries, although it would be better to build a large Train Maintenance Facility out at Coldstream as such a facility is badly needed on the Burnley Group (Bayswater really doesn't cut the mustard).
LancedDendrite
No real disagreement.  If you put an elevated station on the John St side of the highway but reaching a short distance across the highway, then with appropriately placed stairs/lifts/escalators it would suit bus passengers from the existing bus terminals.  It would not suit car commuters so well though, because then it would still be a long walk from the far ends of the car parks to the station.  That's why I thought a new station could be better located where the existing one is, but that's a minor point.  

I had forgotten about the refreshment rooms, but if that part of the existing station can't be affected and would be in the way, then maybe it could be carefully moved to another nearby site, still in the station precinct, similar to the signal box at Ringwood.
Depends on whether the elevated rail will just end at the new station, or will continue towards Beresford Road.

If you are going to have a maintenance facility at or towards Coldstream (or even if not), it makes sense to put the stabling out that way.  This would free up the existing stabling area for more car parking (desperately needed) and would allow continuation of the elevated rail over Beresford Rd - which could be needed sooner or later anyway (did I mention Mernda??).
  tom9876543 Train Controller

Elevated rail station at Lilydale is a good option.
But I am guessing that building the "Lilydale Bypass" road is cheaper.
And building the road will get more votes from the large number of people who drive beyond Lilydale.

It won't be a steep drop from Maroondah Hwy, simply make the enbankment larger.
Ironically, bridge over rail line will probably have clearance for double stacked freight....
The Lilydale Bypass road can be built with sound barriers like the Ringwood Bypass is.
There will be small service lane as well for the school on north and industry on south side.
The barriers will allow speed limit of 80km/h on bypass road.

I am guessing building Lilydale Bypass Road is cheaper than an elevated train station, and almost certain it will win more votes, so it is best option for level crossing removal.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Elevated rail station at Lilydale is a good option.
But I am guessing that building the "Lilydale Bypass" road is cheaper.
And building the road will get more votes from the large number of people who drive beyond Lilydale.

It won't be a steep drop from Maroondah Hwy, simply make the enbankment larger.
Ironically, bridge over rail line will probably have clearance for double stacked freight....
The Lilydale Bypass road can be built with sound barriers like the Ringwood Bypass is.
There will be small service lane as well for the school on north and industry on south side.
The barriers will allow speed limit of 80km/h on bypass road.

I am guessing building Lilydale Bypass Road is cheaper than an elevated train station, and almost certain it will win more votes, so it is best option for level crossing removal.
tom9876543
I can't follow what you mean.  Could you please elaborate?  Don't forget the existing bus terminals, car parking and train stabling - do you want to move all or some of those as well, if so to where?

I would have thought that the bypass road, if it ever happens, would be an entirely separate project.   All the LX removal may have to do there, depending on how it's done, is make provision for it.  The aim of this exercise is to remove the LX on Maroondah Highway, and the debate here is how best to do that.
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
re Lilydale
@Lanced_Dendrite. Having done some rough measuring I agree that I was wrong in my earlier post about the amount of room in the existing rail corridor over John St for an elevated station, based on the width of some of the new stations on the Dandenong line. If really desperate for more space then LXRA could acquire some of the road side parking on both sides of the corridor. An option is changing it to parallel instead of angle which would provide more space above without complete removing the parking completely.
I hadn't considered the idea of having the station start near John St, span the highway and then extend north of the highway. IMHO that is a fairly elegant solution to get around the heritage issue as well as providing a working solution to the problem.
I, too, had forgotten the heritage listing for the refreshment rooms. The heritage database states that "...the rooms included a large cellar..." Does anyone know if this refers to a physical cellar or is it using the word in the technical sense of somewhere to store alcohol? If it is the technical sense then that would make it "easier" to move the building as Lad_Porter suggests. I know many VR buildings were built to standard designs and a number were relocated over the years. Lilydale could possibly be relocatable if it was built along the same principles as those.
If it is a physical cellar then relocation is not really an option. Having the elevated platform finish well clear of the existing heritage part of the building and then angling the lines aimed at the stabling area more to the west of building would be one way to deal with the problem.
Whether the stabling remains within the existing rail boundary or is shifted north of Beresford Rd I'll leave to the people who have been given the scope to remove the crossing. I can't make that decision, am not likely to have any influence in how that decision is going to be made, certainly don't have the technical expertise for it and I doubt too many of those who do and are being paid to do the job are really take that much notice of a gunzel's ramblings.

Neil
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The Carrum Station Street bridge is now open.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner
  chomper Junior Train Controller

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/getting-on-with-the-reservoir-level-crossing-removal/

Skyrail it is for Reservoir.

NIMBYs incoming!
potatoinmymouth
I read that this morning, I thought rail under was going to get the go ahead due to less grade issues.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

I believe there are some pretty important services that run through the area and it was going to cost a bomb to redirect them.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Some pretty important services...
Yes, the main water trunk pipe from Yan Yean being smack bang in the middle of the intersection would make digging a big ditch "cost a bomb".

