Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

In my opinion, the airport link needs to come to life as an end to end metro service. Yes, it needs to kill many birds with one stone, but it can do that as a metro service running along a far more optimal route than via Scumshine using existing corridors. It will be able to have several points of interchange with the existing rail network.

If done right, it could be one of several metro lines that Melbourne desperately needs.
chomper
Suburban rail loop, Suburban rail loop, Suburban rail loop. End to End Metro service from Werribee - Southland and also able to have several points of interchange with the existing rail network.

The MARL will be an express line. And the Suburban rail loop would be the metro line (which may have a stop at Kelior east).

The route via Sunshine is to allow electrified metro lines in the west to use the existing RRL and allow express v-line service into the CBD via this new MARL.

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  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

@Lockie91

Have to disagree with your disagree. Nothing strange about airport passengers on a Metro train.

Try the Piccadilly line from Heathrowe. Busiest line in London, 50 year old rolling stock, no luggage racks.
And yet.... it's a pretty good service.

Passengers getting off plane have one big advantage. Can get a seat, and park luggage in the disability spots.
Don't laugh it works. Only an issue if wheelchair gets on (only on 1st carriage in Melbourne).

Removing a row of seats in an Xtrap makes plenty more space for the relatively few passengers,
And it is already an issue for all passengers wanting to go Metro to Regional with luggage.

Besides, even IF build wiz bang express to SCS - then the passenger has to change train to Metro to go anywhere else. What advantage is that?

cheers
John
justarider
Heathrow has
1. Heathrow Express
2. Regional Trains
3. Picadilly Line
and soon to have
4. Crossrail

My experience in Barcelona is that taking a metro train with 20 stops and an interchange between city centre and airport is not ideal.

Additionaly, Sunbury/Melton/Wyndham Vale/Bacchus Marsh/Lara are going to need as many trains as possible as they keep expanding. Can't tack the airport train onto that. Bendigo and Seymour also needs to be segregated, seems a perfect match to put Airport and Regional traffic together, especially when there will be spare paths for Airport terminating services. Can put the Airport in Zone 3/4/5 for a moderate price increase but not a drastic one.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@Lockie91

Have to disagree with your disagree. Nothing strange about airport passengers on a Metro train.

Try the Piccadilly line from Heathrowe. Busiest line in London, 50 year old rolling stock, no luggage racks.
And yet.... it's a pretty good service.

...
Besides, even IF build wiz bang express to SCS - then the passenger has to change train to Metro to go anywhere else. What advantage is that?

cheers
John
Heathrow has
1. Heathrow Express
2. Regional Trains
3. Picadilly Line
and soon to have
4. Crossrail

My experience in Barcelona is that taking a metro train with 20 stops and an interchange between city centre and airport is not ideal.

Additionaly, Sunbury/Melton/Wyndham Vale/Bacchus Marsh/Lara are going to need as many trains as possible as they keep expanding. Can't tack the airport train onto that. Bendigo and Seymour also needs to be segregated, seems a perfect match to put Airport and Regional traffic together, especially when there will be spare paths for Airport terminating services. Can put the Airport in Zone 3/4/5 for a moderate price increase but not a drastic one.
John.Z
Lucky Heathrowe.
1. Express to Paddington $49 (AUD) one-way. Some discounts for return & on-line booking. But is is very expensive.
   And then you have to go Metro to get anywhere else.
2. Regional . Have to go to Hayes & Harlington  and then change for Paddington - come on!
    Better just stay on the Metro SAS  to Paddington.
3. Piccadilly SAS lots of stations, goes all the way to north end of London suburbs (from Heathrowe the West end).
   it's sort of like Craigeburn to Cranbourne. About $10AUD to central London
4. Crossrail. Not a new track Airport end. It will be SAS to Paddington - see 2. above.

But we are not talking about 20 stations (how did Barcelona get mixed).
Assuming MARL goes MM1, that is 5 stops from Airport to Town Hall - let's not exaggerate the issue !

And I say again for the umpteenth time, Regional train Airport to SCS is the worst possible welcome to visitors.
That end of town is a dump. The only good thing about Spenser St is the exit.

Whatever the MARL solution ends up, fares will just be a zone on Myki after tap on, whatever is decided by the money men.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

@Lockie91

Have to disagree with your disagree. Nothing strange about airport passengers on a Metro train.

Try the Piccadilly line from Heathrowe. Busiest line in London, 50 year old rolling stock, no luggage racks.
And yet.... it's a pretty good service.

