2018 State Election / Transport

 
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Track capacity has been addressed with CD9 project and will be further addressed when the new HCS starts rolling out around 2020. $500 million is going into the line outside of the metro area. Track, signalling and LX upgrades this is where the biggest time savings can be made. As has been pointed out on RP elsewhere around 40 minutes could be shaved of the travel time if trains could travel at 160km for the marjority of the journey. Let’s hope the current upgrades will get us closer to that.
Lockie91
Track capacity and speed are two different things. You could have a train in each track section to achieve a high capacity but they won't be moving very fast. The signalling upgrade west of Pakenham is essentially more signals spaced closer together. Unless you can change the acceleration and braking curves of vlines fleet then closely spaced signals will result in the same, or possibly longer, running times.

Apart from upgrading the Nth Track to 160 for counter peak flows, how do you propose to get 160 for the majority of the line? A stopping all stations train doesn't get much above 130 between Nar Nar Goon and Longwarry, then there's the small issue of the hills and curves between between Longwarry and Warragul, and the same again between Moe and Morwell, which doesn't leave much scope for anywhere else.

As for LX upgrades, unless it has a speed restriction on it, 'upgrading' it by grade separation does absolutely nothing to speed up trains.

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  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@John.Z it has been posted before, Traralgon behind sparks is the least of the lines problems.

interesting that you chose Warragul as an example.

41km Pakenham to Warragul takes 31 minutes(today 6:16pm) average 80kph only 2 stops. Running @ 160kph would save about 15 minutes in that section alone.
It is a combination of track conditions causing the problem. Nothing to do with Metro.

And that is a lot shorter run than Pakenham to Flinders St.

cheers
John
Both sides of Pakenham have issues.  You have pick out the service with only two stops, most services stop at all the stations that are 4km to 5km apart between Pakenham and Traralgon.

The Melbourne side of Pakenham is nothing but a contemptuous joke for all those east of Caulfield, not just Vline Services.

The statistics that really matter are the time taken to get from Southern Cross to Pakenham with the average speed of about 40km/hr.   Then out to Warragul, it takes nearly two hours to cover 100km.  

Its slow.  Its unreliable.  For all the money spent there are some happy motorists and the train service is no better.  But stating the obvious over and over is tiring.  The result is mediocre.
skitz
I'm gunna try to address some of the other comment this morning also.

Of course I picked the best Pakenham to Traralgon. You want me to highlight the worst to reduce further your contention that is metro causing all the woes of the world.
For the record, the SAS takes 4 minutes longer and reduces the average speed to 72kph. Not good, even by some of Metro's performance.

It sure is frustrating waiting at yellow/red signals. One of the reasons I hated driving to work. It would be some much better if everybody else stayed at home. Unfortunately, we live in the real world and have to share.

Looking specifically at the run from Warragul to Melbourne, we can see how long it takes, how much it can be improved, and how much those improvements will cost (very rough guesses). You can be the judge on what is reasonable. Not even going to look beyond Warragul - V/line out there is woeful but work is already underway.

Flinders St - Caulfield:    11.8 km  12 minutes average 59kph, speed X2 save 6 minutes  : extra double track cost $2B
(assuming can overcome the nimby bun fight)

Caulfield - Dandenong:   19.4 km  26 minutes average 45kph, speed X3 save 16 minutes : quad track cost $3B, tunnel $5B
(assuming can overcome the nimby skyrail bun fight , multiplied by 10)

Dandenong - Pakenham: 26.8 km  22 minutes average 73kph, speed X2 save 11 minutes : extra double track cost $500M

Pakenham - Warragul:    41.8 km  31 minutes average 82kph, speed X2 save 15 minutes : extra double track cost $500M

I did point out previously where you can get the big bang for the bucks.
You might not like it, but the 3rd & 4th on the list are the more achievable and deliver the most time saving.

Time might seem to stand still whilst waiting at a red light, but it's just an illusion. Just enjoy the extra reading time.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

@John.Z it has been posted before, Traralgon behind sparks is the least of the lines problems.

interesting that you chose Warragul as an example.

