Show of support at Mildura passenger rail rally

 

News article: Show of support at Mildura passenger rail rally

PASSIONATE community members demanded action for a long-awaited commitment to the restoration of a passenger rail service in the region, arming themselves with signs and taking to Langtree Mall on Saturday.

  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
For a service to Mildura a change at Maryborough or Ballarat would be required for speed. No point going via north Geelong tooooo long.

Run into Ballarat and change for a higher speed service into MELBOURNE.

5 hours between Mildura and Maryborough would be achievable but what could we get  between Maryborough and Ballarat?
x31
well @x31 if you care to read back through the weekend's thread you might find the answers.

PS Mildura/Melbourne about 9 hrs

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  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
You miss understand my point as  I am asking what could be achieved between Maryborough and Ballarat?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
You miss understand my point as  I am asking what could be achieved between Maryborough and Ballarat?
x31
not misunderstood at all.
If you seek answers, the READ the thread.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I’m just going to reiterate my polite enquiry about which stations have such low platforms, as at a quick glance, Dunolly, St Arnaud, Donald, Ouyen and Mildura all have high-level platforms.

I’m happy to be proven wrong, and in fact I’d prefer it to ad hominem nonsense.
potatoinmymouth

The last time I was there the main station along the line, St Arnaud had a low level platform...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line

Whether a passenger decision is based upon a race between train and car is mere speculation. The reason for choice is far more complex and I have no evidence to prove either way, as I suspect you do not either.

cheers
John
justarider

Back in 1982 when I first started travelling to/from Ballan, V/Line was considered to be a second rate service that was the only last resort alternative to driving a car.

At the time the Western Freeway was completed, (1978) the train took around 2 hours to travel from Ballarat to Melbourne...even longer if it wasn't express. This compared with car travel times of around 80 mins. Consequently the train wasn't heavily utilised like it is today and in part because of that the frequencies were only about 6 trains a day each way and less on weekends. I well remember times when I had a compartment to myself as the train was so lightly loaded.

Today a conservative estimate based on my observations, Ballan has more traffic to/from Melbourne than Ballarat did 35 years ago and Ballarat has around 2500 daily commuters to Melbourne and is steadily increasing. Today's trains are faster than travelling by car, as well as being safer and more economical, consequently people are voting with their feet and moving to the regions and travelling by train to work in the City in increasing numbers.

In most cases today the train is actually PREFERABLE to driving...and this includes whole families and young people of driving age travelling together which previously would rarely if ever occur.

This is how I know the patronage will be there with the reinstated passenger train to Mildura, over time, as the improvements to the line north of Maryborough are undertaken.
To cut your counter argument, the demographics will be different on the Mildura line compared to the Ballarat line, but the service will still be utilised anyway...build it and they will come.

Nowhere have I said this infrastructure be commenced/completed immediately.

Today's increasing patronage on V/Line trains cannot be attributed to population increase alone....

You suggest I have no way of knowing that patronage rises with improvements to a service...prove to me that it doesn't.

Mike.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

Whether a passenger decision is based upon a race between train and car is mere speculation. The reason for choice is far more complex and I have no evidence to prove either way, as I suspect you do not either.

cheers
John
Back in 1982 when I first started travelling to/from Ballan, V/Line was considered to be a second rate service that was the only last resort alternative to driving a car.

At the time the Western Freeway was completed, (1978) the train took around 2 hours to travel from Ballarat to Melbourne...even longer if it wasn't express. This compared with car travel times of around 80 mins. Consequently the train wasn't heavily utilised like it is today and in part because of that the frequencies were only about 6 trains a day each way and less on weekends. I well remember times when I had a compartment to myself as the train was so lightly loaded.

Today a conservative estimate based on my observations, Ballan has more traffic to/from Melbourne than Ballarat did 35 years ago and Ballarat has around 2500 daily commuters to Melbourne and is steadily increasing. Today's trains are faster than travelling by car, as well as being safer and more economical, consequently people are voting with their feet and moving to the regions and travelling by train to work in the City in increasing numbers.

In most cases today the train is actually PREFERABLE to driving...and this includes whole families and young people of driving age travelling together which previously would rarely if ever occur.