Not really a lot of nimby affected. Mostly shops and busineses all around.
One small wedge (about 20) between McCartney St and Cheddar Rd. Make the price right, the area could do with a park. Nobody would want to live there afterwards.

Speaking of park. The area is a spagetti road nightmare. Space under the Skyrail would sort the whole mess and make it far more people friendly.

cheers
John
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Some pretty important services...
Yes, the main water trunk pipe from Yan Yean being smack bang in the middle of the intersection would make digging a big ditch "cost a bomb".

Not really a lot of nimby affected. Mostly shops and busineses all around.
One small wedge (about 20) between McCartney St and Cheddar Rd. Make the price right, the area could do with a park. Nobody would want to live there afterwards.

Speaking of park. The area is a spagetti road nightmare. Space under the Skyrail would sort the whole mess and make it far more people friendly.

cheers
John
justarider
I forgot about that pipe. Rail under could kill two birds, the last kilometre of pipe has never been replaced or refurbished. Relocating it to a more service friendly location during the LX removal would renew that section and deliver a better LX removal solution.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Looking at it from a project aspect, I note there is a long 1 in 40 down the hill, so lowering is undesirable.
ask the following:
is there any reason why the line could not be stopped at Maroondah Highway and the station starting over John St?
Is future stabling and/or maintenance required in the yard?
The line is severed at Beresford Road, do we need to run the line towards Coldstream for a future facility?
Is there enough room for an elevated section without affecting the listed building? (Yes)

Either you abandon the railway at Maroondah Highway and build a new station or you continue with an elevated line with bridges over John, Maroondah and Beresford if you want to continue to Coldstream.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/getting-on-with-the-reservoir-level-crossing-removal/

Skyrail it is for Reservoir.

NIMBYs incoming!
potatoinmymouth

I agree elevated rail is the way to go, but the LXRA are not simplifying the spaghetti junction by connecting Edwarde street with Broadway.

Well you can't get everything you want?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I too thought it would be rail-under given the gradient towards Regent station, is the aqueduct too close to the surface to flatten that gradient?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I too thought it would be rail-under given the gradient towards Regent station, is the aqueduct too close to the surface to flatten that gradient?
Myrtone
Given that it's basically a 'spark-only' railway line, steep gradients are less of an issue.  Remember, Glen Waverley is 1 in 30 at Jordanville.

The line flattens out before Reservoir Station anyway as you head outbound, so probably just a brief jump up/continuation of climb South of Reservoir Stn.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Looking at it from a project aspect, I note there is a long 1 in 40 down the hill, so lowering is undesirable.
ask the following:
is there any reason why the line could not be stopped at Maroondah Highway and the station starting over John St?
Is future stabling and/or maintenance required in the yard?
The line is severed at Beresford Road, do we need to run the line towards Coldstream for a future facility?
Is there enough room for an elevated section without affecting the listed building? (Yes)

Either you abandon the railway at Maroondah Highway and build a new station or you continue with an elevated line with bridges over John, Maroondah and Beresford if you want to continue to Coldstream.
62440
You didn't mention the bus terminal, which is well used.  That's why the suggestion was to have an elevated section/station extending over the highway, so that bus passengers could access the station from the existing terminal without having to cross the highway.  The alternative would be to move the bus terminal, but to where?

Stabling is definitely required, to service the morning peak.  Especially with the single track from Mooroolbark, but even if duplicated, you couldn't just rely on arrivals to form enough peak hour Up services.

Parking is limited at Lilydale, and needs to be expanded.  I know from experience that if I arrive after about 8.45 I will not be able to park at the station and will have to go elsewhere, thereby missing my intended train, risking a parking fine, and incurring an even longer walk to the station.  That's why it was suggested to convert the existing train stabling area to more car parking, and move the train stabling further out.  Exactly how that would be done is open to conjecture, but it would possibly have to be on the far side of Beresford Rd.

Continuing to Coldstream is unlikely, although there have been suggestions of a maintenance facility.  But in any case, if the stabling is to be moved out then the Beresford Rd LX would probably have to be removed.  Once again, I would refer to Mernda, where the stabling is on the far side of Bridge Inn Road.

Ideally, as mentioned previously, the elevated line would begin on the far side of Melba Ave, thereby removing that LX as well, and allowing for the proposed highway diversion.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Given that it's basically a 'spark-only' railway line, steep gradients are less of an issue.  Remember, Glen Waverley is 1 in 30 at Jordanville.
Carnot

And the Glen Waverly line has always been like that, since it was built, the issue is adding or increasing gradients. As for the Glen Waverly line, being near the terminus, it does raise the question of why Glen Waverly station isn't higher.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
The two sides of the new underpass on Buckley Street now link up!
Alphabet
Locals invited to walk through the Buckley Street "Tunnel"this Thursday  evening then it opens for Traffic this weekend .Another crossing "Gone "!

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: