The Long Suffering Shepparton Commuters get a set of Antiquated H set Former Suburban Carriages to travel to Shepparton

 

News article: The Long Suffering Shepparton Commuters get a set of Antiquated H set Former Suburban Carriages to travel to Shepparton

The Long Suffering Shepparton Commuters get a set of Antiquated H set Former Suburban Carriages to travel to Shepparton.

  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

@woodford A wonderful and informed post yet again. I agree with you on Scott Ramsey  who comes across as a Coalition hack. The point is that v/line should have to rely on 60 year old Carriages to maintain a service. You can understand the anger when loads of money are thrown at the Geelong and Ballarat corridors.

Michael

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  M636C Minister for Railways

There is a possible solution:

Buy diesel HST sets from the UK.

These are forty years old but many are being upgraded for further use in the UK.

If fitted with new doors, the passenger cars should meet most requirements.
The cars are a bit smaller in height and width than H or N cars but they are supposed to ride very well.
I've often used them on trips from Paddington to Exeter.

You could haul the cars with existing locomotives or get the matching power cars.
If you bought four sets for the North East (they would come as standard gauge), you could reallocate the N sets to broad gauge.

Since they look roughly like XPT sets, they would probably be seen as newer and an improvement.

Another set might be used to run to Horsham and Dimboola to supplement the Overland.

They are all capable of 200km/h if the track would allow it...

Peter
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
@TheVinelander That is just not good enough. Wow, if a Minister said that to me a swift rebuke would be heading their way. Billions of Dollars being spent on the Geelong and Ballarat corridors and they can't even ensure that Shepparton passengers have access to a decent train set. I usually disagree with Mr Ramsey but he is spot on with this.

Michael
mejhammers1

V/Line cannot help being loved to death by the increasing numbers of pax it has to carry and sometimes whole car sets are out of action for a number of maintenance reasons.

As the first long distance V'Locity will probably enter service...oh, in about three or four weeks, with the promise of several more sets to be ordered, this storm in a teacup regards H sets to Shepp will evaporate very quickly indeed.

PS... I believe there's an election in around 5 weeks so join the dots.. Wink

Mike.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

@TheVinelander That is just not good enough. Wow, if a Minister said that to me a swift rebuke would be heading their way. Billions of Dollars being spent on the Geelong and Ballarat corridors and they can't even ensure that Shepparton passengers have access to a decent train set. I usually disagree with Mr Ramsey but he is spot on with this.

Michael

V/Line cannot help being loved to death by the increasing numbers of pax it has to carry and sometimes whole car sets are out of action for a number of maintenance reasons.

As the first long distance V'Locity will probably enter service...oh, in about three or four weeks, with the promise of several more sets to be ordered, this storm in a teacup regards H sets to Shepp will evaporate very quickly indeed.

PS... I believe there's an election in around 5 weeks so join the dots.. Wink

Mike.
The Vinelander
Has it been confirmed that VL77 will be 4 carriages and have a buffet car?
  n459L1150 Train Controller

Location: at sunbury on a V/line service into melbourne, waiting for thousands of impatient people to get on
@TheVinelander That is just not good enough. Wow, if a Minister said that to me a swift rebuke would be heading their way. Billions of Dollars being spent on the Geelong and Ballarat corridors and they can't even ensure that Shepparton passengers have access to a decent train set. I usually disagree with Mr Ramsey but he is spot on with this.

Michael

V/Line cannot help being loved to death by the increasing numbers of pax it has to carry and sometimes whole car sets are out of action for a number of maintenance reasons.

As the first long distance V'Locity will probably enter service...oh, in about three or four weeks, with the promise of several more sets to be ordered, this storm in a teacup regards H sets to Shepp will evaporate very quickly indeed.

PS... I believe there's an election in around 5 weeks so join the dots.. Wink

Mike.
Has it been confirmed that VL77 will be 4 carriages and have a buffet car?
John.Z
doubtful, that would mean providing more amenities, they would also need to put in some sort of baggage area and guards compartment. it would have to be 4 or maybe 5 cars long.

short answer would be NO.

I like the idea of buying DMU's from the UK either second-hand or new, or even just bodyshells with engines installed so all bombardier (or whoever) can build the interior however they want
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

There is a possible solution:

Buy diesel HST sets from the UK.

These are forty years old but many are being upgraded for further use in the UK.

If fitted with new doors, the passenger cars should meet most requirements.
The cars are a bit smaller in height and width than H or N cars but they are supposed to ride very well.
I've often used them on trips from Paddington to Exeter.

You could haul the cars with existing locomotives or get the matching power cars.
If you bought four sets for the North East (they would come as standard gauge), you could reallocate the N sets to broad gauge.

Since they look roughly like XPT sets, they would probably be seen as newer and an improvement.

Another set might be used to run to Horsham and Dimboola to supplement the Overland.

They are all capable of 200km/h if the track would allow it...

Peter
M636C
That idea is up there with a Taxi cab company buying a fleet of AU Falcons with 800000+ km on the clock.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
There is a possible solution:

Buy diesel HST sets from the UK.

These are forty years old but many are being upgraded for further use in the UK.

If fitted with new doors, the passenger cars should meet most requirements.
The cars are a bit smaller in height and width than H or N cars but they are supposed to ride very well.
I've often used them on trips from Paddington to Exeter.

You could haul the cars with existing locomotives or get the matching power cars.
If you bought four sets for the North East (they would come as standard gauge), you could reallocate the N sets to broad gauge.

Since they look roughly like XPT sets, they would probably be seen as newer and an improvement.

Another set might be used to run to Horsham and Dimboola to supplement the Overland.

They are all capable of 200km/h if the track would allow it...

Peter
That idea is up there with a Taxi cab company buying a fleet of AU Falcons with 800000+ km on the clock.
Carnot
When/what have we purchased from the Poms since the Rs, Js and Ns that has been any good (including a heap of 'whatevers' on 457 visas)?

Given that the basic structural design of the Vlocitys is now well established, I am amazed that we are unable to modify their interiors to suit whatever layout we need in a very short time, whether it be short distance 'commuter' (Geelong) or longer distance (Warrnambool, Shepparton etc). It should be little more than rearranging the deck chairs with which we, in Victoria, have a great deal of experience.

GSR refurbished the BRJ economy twinettes, PN, SCT, GWR etc converted many passenger cars to relay vans and the airlines regularly reconfigure their plane interiors to provide varied layouts.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Long-distance VLs are not yet in production; I don’t know where the rumour has emerged that they are.

The next VL builds will, among other things, remove some luggage space and toilets to include more seats, and the existing fleet (or at least a portion of it) will be refurbished along similar lines.  

If a long-haul VL with luggage space and buffet car was in the works, we would have heard about it in March with a series of frantic government press releases when the Coalition announced their policy on the matter. We did not. It would have been running to Bairnsdale by August. It was not.

As I’ve said before I think adding intermediate buffet cars is a great option, and provides operational flexibility as well as the possibility of upgrading an end car to first class with in-seat power, rotating seats, etc. in future if patronage warrants it. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be any suggestion the current government is committed to going down this path.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All

1 / the use of 40 year old xBR HST sets is not a good idea for a number of reasons , firstly they are 40 years old ,secondly their air con sets are not optimized for Australia'a significantly higher ambient temperatures , thirdly , that is especially applicable to the HST power units ( which i why the NSW XPT sets have a significantly greater cooling capacity than the BR HSTs , and fourthly , the cost of importing second hand sets with around 20 years additional life that require extensive local rebuilding to cope with Australia's temperature range would make it totally uneconomic.

2 / Adding non motor trailers to existing VLocity sets ( VLocity are all powered motor cars ) would increase capacity by 25% per existing 3 car set , would allow for a combination of long haul , short haul ,and buffet trailer versions , and the degraded traction performance due to a non motor trailer is actually quite marginal , which is why a non powered trailer buffet is currently being seriously considered.

3 / Four Car sets would allow for some services to be covered by a Four Car in lieu of a Six Car ( 3 x 2 ) Set that is currently provided , which in turn would allow for a greater maintenance window.

4 / In most cases an Eight Car ( 4 x 2 ) set would meet most peak demand without the need to go up to Nine Car Sets ( 3 x 3 ) which is actually uneconomic as fuel burn exceeds that of a locomotive hauled formation of the equivalent capacity.

5 / The demand for rail service in Victoria has quickly outpaced the expectations of both the Government and V/Line , and the additional non motor trailer is an economic alternative choice which enhances current provision , and increases capacity without purchasing additional 3 car VLocity sets , and enhances the flexibility of existing train sets , just as the previous conversion of 2 car sets to 3 car sets did.

Regards, Radioman.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Why is there a shortage of N Sets when 2/3 of them on the Bairnsdale line have permanently been replaced with V-locities recently?
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

There is a possible solution:

Buy diesel HST sets from the UK.

These are forty years old but many are being upgraded for further use in the UK.

If fitted with new doors, the passenger cars should meet most requirements.
The cars are a bit smaller in height and width than H or N cars but they are supposed to ride very well.
I've often used them on trips from Paddington to Exeter.

You could haul the cars with existing locomotives or get the matching power cars.
If you bought four sets for the North East (they would come as standard gauge), you could reallocate the N sets to broad gauge.

Since they look roughly like XPT sets, they would probably be seen as newer and an improvement.

Another set might be used to run to Horsham and Dimboola to supplement the Overland.

They are all capable of 200km/h if the track would allow it...

Peter
M636C
I am afraid I am going to go full British on you and say what a completely bonkers idea.

Much of Victoria's rail network is like a Heritage Railway as it is without importing 40 year old crap from the UK. Moreover, they are very expensive to run.

Britain is getting rid of them from Primary routes for good reason, the railway has moved on. You might as well scour for old carriages around Australia and do C6 overhauls, that would make just as much sense as what you are proposing.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

@TheVinelander That is just not good enough. Wow, if a Minister said that to me a swift rebuke would be heading their way. Billions of Dollars being spent on the Geelong and Ballarat corridors and they can't even ensure that Shepparton passengers have access to a decent train set. I usually disagree with Mr Ramsey but he is spot on with this.

Michael

V/Line cannot help being loved to death by the increasing numbers of pax it has to carry and sometimes whole car sets are out of action for a number of maintenance reasons.

As the first long distance V'Locity will probably enter service...oh, in about three or four weeks, with the promise of several more sets to be ordered, this storm in a teacup regards H sets to Shepp will evaporate very quickly indeed.

PS... I believe there's an election in around 5 weeks so join the dots.. Wink

Mike.
The Vinelander
That is all very well for you to say. You reside on a corridor that is having the proverbial kitchen sink as cash thrown at it. The North East corridor relatively speaking is not. You will get extra vlocities, the NE will get refreshed "classic carriages".

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
@TheVinelander That is just not good enough. Wow, if a Minister said that to me a swift rebuke would be heading their way. Billions of Dollars being spent on the Geelong and Ballarat corridors and they can't even ensure that Shepparton passengers have access to a decent train set. I usually disagree with Mr Ramsey but he is spot on with this.

Michael

V/Line cannot help being loved to death by the increasing numbers of pax it has to carry and sometimes whole car sets are out of action for a number of maintenance reasons.

As the first long distance V'Locity will probably enter service...oh, in about three or four weeks, with the promise of several more sets to be ordered, this storm in a teacup regards H sets to Shepp will evaporate very quickly indeed.

PS... I believe there's an election in around 5 weeks so join the dots.. Wink

Mike.
That is all very well for you to say. You reside on a corridor that is having the proverbial kitchen sink as cash thrown at it. The North East corridor relatively speaking is not. You will get extra vlocities, the NE will get refreshed "classic carriages".

Michael
mejhammers1

They really aren't that 'classic'...they were built in the early 80's...not so long ago. I'll be travelling in them myself on Cup weekend when I head up to Wang with my bike to ride the rail trail.

Mike.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
There sure is a lot of rubbish in this thread. Par for the course of a thread based on any drivel from the RRA I suppose.

V/Line do not order or build new rollingstock, the state government do that and no government are going to build new carriages based on a 35 year old design. Equally so, no government is going to buy obsolete rollingstock from Britain.

H sets running to Shepparton is not normal, but it is not unheard of. If V/Line were left with no other options other than to run the train with a H set or cancel the train all together, than the H set was still the best option available.

The only valid question I see here is where are the N sets? I can only guess that with their advancing age, they are spending more time receiving maintenance than they used to.
  Dave C Chief Train Controller

Location: Maitland
I'm not even going to comment on the news article. If its a one off because of operational issues build a bridge and get over it. Any Class ride is better than a first class walk.

From what I can see Rail Revival Alliance produce a lot of hot air but nothing that could be even remotely considered meaningful.

At least it gives me a laugh.

However back in the 80's to Lunchtime Shepparton train was a H set hauled by a P class loco for several years so it has been done before. H sets regularly did longer distances in times past.

PS Woodford yet again your posts are well thought out and worth reading.
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

...........................................

4 / In most cases an Eight Car ( 4 x 2 ) set would meet most peak demand without the need to go up to Nine Car Sets ( 3 x 3 ) which is actually uneconomic as fuel burn exceeds that of a locomotive hauled formation of the equivalent capacity.

................................................................................
Radioman
Would require 2 x buffets. Needs to be a walk-through configuration. Extra disabled toilets and their location needs consideration.
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Latest weekly notice shows new train, VL77. The train is shown as 3 cars, same length, weight and tractive power as every other one in use. that seems to stop that thought!

Personally I think any carriage loco-hauled is better to ride in than a railcar (no noisy engines beneath). And any railcar (apart from a Walker) is preferable to a bus...sorry, coach.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Personally I think any carriage loco-hauled is better to ride in than a railcar (no noisy engines beneath). And any railcar (apart from a Walker) is preferable to a bus...sorry, coach.
hbedriver
From my experience travelling on the Down Swan Hill for the last month the ride at the front of the train (first car that is) is appalling. Pretty much every service is rough as guts with loud banging and crashing coming from the draft package and reverberating through the carriage. I don't need one of those circulation boosters that you see advertised on the box, I am sitting in a giant one right now!

A driver told me that many of the draft packages on the N classes are like this due to poor or no maintenance on them.

It is not a great advertisement for V/Line, bring on the long distance V/locity and put these things out to pasture I say.

BG
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Latest weekly notice shows new train, VL77. The train is shown as 3 cars, same length, weight and tractive power as every other one in use. that seems to stop that thought!

Personally I think any carriage loco-hauled is better to ride in than a railcar (no noisy engines beneath). And any railcar (apart from a Walker) is preferable to a bus...sorry, coach.
hbedriver
I have a number of times swapped straight from a 2nd class N car to a VLocity (Note 1) and I found the difference is staggering. The VLocity's ride being WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better and no crashing and banging coming from the coupling gear or the bogies. Note: Biased alert, I do NOT like the 2nd class N Set cars, they are one of TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEE most uncomfortable vehicles I have ever riden in.


Note 1: At Seymour from the morning Melbourne bound Albury train to the local Seymour service, it leaving 9 minutes after the Albury train gets in. Seating being more comfortable in the VLocity and it nearly ALWAYS beats the ALbury train into Southern Cross, inspite of leaving 9 minutes latter.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The big problem VLine has with this is that the almost never say the reason for the change of rolling stock. All they have to do is announce something like "We have no N set availible due to maintenence issues so a H set is being used instead", this would ease a lot of peoples minds. Sadly Technical management almost NEVER give any reasons for a failure. This is possibly due to the information release is done by a press officer, ie a journalist, and these people never know anything technical.

Note: I have worked in a control room overlooking a technical network and I have ALWAYS told management the reason (in simple terms) for any failures, this information has NEVER to my knowledge reached the public. I have found this VERY frustrating to say the least.

woodford
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The big problem VLine has with this is that the almost never say the reason for the change of rolling stock. All they have to do is announce something like "We have no N set availible due to maintenence issues so a H set is being used instead", this would ease a lot of peoples minds. Sadly Technical management almost NEVER give any reasons for a failure. This is possibly due to the information release is done by a press officer, ie a journalist, and these people never know anything technical.
woodford
The public is dealt with via the Mushroom System . . . keep 'em in the dark, and feed 'em BS.
  richter170 Locomotive Driver

I think it's a piss take. I for one aren't going to be standing at North Melbourne at 4.35am as no train to Shep will rock up at that hour of the morning.

H sets in 6 cars have more seats than a 5 car N set so wrong there on capacity.

Shep is at 181km - most trains with refresh

Traralgon is 158km - interurban no food

If you can't survive 181km without a buffet 23 km longer than Traralgon well there is a problem.

Perhaps fruit and water could be handed out on a H set while on route.

They ride just as well as a N set so wrong there.

VL 7677,78,79, have the nickname of the Geelong units as that will be their primary line.
They have the smaller toilet removed, different seating pattern and an extra 16 seats placed in.

All seats with tray tables on the new vcity cars but with less thick cushions.

Wouldn't waste time reading any other junk from Regional Rail Alliance.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Yes, the last time there was a shortage of N sets on the Shep line - some four or five months ago - H sets were making it up here daily. On the morning service, on the midday service.

Consider.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

It will be interesting to see how these new velocities go with only one toilet.
The current practice where only one toilet is working of a three car set is that it must be pumped out each time it is at Southern Cross station.
Considering that trains can't be pumped out on platform 15 or 16, this causes delays and cancellations now.
What will become the procedure when these new single toilet units enter service?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Considering that trains can't be pumped out on platform 15 or 16, this causes delays and cancellations now.
DalyWaters

Every time I think I’ve heard it all...

Of course, I should have realised there’s no old subway to 15/16, but I dare say that’s a screwup I’ve never even thought of before.

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