This is how I know the patronage will be there with the reinstated passenger train to Mildura, over time, as the improvements to the line north of Maryborough are undertaken.
To cut your counter argument, the demographics will be different on the Mildura line compared to the Ballarat line, but the service will still be utilised anyway...build it and they will come.

Nowhere have I said this infrastructure be commenced/completed immediately.

Today's increasing patronage on V/Line trains cannot be attributed to population increase alone....

You suggest I have no way of knowing that patronage rises with improvements to a service...prove to me that it doesn't.

Mike.
The Vinelander
In 1978, very few Ballarat people commuted daily to Melbourne for work. Now it's a stampede.
Personal anecdotes make us all feel good, but do not address the fundamentals that we do not know.

The reason for choice is far more complex and I have no evidence to prove either way. you do not either.

cheers
John
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
As 35 years of anecdotal evidence clearly counts for something, I'm happy to accept that you have exhausted your arguments in this matter.

Therefore I'm happy to let this subject rest till the next time a thread is created...and there have been many...

Mike.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

As 35 years of anecdotal evidence clearly counts for something, I'm happy to accept that you have exhausted your arguments in this matter.
The Vinelander

And there’s the rub, Mike: it’s 35 years of anecdotal evidence against empirical data from quite a number of sources.

Yes, anecdotal evidence can count for something. In fact, I’ve used it myself, as a one time passenger of the Maryborough Express Maxi Taxi, an anecdote which leads me to draw the conclusion that the current service beyond Ballarat is an almost criminal waste of funds.

The real value of the anecdote, though, lies in showing that its implications and underlying assumptions match those backed up by hard evidence.

On that note, let’s address the fallacy that the Ballarat patronage explosion provides grounds for a rail service to Mildura.

The Ballarat-Melbourne journey is now - regardless of its history - an achievable commute by both train and car. This means that the factors contributing to patronage growth are necessarily factors which improve the commuter journey in some way.

I think you’ll happily concede that Mildura will never be “commutable” to either Melbourne or a closer centre such as Ballarat by land transport. (The only mode which would possibly enable this is a true high-speed train, which I’m sure you will agree is outside the scope of this discussion due to the prohibitively high capex required.)

The underlying market for a Mildura train is therefore fundamentally different to the Ballarat service, and it’s foolish to make superficial “build it and they will come” comparisons as a consequence. It’s analogous to arguing that the next 100 years of development of the suburban rail network should focus on an area the size of the Paris Metro, when the urban form of Melbourne clearly demands other solutions.

With that in mind we turn to the anecdotal evidence more closely linked to the provision of a long-haul train service using mostly existing infrastructure.

I’ve supplied a number of reports and statistics which I consider relevant to my case that the market for this train simply does not exist. As an extension, I argue that Mildura’s public transport needs are being met quite well compared to benchmarks, and that development of a rail service in any case does not meet the most pressing connectivity needs.

I politely challenge you to present some rigorous analysis which supports your case: that is, a growing market for travel to and from Melbourne, coupled with positive feedback as a result of some specific aspect of the train.

I’m very happy to concede that such evidence may exist, particularly in the form of The Prospector and its exceptional patronage. In fact, I am trying to inform myself about the circumstances which create such patronage as I would be very happy to invest in the Mildura service knowing it could produce similar passenger numbers (I believe this would demonstrate a genuine social need regardless of any economic criteria). On this, however, for now, the onus remains on you.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
In this Victorian news thread, Mildura would have to be a standout in the number of threads that have been created since this forum was created...that itself speaks volumes.

In each case, the economists and naysayers have commented over the years in a similar vein to the arguments that have been replicated in this latest thread.

As I wrote in the reply to justarider I've put forward a reasonable, considered argument, however it is impossible to find common ground as the parties are too far apart...community connectivity and a not unreasonable expectation of a standard of PT that all other Victorians living near a regional rail line expect and receive...versus cold hard economics.

Fortunately the economists are losing significant ground...the airport line being the latest example.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

And there’s the rub, Mike: it’s 35 years of anecdotal evidence against empirical data from quite a number of sources.

Yes, anecdotal evidence can count for something. In fact, I’ve used it myself, as a one time passenger of the Maryborough Express Maxi Taxi, an anecdote which leads me to draw the conclusion that the current service beyond Ballarat is an almost criminal waste of funds.

The real value of the anecdote, though, lies in showing that its implications and underlying assumptions match those backed up by hard evidence.

On that note, let’s address the fallacy that the Ballarat patronage explosion provides grounds for a rail service to Mildura.

The Ballarat-Melbourne journey is now - regardless of its history - an achievable commute by both train and car. This means that the factors contributing to patronage growth are necessarily factors which improve the commuter journey in some way.

I think you’ll happily concede that Mildura will never be “commutable” to either Melbourne or a closer centre such as Ballarat by land transport. (The only mode which would possibly enable this is a true high-speed train, which I’m sure you will agree is outside the scope of this discussion due to the prohibitively high capex required.)

The underlying market for a Mildura train is therefore fundamentally different to the Ballarat service, and it’s foolish to make superficial “build it and they will come” comparisons as a consequence. It’s analogous to arguing that the next 100 years of development of the suburban rail network should focus on an area the size of the Paris Metro, when the urban form of Melbourne clearly demands other solutions.

With that in mind we turn to the anecdotal evidence more closely linked to the provision of a long-haul train service using mostly existing infrastructure.

I’ve supplied a number of reports and statistics which I consider relevant to my case that the market for this train simply does not exist. As an extension, I argue that Mildura’s public transport needs are being met quite well compared to benchmarks, and that development of a rail service in any case does not meet the most pressing connectivity needs.

I politely challenge you to present some rigorous analysis which supports your case: that is, a growing market for travel to and from Melbourne, coupled with positive feedback as a result of some specific aspect of the train.

I’m very happy to concede that such evidence may exist, particularly in the form of The Prospector and its exceptional patronage. In fact, I am trying to inform myself about the circumstances which create such patronage as I would be very happy to invest in the Mildura service knowing it could produce similar passenger numbers (I believe this would demonstrate a genuine social need regardless of any economic criteria). On this, however, for now, the onus remains on you.
potatoinmymouth
- Mildura is not a commuter train, no one is arguing it is.

- Mildura is very similar in population, distance, remotness to Kalgoorlie and it has a 10 x week 3 car set

- Mildura expected rail travel time is also very similar to Moree and Armidale for the distance and they have 7 day a week service.

- Mildura is closer than Broken Hill by half and BH still has a weekly 3 car service

- Dubbo is signiificantly shorter in distance by road, but the rail journey is very slow and close to Mildura service time, yet it supports a daily service, with another to Bathurst.

- Swan Hill, while just under 200km shorter in distance, supports a daily service.

- Then we have South Main and NSW North coast services and Qld.


I think we can stopping guessing/pretending it won't get the numbers to support a daily or 6d/wk train service. The argument is basically this
- How much will it cost?
- How long will be the travel time for that price?
- And is this worth the govt spending?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner


And there’s the rub, Mike: it’s 35 years of anecdotal evidence against empirical data from quite a number of sources.

Yes, anecdotal evidence can count for something. In fact, I’ve used it myself, as a one time passenger of the Maryborough Express Maxi Taxi, an anecdote which leads me to draw the conclusion that the current service beyond Ballarat is an almost criminal waste of funds.

The real value of the anecdote, though, lies in showing that its implications and underlying assumptions match those backed up by hard evidence.

On that note, let’s address the fallacy that the Ballarat patronage explosion provides grounds for a rail service to Mildura.

The Ballarat-Melbourne journey is now - regardless of its history - an achievable commute by both train and car. This means that the factors contributing to patronage growth are necessarily factors which improve the commuter journey in some way.

I think you’ll happily concede that Mildura will never be “commutable” to either Melbourne or a closer centre such as Ballarat by land transport. (The only mode which would possibly enable this is a true high-speed train, which I’m sure you will agree is outside the scope of this discussion due to the prohibitively high capex required.)

The underlying market for a Mildura train is therefore fundamentally different to the Ballarat service, and it’s foolish to make superficial “build it and they will come” comparisons as a consequence. It’s analogous to arguing that the next 100 years of development of the suburban rail network should focus on an area the size of the Paris Metro, when the urban form of Melbourne clearly demands other solutions.

With that in mind we turn to the anecdotal evidence more closely linked to the provision of a long-haul train service using mostly existing infrastructure.

I’ve supplied a number of reports and statistics which I consider relevant to my case that the market for this train simply does not exist. As an extension, I argue that Mildura’s public transport needs are being met quite well compared to benchmarks, and that development of a rail service in any case does not meet the most pressing connectivity needs.

I politely challenge you to present some rigorous analysis which supports your case: that is, a growing market for travel to and from Melbourne, coupled with positive feedback as a result of some specific aspect of the train.

I’m very happy to concede that such evidence may exist, particularly in the form of The Prospector and its exceptional patronage. In fact, I am trying to inform myself about the circumstances which create such patronage as I would be very happy to invest in the Mildura service knowing it could produce similar passenger numbers (I believe this would demonstrate a genuine social need regardless of any economic criteria). On this, however, for now, the onus remains on you.- Mildura is not a commuter train, no one is arguing it is.

- Mildura is very similar in population, distance, remotness to Kalgoorlie and it has a 10 x week 3 car set

- Mildura expected rail travel time is also very similar to Moree and Armidale for the distance and they have 7 day a week service.

- Mildura is closer than Broken Hill by half and BH still has a weekly 3 car service

- Dubbo is signiificantly shorter in distance by road, but the rail journey is very slow and close to Mildura service time, yet it supports a daily service, with another to Bathurst.

- Swan Hill, while just under 200km shorter in distance, supports a daily service.

- Then we have South Main and NSW North coast services and Qld.


I think we can stopping guessing/pretending it won't get the numbers to support a daily or 6d/wk train service. The argument is basically this
- How much will it cost?
- How long will be the travel time for that price?
- And is this worth the govt spending?
RTT_Rules
Appreciate the good faith engagement, please take my reply in the same spirit.

To Kalgoorlie first: there are quite clearly substantial similarities between this region and Mildura. What I would like to understand is just who is catching the train. Is it locals travelling to services in Perth? Is it tourists? Is it business? Obviously this is a difficult question to answer but it does give us some idea of how a similar service to Mildura might generate similar traffic levels - or not.

The obvious difference with Swan Hill is that a day return is possible to Melbourne, making one of the most oft-quoted use cases for country rail in general - the specialist medical appointment in Melbourne - a much more attractive prospect. This is clearly never going to be within reach for Mildura (well, using the Prospector example, it might be technically possible to travel to Melbourne and back in a day, but it wouldn't be a particularly useful option). However, I do note that if the Mildura service was operated in such a way to make a day return to Ballarat possible, the same benefit would apply. Melbourne need not be the be all and end all.

On that note, I'd agree with your three questions about the viability of a train service. But I disagree with the underlying assumption that I have been repeatedly trying to illuminate: why does it have to be a train?

As I wrote a couple of days ago, Mildura has excellent connectivity to Melbourne when compared to other cities its size - none of which have anything approaching four daily travel options in each direction. It's unclear to me how, say, a single 200-seat train each day is a superior option to 4 60-seat coaches, given that transit time will be comparable while flexibility is massively reduced. Furthermore, the unstated premise that public transport in the bush serves the sole purpose of radial connectivity to Melbourne (or Bendigo, or Ballarat) seems to me to be deeply flawed and in fact a consequence of the inflexibility of railways. Public transport in an era of good roads and comfortable buses can, and should, look beyond the paradigms established in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when rail was the only reliable method of long-distance transport.

There is a role for rail transport, as we well know, but compromising the efficacy of that role by attempting to impose legacy solutions on modern problems is not going to work.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
As I wrote two days ago...this story doesn't disappear.

Mr Kennett being delusional at the Vanilla Slice competition...

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/5681272/mildura-not-tempted-by-train-return/?cs=1259

Mike.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
As I wrote two days ago...this story doesn't disappear.

Mr Kennett being delusional at the Vanilla Slice competition...

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/5681272/mildura-not-tempted-by-train-return/?cs=1259

Mike.
The Vinelander

Well, Bill is waltzing around with his base ball bat, isn't he Shocked

I think you might have to swing a bit harder, than that, Bill, to ruffle Big Jeff's feathers.

BigShunter.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Appreciate the good faith engagement, please take my reply in the same spirit.

To Kalgoorlie first: there are quite clearly substantial similarities between this region and Mildura. What I would like to understand is just who is catching the train. Is it locals travelling to services in Perth? Is it tourists? Is it business? Obviously this is a difficult question to answer but it does give us some idea of how a similar service to Mildura might generate similar traffic levels - or not.

The obvious difference with Swan Hill is that a day return is possible to Melbourne, making one of the most oft-quoted use cases for country rail in general - the specialist medical appointment in Melbourne - a much more attractive prospect. This is clearly never going to be within reach for Mildura (well, using the Prospector example, it might be technically possible to travel to Melbourne and back in a day, but it wouldn't be a particularly useful option). However, I do note that if the Mildura service was operated in such a way to make a day return to Ballarat possible, the same benefit would apply. Melbourne need not be the be all and end all.

On that note, I'd agree with your three questions about the viability of a train service. But I disagree with the underlying assumption that I have been repeatedly trying to illuminate: why does it have to be a train?

As I wrote a couple of days ago, Mildura has excellent connectivity to Melbourne when compared to other cities its size - none of which have anything approaching four daily travel options in each direction. It's unclear to me how, say, a single 200-seat train each day is a superior option to 4 60-seat coaches, given that transit time will be comparable while flexibility is massively reduced. Furthermore, the unstated premise that public transport in the bush serves the sole purpose of radial connectivity to Melbourne (or Bendigo, or Ballarat) seems to me to be deeply flawed and in fact a consequence of the inflexibility of railways. Public transport in an era of good roads and comfortable buses can, and should, look beyond the paradigms established in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when rail was the only reliable method of long-distance transport.

There is a role for rail transport, as we well know, but compromising the efficacy of that role by attempting to impose legacy solutions on modern problems is not going to work.
potatoinmymouth
Hi,
Yes, taken in same spirit. Appreciate the debate being kept friendly.

https://www.tripadvisor.in/ShowUserReviews-g255103-d1197808-r512075521-Transwa-Perth_Greater_Perth_Western_Australia.html

From Tripadvisor you can select different categories of feedback, ie business, family etc and get an idea of at least who is providing feedback.

Gut feel tells me the users for Prospector are probably similar to other similar long runs in NSW. ie mixed bag travelling one of the cheaper ways with time on their hands.

Ok why should it have a train?
Well I think its basically the same as other regional trains. Because others do, so why not them? Afterall its the basic reason for returning trains to other areas of Vic and NSW, including Broken Hill.

Is this reason enough, no. But politically it often is.

Is a train a superior service to bus?
It can certainly be far more superior and personally I would never be attracted to use a regional coach over a train, especially with kids.

If we applied the logic, buses are better than trains for route and timetable flexibility every regional and some commuter and and most tram services would be closed tomorrow. The logic (BTW) makes perfect economic and logistic common sense, but the public don't buy it and never have. When ever a bus replaces a train, patronage normally drops off. People simply don't like travelling long distance by bus over trains, even if the bus is longer. Look at Canberra, bus is faster but they still are able to run 3 services a day and likely if they ran 5, they would fill those too. Also same reason govts are spending billions putting trams back in, (Mostly I don't buy the whole road congestion bit as the numbers compared to road numbers are too small).

EDIT:
For me the only question to re-instate the service is simply
How much extra will it cost to run the train after the current track works are complete? And is this worth it compared to other lines?

The actual track work that maybe required is over 300km of track.

Operational expense wise, you basically just run one of the two Maryborough services another 300km north and return, so you are only paying for another 300km.