...
Besides, even IF build wiz bang express to SCS - then the passenger has to change train to Metro to go anywhere else. What advantage is that?

cheers
John
Heathrow has
1. Heathrow Express
2. Regional Trains
3. Picadilly Line
and soon to have
4. Crossrail

My experience in Barcelona is that taking a metro train with 20 stops and an interchange between city centre and airport is not ideal.

Additionaly, Sunbury/Melton/Wyndham Vale/Bacchus Marsh/Lara are going to need as many trains as possible as they keep expanding. Can't tack the airport train onto that. Bendigo and Seymour also needs to be segregated, seems a perfect match to put Airport and Regional traffic together, especially when there will be spare paths for Airport terminating services. Can put the Airport in Zone 3/4/5 for a moderate price increase but not a drastic one.
Lucky Heathrowe.
1. Express to Paddington $49 (AUD) one-way. Some discounts for return & on-line booking. But is is very expensive.
   And then you have to go Metro to get anywhere else.
2. Regional . Have to go to Hayes & Harlington  and then change for Paddington - come on!
    Better just stay on the Metro SAS  to Paddington.
3. Piccadilly SAS lots of stations, goes all the way to north end of London suburbs (from Heathrowe the West end).
   it's sort of like Craigeburn to Cranbourne. About $10AUD to central London
4. Crossrail. Not a new track Airport end. It will be SAS to Paddington - see 2. above.

But we are not talking about 20 stations (how did Barcelona get mixed).
Assuming MARL goes MM1, that is 5 stops from Airport to Town Hall - let's not exaggerate the issue !

And I say again for the umpteenth time, Regional train Airport to SCS is the worst possible welcome to visitors.
That end of town is a dump. The only good thing about Spenser St is the exit.

Whatever the MARL solution ends up, fares will just be a zone on Myki after tap on, whatever is decided by the money men.

cheers
John
justarider
How is Southern Cross "the worst possible welcome to visitors?" It's the one we give them currently, right next to Marvel Stadium and the river precinct.

By my count, there would be at least 9 stops between the Airport and Town Hall, with a running time of about 40 minutes.

An electrified VLine linking the regions with a stop at the airport would give regional passengers their own tracks into town, plus Airport visitors a fast journey into town. Not every Bendigo train will come in full, and trains can terminate at the station from Geelong/Warragul (who would run at higher frequency).

No reason why a separate metro line via Highpoint/Keilor East couldn't also be considered as a two prong approach.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@Lockie91

Have to disagree with your disagree. Nothing strange about airport passengers on a Metro train.
..
Besides, even IF build wiz bang express to SCS - then the passenger has to change train to Metro to go anywhere else. What advantage is that?

cheers
John
Heathrow has
1. 2. 3. 4.

My experience in Barcelona is that taking a metro train with 20 stops and an interchange between city centre and airport is not ideal.

Additionaly, Sunbury/Melton/Wyndham Vale/Bacchus Marsh/Lara are going to need as many trains as possible as they keep expanding. Can't tack the airport train onto that. Bendigo and Seymour also needs to be segregated, seems a perfect match to put Airport and Regional traffic together, especially when there will be spare paths for Airport terminating services. Can put the Airport in Zone 3/4/5 for a moderate price increase but not a drastic one.
Lucky Heathrowe.
1. 2. 3. 4.

But we are not talking about 20 stations (how did Barcelona get mixed).
Assuming MARL goes MM1, that is 5 stops from Airport to Town Hall - let's not exaggerate the issue !

And I say again for the umpteenth time, Regional train Airport to SCS is the worst possible welcome to visitors.
That end of town is a dump. The only good thing about Spenser St is the exit.

Whatever the MARL solution ends up, fares will just be a zone on Myki after tap on, whatever is decided by the money men.

cheers
John
How is Southern Cross "the worst possible welcome to visitors?" It's the one we give them currently, right next to Marvel Stadium and the river precinct.

By my count, there would be at least 9 stops between the Airport and Town Hall, with a running time of about 40 minutes.

An electrified VLine linking the regions with a stop at the airport would give regional passengers their own tracks into town, plus Airport visitors a fast journey into town. Not every Bendigo train will come in full, and trains can terminate at the station from Geelong/Warragul (who would run at higher frequency).

No reason why a separate metro line via Highpoint/Keilor East couldn't also be considered as a two prong approach.
John.Z
have you ever walked/trammed from SCS to the Casino or Riverbank in the evening? it's scary enough to turn around and run.
Even during the day, not impressed. PSO's at SCS are now going to patrol in day time - what does that tell you?
Heaven help a visitor that arrives at footy start/end.

9 stops only if you count every existing little station.
If your magic tunnel can by-pass stations, so can I. Most likely stops for MM1 from Airport would be
1. Sunshine
2. Footscray (and just marginal for a Werribee change)
3. North Melb (the new MARL underground)
4. Parkville
5. State Library
6. Town Hall (lost count  - big deal not)
still way less than the 20 you were postulating.

40 minutes: you must be joking. Current Sunbury SAS runs from Albion to Flinders St in 24 minutes. And that is pathetic, can do better, V/line does (sometimes).

Consider that HCMT will be a lot faster and by-pass small stations. But i'll concede maybe the same 24 minutes to Town Hall
Add back a full speed express from Albion to Airport. 14km say 7 minutes.
Total in the realm of 30 minutes to get to the centre of Melbourne (Parkville, Library or Town Hall.

A train to SCS only, cannot achieve that time to deliver passengers to where they are actually going.

As for sparks to the regions, dream on. SRL will be finished first.

cheers
John
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Assuming MARL goes MM1, that is 5 stops from Airport to Town Hall - let's not exaggerate the issue !

And I say again for the umpteenth time, Regional train Airport to SCS is the worst possible welcome to visitors.
That end of town is a dump. The only good thing about Spenser St is the exit.

Whatever the MARL solution ends up, fares will just be a zone on Myki after tap on, whatever is decided by the money men.

cheers
John
justarider

MARL is not going via MM1, it is terminating at SCS, that is what all the publicity says.  For passengers coming from Dandenong using MM1, they will need to change at Sunshine to access the Airport line, everyone else can change at SCS.

As for the area around SCS being a dump, well that is a matter of opinion.  SCS is obviously very convenient for the Docklands area, but there are plenty of redevelopment opportunities for the western part of the traditional Hoddle grid.

With the old DFO site to be redeveloped as part of the new MARL terminal, that will definitely be a positive for the station precinct.

Ross
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

MARL shouldn’t terminate at SCS
Line like Sandringham and Alamein don’t run via the Loop/SCS so making them have to catch another train one stop is pretty ludicrous and inconvenient.

What about the Airport Trains running to South Yarra and terminating there at Platform 5. The Dandenong Corridor by then will be running via the Metro Tunnel, gives passengers of all lines direct connections.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Assuming MARL goes MM1, that is 5 stops from Airport to Town Hall - let's not exaggerate the issue !

And I say again for the umpteenth time, Regional train Airport to SCS is the worst possible welcome to visitors.
That end of town is a dump. The only good thing about Spenser St is the exit.

Whatever the MARL solution ends up, fares will just be a zone on Myki after tap on, whatever is decided by the money men.

cheers
John

MARL is not going via MM1, it is terminating at SCS, that is what all the publicity says.  For passengers coming from Dandenong using MM1, they will need to change at Sunshine to access the Airport line, everyone else can change at SCS.

As for the area around SCS being a dump, well that is a matter of opinion.  SCS is obviously very convenient for the Docklands area, but there are plenty of redevelopment opportunities for the western part of the traditional Hoddle grid.

With the old DFO site to be redeveloped as part of the new MARL terminal, that will definitely be a positive for the station precinct.

Ross
Rossco T
whose "publicity" - you mean the self serving consortium "Air Rail Melbourne" ?
Of course ARM say terminate at SCS - they own it.
The government has been much more circumspect with the Business Case underway.

"redevelopment opportunities" - and yet again we have real estate robber barons trying to make a quick(huge) buck from the taxpayer building infrastructure to boost the developer, and to hell with community benefit, or economic sense.
How about some benefit to the existing city, people and institutions.

Victoria and Melbourne (heck - the whole world) is littered with failed rail lines built for real estate developers.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

MARL isn't going through MM1, neither it's going to Southern Cross.

There have been proposals before that either go to Southern Cross or use the MM1 tunnels. PTV plan from 2012 and study shows it using the MM1. Although in 2014, the Liberal government wanted it to start at Southern Cross (I well know it was an election stunt).

The current government hasn't been decided on the exact route it'll take into the CBD yet. It will be decided when the Business Case is delivered which is 2019.

How they can include the Suburban rail loop, the Geelong fast rail and the potential extensions to the north of the Airport and beyond, is anyone's guess. People are already making assumptions too early, and worried that the project will be executed in the worst possible way.

Sunshine route makes sense, good we can all agree hopefully, since it future proofs the extra capacity and throughout of more trains through the corridor (future electric & regional services). Another thing we can agree the Suburban loop would complement the Airport rail by enabling a metro service through the suburbs to connect with the airport. The Suburban loop I think should be seperate from the MARL, but it's alignment will be also accessed in the Business case.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
MARL isn't going through MM1, neither it's going to Southern Cross.

There have been proposals before that either go to Southern Cross or use the MM1 tunnels. PTV plan from 2012 and study shows it using the MM1. Although in 2014, the Liberal government wanted it to start at Southern Cross (I well know it was an election stunt).

The current government hasn't been decided on the exact route it'll take into the CBD yet. It will be decided when the Business Case is delivered which is 2019.

How they can include the Suburban rail loop, the Geelong fast rail and the potential extensions to the north of the Airport and beyond, is anyone's guess. People are already making assumptions too early, and worried that the project will be executed in the worst possible way.

Sunshine route makes sense, good we can all agree hopefully, since it future proofs the extra capacity and throughout of more trains through the corridor (future electric & regional services). Another thing we can agree the Suburban loop would complement the Airport rail by enabling a metro service through the suburbs to connect with the airport. The Suburban loop I think should be seperate from the MARL, but it's alignment will be also accessed in the Business case.
True Believers
well if it's not MM1, and it's not SCS then what could it be ?

another underground network of tunnels in the CBD ? - nah probably not.

how about the Underground Loop. Now that would be a surprise.   oops - back to SCS but this time the Metro side.
I did say that the government has been circumspect with the Business Case. 2019 promises to be an interesting year.

We can only hope that the Suburban Loop only gets as close to the CBD as Sunshine. Will have enough troubles of it's own without getting caught up in the current mess.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

MARL isn't going through MM1, neither it's going to Southern Cross.

There have been proposals before that either go to Southern Cross or use the MM1 tunnels. PTV plan from 2012 and study shows it using the MM1. Although in 2014, the Liberal government wanted it to start at Southern Cross (I well know it was an election stunt).

The current government hasn't been decided on the exact route it'll take into the CBD yet. It will be decided when the Business Case is delivered which is 2019.
well if it's not MM1, and it's not SCS then what could it be ?
justarider
What I meant is you can't assume neither case. The decision hasn't been made yet. As I said before it will be decided when the Business Case is delivered which is 2019. And then a preferred connection into the CBD will be announced and then we know for certain where exactly it's terminating.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Wait until 2019 and not speculate. !!

@True Believers  you have taken all the fun out of RP

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Wait until 2019 and not speculate. !!

@True Believers  you have taken all the fun out of RP

cheers
John
justarider


Too bloody right. Here’s to speculation!
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Does the government need the business case to make an announcement on it?

It’s an unsolicited proposal that the government can say stacks up before it goes into caretaker mode in November.

It seems the government and AirRail already know what it is going to say. Why bother waiting?

I would suspect that RP won’t have to wait until 2019. Doesn’t work with the November election.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Is that some speculation that I detect?

cheers
John
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Does the government need the business case to make an announcement on it?

It’s an unsolicited proposal that the government can say stacks up before it goes into caretaker mode in November.

It seems the government and AirRail already know what it is going to say. Why bother waiting?

I would suspect that RP won’t have to wait until 2019. Doesn’t work with the November election.
Lockie91
Would the Feds want to see a business case before coughing up their $5Bn or is that already a done deal?

Prime Minister ScoMo may not be as PT friendly as Malcolm was.

BG
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

@BG

The feds are on the nose here in Victoria the government could decide on the project and wedge the feds. Can you imagine the screaming from the Victorian Liberals if they pull the $5Billion? Not going to happen.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
@BG

The feds are on the nose here in Victoria the government could decide on the project and wedge the feds. Can you imagine the screaming from the Victorian Liberals if they pull the $5Billion? Not going to happen.
Lockie91
Yes or they could use the lack of a business case to beat up on the Andrews Goverment accusing them of wasting $$$, being economically irresponsible etc etc. Then wait till after the state election and if they lose in Vic just write the state off as many suspected they had already done a while back and go chasing votes in Qld, Western Sydney and other battlegrounds where they stand more of a chance of gaining some ground.

BG
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

@BG

If the do pull the funding Dan will just do what he has done with MM1. Fund it them selves and have something else to bash the feds and the Vic Liberals with. I’m sure the government can go to AirRail and get them to chip in more.

I very much doubt the feds will pull the funding before the election. Would destroy any chance the Victorian Liberals have here. After is a different story, if Dan does will he can weather the storm, the next election is 4 years away and by then MARL will be coming online.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
sadly @Lockie91 you have defined the xery essence  of politics vs policy. We may never learn and be rhe poorer for it.
Last briiliant leader was Napoleon.  and that did not end well.

cheers
John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Just a suggestion, I’m no engineer or expert here

So with the Suburban Rail Loop travelling from Airport to Sunshine, will probably travel along the Albion-Jacana corridor and have stations at Airport West and Keilor East, why does the airport rail need to travel along the sunshine corridor.

Why do we need both airport trains to go via Sunshine, unless we go with AirRail consortium proposal for 20 Minute Service. It is being built for twin tunnels so a fair chunk of it will be underground. Which other lines, however will take this route - Geelong & Bendigo & Ballarat Trains can’t travel underground without special ventilation and I’m not even sure HSR trains at 250km/h for Geelong and potentially Ballarat can travel underground.

Going via Maribyrnong or even Flemington direct to the Airport will give those in the inner city a direct path to the airport in quick time. It also could have potential stations at Victoria University and Maribyrnong. It would cost the same as this absurd 15 Billion price tag on the MARL via Sunshine which doesn’t even include the Bendigo and Seymour Corridors going via the Airport and out to Clarkfield and Wallan.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Just a suggestion, I’m no engineer or expert here

So with the Suburban Rail Loop travelling from Airport to Sunshine, will probably travel along the Albion-Jacana corridor and have stations at Airport West and Keilor East, why does the airport rail need to travel along the sunshine corridor.

Why do we need both airport trains to go via Sunshine, unless we go with AirRail consortium proposal for 20 Minute Service. It is being built for twin tunnels so a fair chunk of it will be underground. Which other lines, however will take this route - Geelong & Bendigo & Ballarat Trains can’t travel underground without special ventilation and I’m not even sure HSR trains at 250km/h for Geelong and potentially Ballarat can travel underground.

Going via Maribyrnong or even Flemington direct to the Airport will give those in the inner city a direct path to the airport in quick time. It also could have potential stations at Victoria University and Maribyrnong. It would cost the same as this absurd 15 Billion price tag on the MARL via Sunshine which doesn’t even include the Bendigo and Seymour Corridors going via the Airport and out to Clarkfield and Wallan.
ptvcommuter
the route via Albion for MARL is well and truly settled. Just waiting for the business case to give us the final design.

yes the SRL will also run via Albion loop.
In case you missed what the government SRL announcement says, MARL is the airport portion of SRL ( not "instead of" or "as well as").

Don't get too excited about anything AirRail have said. The $15B is the consortium's price tag for them to have the privilege of slugging another toll onto the travelling public. They have nearly squeezed the car drivers dry, now its the PT turn.

State and Fed govt pay $10B,  AirRail pay $5B
- AirRail collect squillions of $$ forever, while v/line or Metro pay the running costs forever.

"absurd 15 Billion price tag" - INDEED

The business case for MARL is what will matter. Patience , Patience, Patience.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

This MARL/SRL business needs to be cleared up ASAP.

Are they proposing two services?
1. SRL
2. Melbourne to Airport

or are they proposing that people switch trains at Sunshine for a train to the city?

My thoughts on the SRL west of the Airport are on the other thread.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
This MARL/SRL business needs to be cleared up ASAP.

Are they proposing two services?
1. SRL
2. Melbourne to Airport

or are they proposing that people switch trains at Sunshine for a train to the city?

My thoughts on the SRL west of the Airport are on the other thread.
John.Z
see also potatos conspiracy theory on the other thread.

I postulated a "change train at Sunshine" and was rightly ridiculed. but who knows.

Electioneering 101 lesson.

Never give the opposition full disclosure/detail. They will only twist it to mean the opposite of the original intent.
eg: Skyrail will give pedestrian access across the suburb - becomes "the suburb will be divided".

cheers
John
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
This MARL/SRL business needs to be cleared up ASAP.

Are they proposing two services?
1. SRL
2. Melbourne to Airport

or are they proposing that people switch trains at Sunshine for a train to the city?

My thoughts on the SRL west of the Airport are on the other thread.
John.Z
Could it be that they have no idea now and don't really need to know for many years?

If MARL and the South Eastern SRL both start construction in 2020 then when they open a decade later (MARL might be a bit faster) you'll have trains from the airport to the city and trains from Box Hill to Cheltenham.

Perhaps another 10 years after that the Northern section of SRL will be complete and trains might go from the city to the airport and then around the suburbs.... or not - given that's 22 years away I think they have some time to work it out.

Yes, they should future proof the design etc. etc. but can we really imagine a world we there is need for more than one new track pair between the airport and sunshine (up to 24 tph) if it's all going to join up eventually anyway?

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