41km Pakenham to Warragul takes 31 minutes(today 6:16pm) average 80kph only 2 stops. Running @ 160kph would save about 15 minutes in that section alone.
It is a combination of track conditions causing the problem. Nothing to do with Metro.

And that is a lot shorter run than Pakenham to Flinders St.

cheers
John
Both sides of Pakenham have issues.  You have pick out the service with only two stops, most services stop at all the stations that are 4km to 5km apart between Pakenham and Traralgon.

The Melbourne side of Pakenham is nothing but a contemptuous joke for all those east of Caulfield, not just Vline Services.

The statistics that really matter are the time taken to get from Southern Cross to Pakenham with the average speed of about 40km/hr.   Then out to Warragul, it takes nearly two hours to cover 100km.  

Its slow.  Its unreliable.  For all the money spent there are some happy motorists and the train service is no better.  But stating the obvious over and over is tiring.  The result is mediocre.
I'm gunna try to address some of the other comment this morning also.

Of course I picked the best Pakenham to Traralgon. You want me to highlight the worst to reduce further your contention that is metro causing all the woes of the world.
For the record, the SAS takes 4 minutes longer and reduces the average speed to 72kph. Not good, even by some of Metro's performance.

It sure is frustrating waiting at yellow/red signals. One of the reasons I hated driving to work. It would be some much better if everybody else stayed at home. Unfortunately, we live in the real world and have to share.

Looking specifically at the run from Warragul to Melbourne, we can see how long it takes, how much it can be improved, and how much those improvements will cost (very rough guesses). You can be the judge on what is reasonable. Not even going to look beyond Warragul - V/line out there is woeful but work is already underway.

Flinders St - Caulfield:    11.8 km  12 minutes average 59kph, speed X2 save 6 minutes  : extra double track cost $2B
(assuming can overcome the nimby bun fight)

Caulfield - Dandenong:   19.4 km  26 minutes average 45kph, speed X3 save 16 minutes : quad track cost $3B, tunnel $5B
(assuming can overcome the nimby skyrail bun fight , multiplied by 10)

Dandenong - Pakenham: 26.8 km  22 minutes average 73kph, speed X2 save 11 minutes : extra double track cost $500M

Pakenham - Warragul:    41.8 km  31 minutes average 82kph, speed X2 save 15 minutes : extra double track cost $500M

I did point out previously where you can get the big bang for the bucks.
You might not like it, but the 3rd & 4th on the list are the more achievable and deliver the most time saving.

Time might seem to stand still whilst waiting at a red light, but it's just an illusion. Just enjoy the extra reading time.

cheers
John
justarider
This is the kind of analysis that led to the Bendigo line singling: in the real world, speed improvements are not much good if they don't come with a reliability improvement. Not much point saving 10 minutes to Dandenong if a late-running Metro at Caulfield can still send the whole thing cactus.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/victorias-triple-a-revised-up-by-standard-and-poors/
This is a massive windfall for Labor. It really strikes right at the Liberal infrastructure spending counter arguments of “Labor just get us more into debt” and frees them up both in the lead up to the election and as a second term government to put the hammer down on the Big Build.

(If you believe the credit agencies, that is!)
Credit rating means nothing when the whole lot is funded by the sale of the Port of Melbourne and Victoria's share of Snowy Hydro.

What happens when the money runs out?  Does any of the spending actually generate a return based on long term growth?
skitz

Hmm...another economist..
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@John.Z it has been posted before, Traralgon behind sparks is the least of the lines problems.
....
It is a combination of track conditions causing the problem. Nothing to do with Metro.

cheers
John
Both sides of Pakenham have issues.  
...
The Melbourne side of Pakenham is nothing but a contemptuous joke for all those east of Caulfield, not just Vline Services.
...
Its slow.  Its unreliable.  For all the money spent there are some happy motorists and the train service is no better.  But stating the obvious over and over is tiring.  The result is mediocre.
I'm gunna try to address some of the other comment this morning also.
.....