The govt can value add further by running the train via Geelong to Ballarat connecting with service from Melbourne and replacing one of the Geelong services AND apease those calling for a return of Geelong to Ballarat services.

ie one train can tick so many boxes for the govt, without spending that much more.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The problem with country bus services is the type of bus actually used. They are cramped slow to load (Note 1) and are difficult to enter unless one is very fit. What is required is a bus specficly setup for country public transport. These would be low floor, articulated, a separate luggage area/rack, ie something like the Sprinters or N Sets have, Wider and multiple doors. make them either wider or use 1 plus 2 seating.

Note 1: You can get 200 people on a train in a faction of the time it takes to get 40 people onto a bus.

woodford
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Nine bees last night says Mildura trains will be returned under guy.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Nine bees last night says Mildura trains will be returned under guy.
freightgate
But what did the rest of the hive have to say? Nine bees seems like a pretty small sample size in the scheme of things guy!

School holidays are great, I remember them well, I bet you are dreading going back to English class next week!

BG
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Apologies for the iPad typos.

Win news or nine news stated trains would return to Mildura under guy.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Apologies for the iPad typos.

Win news or nine news stated trains would return to Mildura under guy.
freightgate
You mean Guy I assume? Not just some guy. It really isn't that hard to read your posts before hitting the Go button, especially when it is a one liner. And this RP thingy does have an edit function.

Your posts are quite often so badly written as to completely lose their meaning. If you want people to take your comments seriously (or even read them for that matter) spelling and grammar is a good place to start.

BG
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Apologies for the iPad typos.

Win news or nine news stated trains would return to Mildura under guy.
You mean Guy I assume? Not just some guy. It really isn't that hard to read your posts before hitting the Go button, especially when it is a one liner. And this RP thingy does have an edit function.

Your posts are quite often so badly written as to completely lose their meaning. If you want people to take your comments seriously (or even read them for that matter) spelling and grammar is a good place to start.

BG
BrentonGolding
to be fair BG, typing on pads (Apple or Android) is a bugger, and the RP pages are different than PC Web pages.
For Android version edit doesn't exist, nor do the insert of quotes or replies.

And don't get me started on auto correct and "intelligent type ahead" that will not turn off

Not the fault of RP, it's just the tech head designers of the different machines.

cheers
John
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The following https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/well-bring-train-back-nationals-make-election-promise-to-mildura article states the service will be restored via Ballarat to Melbourne so this would surely mean a train change at either Maryborough or Ballarat but you would be changing onto a much faster service.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The problem with country bus services is the type of bus actually used. They are cramped slow to load (Note 1) and are difficult to enter unless one is very fit. What is required is a bus specficly setup for country public transport. These would be low floor, articulated, a separate luggage area/rack, ie something like the Sprinters or N Sets have, Wider and multiple doors. make them either wider or use 1 plus 2 seating.

Note 1: You can get 200 people on a train in a faction of the time it takes to get 40 people onto a bus.

woodford
woodford
More to bus issues than just that.

Driver pulls up, walks off bus, gets bags for those departing.

Checks tickets for those wanting to get on, loads bags, leaves. 3-5min per stop.

Then there is the 15-20min stop every 2-3h for toilet, food (assuming they still do this).

On the bus, the driver doesn't want you walking around. Toilets used to rarely work or you were asked not to use.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
As I wrote yesterday and earlier this week...this subject doesn't lay down for very long...


http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/5683438/mildura-candidate-ali-cupper-cautious-on-passenger-rail-plan/?cs=1889

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/5683427/rail-expert-welcomes-coalitions-passenger-rail-plan-for-mildura-but-detail-needed/?cs=1511


I think we can successfully keep this thread active for the duration of the 2018 campaign...Smile

Mike.

post script.......and one more for luck...

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/5683404/well-bring-train-back-nationals-make-election-promise-to-mildura/?cs=1259

...and I didn't post the editorial in today's Sunraysia Daily.

...all this in one days paper...and some of us...(well not me as I am connected to the Mildura community) doubt the local support for the return of the passenger train...hmm. Smile
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Is a train a superior service to bus?
RTT_Rules
For me the answer will always be YES, and not only because of my long held love for trains. I have also been a fan of buses for a long time. I feel safer and more comfortable on a train, especially when crowded. I expect many others feel similarly...
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
The major advantage of a bus is that if one road is blocked, there's usually an alternative.

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