Matthew Guy to reveal $19b plan for 200kmh regional Victoria super trains

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 16 Oct 2018 09:27
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Some images supplied by Liberal party

True Believers
Geelong Metro?  Interesting.  So they'll keep the dual gauge to Gheringhap and extend it to Bannockburn?

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

So there's a Geelong Metro and also not just restoring services to Mildura but also to Horsham and Hamilton.

Anyways I remember very well that Matthew Guy said: We can't afford a 50 billion suburban rail loop (mind you with a generous 30 year time frame and a demand to support such a project). This is an election stunt, not for future generations. Pie in the sky

Then decides to announce his own pie in the sky plans, just before an election. And says his plan will decentralise the state. But doesn't suburban rail loop achieves this in a much more effective manner. More likely this plan would encourage more people from regional areas to commute into Melbourne (to work), not decentralise at all.

I'm not saying the all of the plan is terrible, but has less evidence to prove it's worthiness, (at the very least suburban loop had some evidence to back it's case). But ALP is already planning a fast rail to Geelong and is already upgrading regional rail steadily. This seems a little over the top to try to please regional seats.

Anyways Matthew Guy can't have it both ways. Telling the Labor party is spending too much on politic rail projects that just happens to be before the election and then announce his own, which is clearly made to grab seats for the election, without much development or evidence backing his idea. It's purely rushed and a dud. Matthew is a total hypocrite and can change his mind in a blink of an eye. Remember he said I don't support the West Gate Tunnel, but later changed his mind and supported it with his East West Link dud.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

A small clanger on the press release for Shepparton:

"Reaching speeds of up to 160 kilometres per hour on the Shepparton line, the state wide network will be the fastest in Australia. The Shepparton line has a current maximum of around only 80 kilometres per hour."

Errr, it's currently 95-115 km/h between Shepp and Seymour...  Heck, I was a passenger on an R-class steamer a few weeks ago zipping along at those speeds on that line.

Hmmmm....
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Wow! Someone drew some lines and wrote numbers on a piece of paper.  I wonder when Guy and Co will be tapped on the shoulder and told the real meaning of the word, "plan".
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
@TheVinelander with the greatest of love and respect most of the Country V/Line network is class 2 or below. Matt Guy has not a Scooby Doo on how to implement this. Where did he get $19 Billion from? Did he just quote $20 Billion then round it down to $19 billion a-la supermarkets?

The whole network electrified with new rolling stock and a complete re build of track for a sizable portion of the Victorian rail network for $19 Billion? In the words of the great Michael Caton, tell em their dreaming.

Michael
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The whole network electrified with new rolling stock and a complete re build of track for a sizable portion of the Victorian rail network for $19 Billion? In the words of the great Michael Caton, tell em their dreaming.
mejhammers

It’s worse. There’s no electrification. The price is somehow supposed to include a Dandy quad. There’s no amplification elsewhere like Bendigo. Class 1 to Class 0 represents the Geelong line, one line to Ballarat, one to Bendigo, one to Traralgon, and nothing to Seymour. Double decker trains have been mentioned for no good reason.

This is an incoherent mess, I’m afraid.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

....Then decides to announce his own pie in the sky plans, just before an election. ....
True Believers
True. The evidence is that, when asked about costings, etc., Matthew said they hadn't been done but would be done prior to November.

Really? They've had 4 years to work this thoroughly through and only now are they coming up with these ideas?
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Matthew Guy today repeated the point that his plan is for all of Victoria, compared to Labor's plan being overly Melbourne-centric. Apart from the fact that his plan continues to funnel everyone into Melbourne, therefore also being Melbourne-centric, it ignores V/Line's biggest problems: Suburban Melbourne.

Geelong Line, packed with passengers for suburban stations at Deer Park, Tarneit & Wyndham Vale
Ballarat Line, packed with passengers for suburban stations at Deer Park, Caroline Springs & Melton
Bendigo Line, shares suburban tracks from Sunshine - Sunbury, providing a slow journey
Seymour Line, shares suburban tracks from North Melbourne - Craigieburn, providing a slow journey
Gippsland Line, shares suburban tracks from Southern Cross - Pakenham, providing an agonisingly slow journey.

Add to this the ridiculously slow run for V/Line trains from South Kensington to Southern Cross which is just insultin. I mean the advantage of catching the train is you can avoid the traffic, crawling through West Melbourne at 20km/h just reminds you of what its like to be stuck in the car.

Then their is the elephant in the room, the single track bottlenecks. These just stuff every plan for a fast timetable the second their is 1 delay along any line.  

Spend the money there, fix these problems, then introduce 2 proper express services per hour on each line during both peak periods. No need for new faster rollingstock, no need to replace relatively new infrastructure (RFR rebuilt these lines only 15 years ago, is Guy seriously suggesting we rip them up again?) and no need to shut major lines down for weeks at a time to achieve any of it.

-------

Another thing, he has also included in this a promise to return passenger trains to Horsham, Hamilton, Donald and Mildura. Horsham is a no-brainer, and should happen regardless of who is occupying the office at No. 1 Treasury Place, but Hamilton and Donald are pushing it a bit and as for Mildura, please. This is transparent as a pane of glass. There is more chance of me being elected the next pope than Matthew Guy following through on this last one.

Not saying I don't think it should happen, just saying I doubt very strongly that it will happen.

------

This seems to me to be a bit of a rush job from Guy & Co. They were caught on the hop by the overall positive response from Labor's rail policies and have had to come up with this, probably scribbled on the back of a napkin at the Lobster Cave.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Just some more specific criticisms from up here in the cheap seats:

- No plan to electrify any of these lines, despite his claims of speeds of up to 200km/h
- No plan to electrify to Wyndham Vale, Melton or Wallan
- No plan for how to get around the whole Pakenham to Melbourne bit. Skyrail out of the question? You won't get a tunnel that long for $19 Billion that's for sure
- No suggestion of what is to happen to the fleet of 75+ 3 car Vlocities, some of which are brand new. They will be surplus to requirement when Guy's new whiz bang fast trains come into play.
- Colac to Bannockburn and Waurn Ponds to Werribee is NOT a metro. Not in any way.

The more I think of this plan the more it doesn't make any sense. There are some serious questions that need to be answered. But for now, seriously, I want Matthew Guy to answer just this one question:

How does he plan for a train to get from Melbourne (either Southern Cross or Flinders St, he can take his pick) to Traralgon in 63 minutes? It currently takes over 80 minutes for that train to just reach Pakenham. As I said, you won't get a tunnel in under the budget he has set, not with everything else included, probably not just on its own. Even if you did, the value for money would be horrific. Would he consider Skyrail, seems to me to be the only viable option. Even then, 63 minutes? Tell him he's dreamin.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Starting a new thread for this as it is the first significant rail policy we have seen for some time from the coalition.  I personally think it is a winner but is targeted at regional growth which is good.  

We still need the suburban loop in stages.

We will now need the connection to the main suburban loop stations from these trains.

Matthew Guy to reveal $19b plan for 200kmh regional Victoria super trains
bevans
Bevans, if you think that this is a winner, it is no wonder the Rail Network is the state it is in. $19 Billion to transform the entire regional rail network? If you think that is doable Bevans, I want what you are on. Just analyse what Mathew Guy is stating rather than getting mesmerized by the headlines. If you just sat down and think it through you would come to the conclusion that it is based on total absurdity and is pants wetting to the extreme.

For a start 60% of the network needs a total re-build for 200+ km/h operation. It would also probably need electrification. Single Track sections (and we have a lot in this state) will need to be doubled, signalling will need to be revamped and a new fleet will have to be purchased (and they will be expensive, xtraps just will not cut it.) And that is just for starters. Just how he will deal with the Gippsland corridor to accommodate express running sharing the same corridor as the Melbourne Metro services? He is dead set against skyrail. That only leaves tunnelling. 40kms of double track alone will cost more than $19 Billion.

Still putting your faith in the Coalition? Just remember what the last Coalition Govt has done. They ripped $400 Million from the Regional rail project to fund a road by pass. Indeed the biggest project for the V/Line network was Waurn Ponds Station. This is simply a ridiculous though bubble, influenced by the Regional Rail Alliance because they were caught on the hop by the ALP. The Coalition is taking us for mugs and I for one is not buying that BS.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I'm not saying the all of the plan is terrible
TrueBelievers

It is a stretch calling this belch of a soundbite, a plan!!

Michael
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
46 minutes to Ballarat even - that will be 'exciting' coming down Ingliston Bank to Bacchus Marsh.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

After some quick calculations, the 164 minuts to Albury requiires a cruising speed of 200kph ALL the way, this is imposssible. The VLocity's simply have not got the power to do 200kph up ANY kind of grade. WIthout any kind of calulation (yet) the 45min to Ballarat is simply a day dream (the Ingliston bank). It would be a waste of time to analyse any more of the plan, little of it would actually be achievable.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A randon thought by woodford, you have been warned!.

In the RFR project, they up graded nearly 500 kilometres of not that good a track to class 1 AND purchased 25 3car VLocity sets to run on this track. Upgrading Victoria's main pass's lines to class 1 for 19billion is probably acheivable, that though would not produce ANYTHING like the times mentioned by the liberal party. To get even close to those times would need to upgrade all country pass lines in the Melbourne metro area AND the entrance to Southern Cross station, and that even by itself would likey consume most of the planed budget.

woodford
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

200 kms/hr...zzzzz.......

Geelong should be 20-25mins max, Bendigo needs to be in the 45 minute realm.

This seems to be patching up existing lines rather than dedicated express tracks. use the existing lines for stopping all stations...

If you want the population to move to regional centres, it needs to be fast and convenient to commute to Melbourne.
  blowfish Junior Train Controller

Is Metro the new political speak for timetable changes?

The state population will need to commute to Melbourne for the most part, be it sport, education or other major services. That will occur regardless.

Without actually driving the economic change in Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo, it's much of the same.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
This plan is likely to be well received by the community so his chances at November have gone up. Lifting speeds in the current regional network will win votes.

Running a Geelong metro is also a good idea and will win votes but why not extend to the Ballarat terminus for Geelong to Ballarat and Colac services. Makes more sense.

Horsham and Hamilton is good. Run SG into Geelong and have Colac to Ballarat passengers change at Geelong. Works.

Mildura also in the mix. Did I read this right ?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Also adding Wodonga has been left off the list of upgrades. Why ?
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Geelong Metro Colac to Bannockburn , Dual Gauge? Standard Gauge? or reguage to Broad Gauge?   Laughable...………………….
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Mr Guy actually told Faine yesterday morning he wanted a tunnel in the south east.

It’s getting wackier by the minute.

I do agree with woodford that $19b would upgrade virtually the entire passenger network to Class 1, but unfortunately that doesn’t even appear to be the intention here.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

This plan is likely to be well received by the community so his chances at November have gone up. Lifting speeds in the current regional network will win votes.

Running a Geelong metro is also a good idea and will win votes but why not extend to the Ballarat terminus for Geelong to Ballarat and Colac services. Makes more sense.

Horsham and Hamilton is good. Run SG into Geelong and have Colac to Ballarat passengers change at Geelong. Works.

Mildura also in the mix. Did I read this right ?
freightgate
On the LIberal party electorol chances..............
Hmmmm, one of the problems here is the number of people in rural areas who's lives can be made better by trains is quite low. Look at Bendigo, say 10 trains in the morning peak capable of holding over 2000 people, from a catchment area of over 120,000, its bearly 1.5%. For the vast majority of rural journeys, there is no public transport, look at the traffic on the Midland highway, the Violet Town Bendigo rd, Shepparton Cobram rd, etc, to name a few of many. Most of the passengers on the Albury train are either school age children or people on  a pension. Most people I know would not consider taking a train.

Second problem and probably much more serious is the plan as released, is in no way acheivable and almost everyone is absolutely dead sick of politicians NOT keeping promises. If the libs do get in they will almost certainly only last a single term.

While people are complacent, the political parties should NEVER make the mistake of thinking they are stupid and/or cannot remember the past.

woodford
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Hmmmm, one of the problems here is the number of people in rural areas who's lives can be made better by trains is quite low. Look at Bendigo, say 10 trains in the morning peak capable of holding over 2000 people, from a catchment area of over 120,000, its bearly 1.5%. For the vast majority of rural journeys, there is no public transport, look at the traffic on the Midland highway, the Violet Town Bendigo rd, Shepparton Cobram rd, etc, to name a few of many. Most of the passengers on the Albury train are either school age children or people on  a pension. Most people I know would not consider taking a train.

woodford
woodford
My 2c if I may.......

Vlocity 3 car set can carry 222 pax (plus wheelchair space), peak services are mostly 2 sets so around 450 and there are often people standing on peak Up and Down Bendigo services.

My experience traveling regularly counter peak on the Bendigo line is that more and more people are looking to the train to travel to Melbourne off peak for sporting and cultural events as traffic and parking is such a nightmare.

And one other thing, rural and regional voters (and I know you fit that category Woodford) see the railway as giving their community a connection to the big city, even if they don't use it often or at all they may vote for it solely on those grounds.

As for the rest of your post, I agree, the Coalition has a long way to go in gaining back the trust of Regional voters and I will believe these promises when I see the first sod turned.

BG
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Some images supplied by Liberal party

True Believers
What's all the negativity?
Scribbled drawing supplied, it all works on paper.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

What's all the negativity? Scribbled drawing supplied, it all works on paper.
michaelgm

But that’s the thing, I’m not even sure it does work on paper.

What problem is it solving? Why is faster the priority over more reliable? How will express trains benefit anyone?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Labor fires a shot back

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/matthew-guy-explains-his-unravelling-regional-rail-plan/

GUY: This is about 6 hours old give me a chance, Nicole
Mr Guy
The last line says enough....

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