Flinders St - Caulfield:    11.8 km  12 minutes average 59kph, speed X2 save 6 minutes  : extra double track cost $2B
Caulfield - Dandenong:   19.4 km  26 minutes average 45kph, speed X3 save 16 minutes : quad track cost $3B, tunnel $5B
Dandenong - Pakenham: 26.8 km  22 minutes average 73kph, speed X2 save 11 minutes : extra double track cost $500M
Pakenham - Warragul:    41.8 km  31 minutes average 82kph, speed X2 save 15 minutes : extra double track cost $500M
You might not like it, but the 3rd & 4th on the list are the more achievable and deliver the most time saving.
....

cheers
John
This is the kind of analysis that led to the Bendigo line singling: in the real world, speed improvements are not much good if they don't come with a reliability improvement. Not much point saving 10 minutes to Dandenong if a late-running Metro at Caulfield can still send the whole thing cactus.
potatoinmymouth
come on PIMM, a cheap shot at a genuine effort to put the problem into perspective.

NB: I did of course mean double track (not extra double track) for Dandy to Warragul.

We can argue back and forth until the trains finally arrive,
but $500M will buy an awful lot of improvement in the Regional lines  (20km - 40 km) that are just a drop in the bucket for the Metro area.

How much is ARTC spending on NE to up-standard the whole line. $235M buys a huge amount. What could they do with $500M ?

It's a bit rich for some here to assert that the line outwards from Dandenong is so bad that it cannot be improved (even given the sort of money we know that it needs) and then demand that the solution is to spend 10 times as much in the Metro area for SFA different result.

I don't disagree that reliability is essential. A LOT of money is already being spent on that across the whole Metro, and Dandenong line in particular. MM1 is still a long way off to ease the frustrations.

Making even more major change suggestions that cannot happen in the near future doesn't help the current situation. That is why I postulated that work on Dandeong outwards is much more achievable sooner.

"another economist" is yet another cheap shot.
If I were to put one of those disgusting hats on, my attitude would be
 bugger the whole line after Warragul, Busses rule. If that doesn't increase profitability, shut down after Pakenham.
But I'm not an economist, and recognise the social benefit of regional train services.

cheers
John
  PaulM Station Staff

Even better: terminate Gippsland trains at Pakenham and offer through-passengers a quick cross-platform transfer to a waiting Metro train. That strikes me as the most efficient solution of all.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Even better: terminate Gippsland trains at Pakenham and offer through-passengers a quick cross-platform transfer to a waiting Metro train. That strikes me as the most efficient solution of all.
PaulM
That has been discussed ad infinitum for the past decade.  It's not much fun for country passengers 'stopping-all-stations' for the next 70 minutes in a spark.  It just won't work politically.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

It is a bit unusual for this type of critical comment to come from me but I feel like this Gippsland discussion is going around in circles. In the short term, the Metro tunnel will do plenty to address reliability etc., but I think the Bendigo line should be duplicated before the Gippsland line is touched, because that is a more urgent situation. Long term, the bypass line would probably be a good idea, but at the moment, maybe, as has already been suggested, a few passing loops where there is space would probably suffice.

In other news, I think that there has been some progress on the HCMT front, with some more carriages having been delivered.  http://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/9klaz4/the_new_hcmt_have_just_been_delivered_at_newport/
Anyone got any news on when we will start seeing these in testing? Is it possible that the first will be tested in time for the election?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Even better: terminate Gippsland trains at Pakenham and offer through-passengers a quick cross-platform transfer to a waiting Metro train. That strikes me as the most efficient solution of all.
That has been discussed ad infinitum for the past decade.  It's not much fun for country passengers 'stopping-all-stations' for the next 70 minutes in a spark.  It just won't work politically.
Carnot
If the Government ever went down this path, they defiantly would address overcrowding problems (Up side of Warragul), as patronage would plummet.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/victorias-triple-a-revised-up-by-standard-and-poors/
This is a massive windfall for Labor. It really strikes right at the Liberal infrastructure spending counter arguments of “Labor just get us more into debt” and frees them up both in the lead up to the election and as a second term government to put the hammer down on the Big Build.

(If you believe the credit agencies, that is!)
Credit rating means nothing when the whole lot is funded by the sale of the Port of Melbourne and Victoria's share of Snowy Hydro.

What happens when the money runs out?  Does any of the spending actually generate a return based on long term growth?

Hmm...another economist..
The Vinelander
Hmm.....another cheap shot of pointlessness.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

come on PIMM, a cheap shot at a genuine effort to put the problem into perspective.

NB: I did of course mean double track (not extra double track) for Dandy to Warragul.

We can argue back and forth until the trains finally arrive,
but $500M will buy an awful lot of improvement in the Regional lines  (20km - 40 km) that are just a drop in the bucket for the Metro area.
justarider

Sorry John, wasn’t meant to be a cheap shot but I do apologise it turned out a bit snarky.

The point was more that I think your analysis focuses more on a short-term solution to a superficial problem that will have either small positive or small negative effects on long-term outcomes.

The stark reality is you can’t mix frequent all-stopping services with expresses from either a reliability or travel time perspective.

Even assuming everything runs perfectly to time every day, slotting say 4tph from Gippsland into 20tph from Dandenong leaves you with the old joke about suburbans stopping at the stations and expresses stopping between the stations.

Of course the reality is everything does not run perfectly to time every day, and expecting say an up Bairnsdale to run ~200km over infrastructure of varying quality to meet a 2 minute wide path at Pakenham is a recipe for disaster, especially given the potential to screw up the junction at Dandenong.

In fact, I’ll bet on the fact that nearly all of the time savings you mention down of Dandenong could be attributed to padding in the present timetable in a hopeless attempt to deal with this problem.

As I’ve written before, however - and on this I think we are in furious agreement - quadding South Yarra-Dandenong is not justifiable for Gippsland services alone.

Say 4-5tph from Gippy, 6tph expresses stopping Dandenong-(SRL?)-Caulfield-South Yarra-City and a view to 4tph Leongatha, and you solve a few problems at once.

Very expensive but the only investment I can see that won’t be money down the drain.
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
The facts are that rail travel from Traralgon to Melbourne is slower and vastly more unreliable than it was 10 years ago.
There is no doubt the problem is generally not in the V/Line section but in the metro run. It is not helped by V/Line’s operation of most trains stopping all stations between Pakenham and Drouin for miserably low passenger numbers. The reputational damage to rail travel has been immense over the last two years with all the service outages due to metro works.

Anyone who advocates for dumping V/Line passengers at Pakenham should remember that many passengers drive long distances to railway stations from outlying towns - a 20 minute forced change just makes an already long day that bit longer.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/victorias-triple-a-revised-up-by-standard-and-poors/
This is a massive windfall for Labor. It really strikes right at the Liberal infrastructure spending counter arguments of “Labor just get us more into debt” and frees them up both in the lead up to the election and as a second term government to put the hammer down on the Big Build.

(If you believe the credit agencies, that is!)
Credit rating means nothing when the whole lot is funded by the sale of the Port of Melbourne and Victoria's share of Snowy Hydro.

What happens when the money runs out?  Does any of the spending actually generate a return based on long term growth?

Hmm...another economist..
Hmm.....another cheap shot of pointlessness.
skitz

Indeed...when you have something worthwhile to contribute, I'll be happy to cease the inane comments...
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
come on PIMM, a cheap shot at a genuine effort to put the problem into perspective.

NB: I did of course mean double track (not extra double track) for Dandy to Warragul.

We can argue back and forth until the trains finally arrive,
but $500M will buy an awful lot of improvement in the Regional lines  (20km - 40 km) that are just a drop in the bucket for the Metro area.

Sorry John, wasn’t meant to be a cheap shot but I do apologise it turned out a bit snarky.

The point was more that I think your analysis focuses more on a short-term solution to a superficial problem that will have either small positive or small negative effects on long-term outcomes.

The stark reality is you can’t mix frequent all-stopping services with expresses from either a reliability or travel time perspective. ....
potatoinmymouth
well PIMM, they don't call us both grumpy old men without good reason

Short term (3-5 years) is the best I can suggest to those that want a big fix NOW.

We all know the real solution is quad from Pakenham to CBD. The growth in both Metro and Regional will demand it.
The SRL may take off some of the pressure, but continual growth will just add more.

LXRA made it near impossible to use the existing corridor which leaves a legacy of very expensive upgrade/replace/duplication.
The reality is it's not going to happen in the next 20 years.

In the West and North there is a big bucket of money ($15B MARL) to make things happen. It is not really being given for regional, but they happen to tag along for some of the benefits.  

The East of state doesn't have that luck. It needs to scrimp funds together on it's own merit - which is not much in the scheme of things. So we are back to less expensive quick fixes to try and stop the rot eating further in. Either that or busses triumph.

EDIT: didn't mean to ignore Leogatha. If it ever happens would be part of the Regional Growth I mentioned.
Since essentially a new build might be better to veer off at KWR and go to Pakenham. Cranbourne/Clyde not going to cope without a lot extra itself. There is going to be lot of growth out there in next 10 years.

cheers
John
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The real way to get extra capacity to the South East would be to expand the Port of Hastings, and build a new rail link to it. The suggested route for this was to quad the Dandenong Line, turn south along the Cranbourne and then from there across to the Port.

Building the new freight lines as Dual Gauge would give V/Line access to a set of 80 km/h tracks to Dandenong - probably much faster and more reliable than the current arrangements. You would just have to make sure that freights were scheduled well clear of passenger trains.

Of course, Port of Hastings might not be expanded, Bay West might not be expanded. But if you are looking for justification for more rails, expanding the port will probably be the only one.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The real way to get extra capacity to the South East would be to expand the Port of Hastings, and build a new rail link to it. The suggested route for this was to quad the Dandenong Line, turn south along the Cranbourne and then from there across to the Port.

Building the new freight lines as Dual Gauge would give V/Line access to a set of 80 km/h tracks to Dandenong - probably much faster and more reliable than the current arrangements. You would just have to make sure that freights were scheduled well clear of passenger trains.

Of course, Port of Hastings might not be expanded, Bay West might not be expanded. But if you are looking for justification for more rails, expanding the port will probably be the only one.
TOQ-1
Another Port highly unlikely given all the money Govt took from the new owners (lessees) on the promise of no competition.

How about a new International Airport at Dalmore. Airports are sexy and get lots of money.

cheers
John
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Dandenong - Pakenham: 26.8 km 22 minutes average 73kph, speed X2 save 11 minutes : extra double track cost $500M Pakenham - Warragul: 41.8 km 31 minutes average 82kph, speed X2 save 15 minutes : extra double track cost $500M I did point out previously where you can get the big bang for the bucks. You might not like it, but the 3rd & 4th on the list are the more achievable and deliver the most time saving.
justarider
I'm sorry John but I must be missing something here, can you please explain what upgrades you think will achieve a doubling of speed between Dandenong - Pakenham and Pakenham to Warragul?

It's a bit rich for some here to assert that the line outwards from Dandenong is so bad that it cannot be improved
justarider
The line outwards from Dandenong isn't bad per se, but i'm struggling to think of what upgrades you have in mind that would come anywhere near the figures you listed. Sure you could upgrade the line from Dandenong to Pakenham to 130 or 160 (and ease out some curves) but all that is going to do is allow the V/Line service to catch up to the stopping all stations spark quicker.

Same again for the section Pakenham to Warragul, where is this additional speed and time saving coming from that provides this 'bang for buck' you speak of? There's only two restrictive curves  on the south line between Pakenham and Longwarry, both of which are 140km/h and don't really affect trains at all. The Nth line has a couple more curve boards due its lesser standard but again, they don't greatly affect running times. There is potential between Longwarry and Warragul to increase speeds slightly but due to the terrain time savings would be measured in seconds rather than multiple minutes like you claim.

I'm interested to hear your justifications, but to me at this stage your theory can't be transferred into reality.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Matthew Guy to reveal $19b plan for 200kmh regional Victoria super trains

"A $19 BILLION rebuilding of the regional railway network will introduce fast trains to Victoria if the Opposition wins November’s state election.

Under the radical Coalition plan for 200kmh train services, a Geelong-Melbourne journey would take as ­little as 32 minutes by 2022. And the duration of a journey between Ballarat and Melbourne would plummet to 45 minutes later in the decade.

Opposition Leader Matthew Guy will today pledge to build a “European-style” rail network to encourage more people to live in the country rather than in a booming Melbourne."

Source: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/state-election/matthew-guy-to-reveal-19b-plan-for-200kmh-regional-victoria-super-trains/news-story/fe9360c894b57c34a08b5c65e7cb9a95



Very interesting, especially opening up the Mildura Line, and more lines in the western half of the state. Would be nice to know if the Airport is considered in this.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I doubt whether this plan would be possible with only $19 billion on the table. Although it looks nice, I think that it's going to be RFR part 2 and do nothing to address reliability or access into the city. I would like to see some more details but $19 billion seems a bit cheap.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Dandenong - Pakenham: 26.8 km 22 minutes average 73kph, speed X2 save 11 minutes : extra double track cost $500M Pakenham - Warragul: 41.8 km 31 minutes average 82kph, speed X2 save 15 minutes : extra double track cost $500M I did point out previously where you can get the big bang for the bucks. You might not like it, but the 3rd & 4th on the list are the more achievable and deliver the most time saving.
I'm sorry John but I must be missing something here, can you please explain what upgrades you think will achieve a doubling of speed between Dandenong - Pakenham and Pakenham to Warragul?

It's a bit rich for some here to assert that the line outwards from Dandenong is so bad that it cannot be improved
The line outwards from Dandenong isn't bad per se, but i'm struggling to think of what upgrades you have in mind that would come anywhere near the figures you listed. Sure you could upgrade the line from Dandenong to Pakenham to 130 or 160 (and ease out some curves) but all that is going to do is allow the V/Line service to catch up to the stopping all stations spark quicker.

Same again for the section Pakenham to Warragul, where is this additional speed and time saving coming from that provides this 'bang for buck' you speak of? There's only two restrictive curves  on the south line between Pakenham and Longwarry, both of which are 140km/h and don't really affect trains at all. The Nth line has a couple more curve boards due its lesser standard but again, they don't greatly affect running times. There is potential between Longwarry and Warragul to increase speeds slightly but due to the terrain time savings would be measured in seconds rather than multiple minutes like you claim.

I'm interested to hear your justifications, but to me at this stage your theory can't be transferred into reality.
jakar
as you may have guessed by now, I am not an engineer, so my general observations is:
give an engineer a reasonable budget and a defined target to achieve and you will get a sensible plan to make it happen.

Trouble happens when the budget gets fiddled and/or the target is not well defined, if at all.

Having said that, I will have a go at suggesting why my "theory" is possible.

Dandenong-Pakenham
I will take your word that Dandenong-Pakenham isn't so bad per se.
Metro trains do have to do a lot of stop/start which isn't a good mix for expresses.
So spend the money on a new express track.
Since it does not stop at any mid stations, then doesn't need to go through their platforms at all - ie: no station alterations required. Additionally can occasionally deviant from the current path to ease some curves.
It doesn't have to be more than a single. A 10 minute run is a simple passing for a line with 2-3 tph each way.

BUT of course, then it would be all those pesky cars at 12 LX making the train slow down.
Some protection upgrade is needed to allow V/line to pass through at speed. Never going to be able to pay for 12 LX replacements, so need smarter solutions to the danger.

Pakenham-Warragul
You suggested 3 savings yourself, Restrictive curves, lesser standard, terrain.

But then dismiss each as "a few seconds" "don't really affect" - well the accumulation of all those things does add up to a resulting rubbish average speed.

Taking the most innocent sounding "restrictive curve... 140kph". It is not just the 20kph difference around the curve, it is the slow down time approaching and the acceleration afterward.
20kph difference for about 4km is 12 minutes lost, an exaggeration I admit, but do you see the point.

Plus the small single track section needs to be double. It's the slow down/acceleration across the points adding it's contribution  to the delays.

Plus yet another 12 LX to be worked out.

Is that enough superficial reality to work upon.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I doubt whether this plan would be possible with only $19 billion on the table. Although it looks nice, I think that it's going to be RFR part 2 and do nothing to address reliability or access into the city. I would like to see some more details but $19 billion seems a bit cheap.
reubstar6
It is election time after all
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/matthew-guy-to-reveal-19b-plan-for-200kmh-regional-victoria-super-trains

And this thread has just been discussing how the V/line escape from Melbourne into the Regions is crap.

Upgrade SCS to Pakenham to remove his road block to the magically 200kph to Barirnsdale. Just blew $5B.
SCS to Sunbury (MARL ?) another $5B.
SCS to Craigieburn or Wallan or somewhere another $$$B
SCS to Ballarat completely new line $$$B

Great ideas, have been discussed many times and inevitably come back to "not enough money" - not even $19B

Is this a CORE or NON-CORE promise ?

cheers
John
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Matthew Guy to reveal $19b plan for 200kmh regional Victoria super trains

"A $19 BILLION rebuilding of the regional railway network will introduce fast trains to Victoria if the Opposition wins November’s state election.

Under the radical Coalition plan for 200kmh train services, a Geelong-Melbourne journey would take as ­little as 32 minutes by 2022. And the duration of a journey between Ballarat and Melbourne would plummet to 45 minutes later in the decade.

Opposition Leader Matthew Guy will today pledge to build a “European-style” rail network to encourage more people to live in the country rather than in a booming Melbourne."

Source: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/state-election/matthew-guy-to-reveal-19b-plan-for-200kmh-regional-victoria-super-trains/news-story/fe9360c894b57c34a08b5c65e7cb9a95



Very interesting, especially opening up the Mildura Line, and more lines in the western half of the state. Would be nice to know if the Airport is considered in this.
John.Z
On the Gippsland side the issue will be how to get trains out of suburbia and what that looks like.

For example, say a dedicated track appeared, what provision would there be to service express metro services?  

Would a solution be something like:

- dedicated express track CBD to Dandenong, possibly one stop at Clayton?
- extra express track out to Pakenham
- Augmentation of the services beyond Pakenham to acknowledge the three traffic types (Warragul-Pakenham, Traralgon to Warragul, Bairnsdale)

Many ways of cutting the cake.  Will the services be electrified?  Will it be segregated from Metro full stop?  Many, many questions and solutions.

My prediction would be a political focus on the run-time to the destination for a service that does not exist (just like they did with the original RRL project).  Or will we see a repeat of what we have now on the Gippsland line utilising high speed rolling stock to service trains 4km apart, stopping all stations, stuck behind the local service.
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
I really wonder what the rationale is for virtually all the Gippsland trains stopping at closely spaced micro towns between Pakenham and Drouin? Patronage is minimal.

Travel to Ballarat and it's generally a great run after the suburbs.  

People who regularly use the Gippsland line know what a miserable & unreliable experience it is these days.
  PTVic Beginner

So now that the Libs have announced this pie in the sky 19 Billion Regional Rail HSR Plan, how will labor respond. Will they critique them and doubt their ability to complete based on what happened with Avalon, Rowville and Doncaster Rail. They are already planning HSR to Geelong and Andrews hinted about HSR to Ballarat when he was talking about the Airport Rail Link.

Maybe there’s a MM2 announcement coming ?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I can only see Skyrail 2 (parallel to current Skyrail) being the solution for fixing Gippsland services.  Who jumped up and down about the original Skyrail?

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