Clyde extension should not wait 10-15 years to get built

 
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Great news!

I wonder what they refer to when it says 'improvements around Caulfield'?
Good question. Good money has to be on a major post-Metro Tunnel junction rationalisation.
potatoinmymouth
What I would like to see:

Dandenong Station rebuilt with Cranbourne line outside track pair, Pakenahm track inside track pair. Don't know how CD9 would work with this.

Four tracks Dandenong to Caulfield.

Six tracks Caulfield to South Yarra (shave the island MATH platforms as far in as structually possible to allow space for the six tracks). Cranbourne trains take the SAS service, Frankston and Pakenham get express with no platforms. Last chance interchange at Caulfield. MATH stations need to change at South yarra for 58 tram or flinders for ANZAC station

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  ianb26 Station Master

Great news!

I wonder what they refer to when it says 'improvements around Caulfield'?
Good question. Good money has to be on a major post-Metro Tunnel junction rationalisation.
What I would like to see:

Dandenong Station rebuilt with Cranbourne line outside track pair, Pakenahm track inside track pair. Don't know how CD9 would work with this.

Four tracks Dandenong to Caulfield.

Six tracks Caulfield to South Yarra (shave the island MATH platforms as far in as structually possible to allow space for the six tracks). Cranbourne trains take the SAS service, Frankston and Pakenham get express with no platforms. Last chance interchange at Caulfield. MATH stations need to change at South yarra for 58 tram or flinders for ANZAC station

John.Z
Six Tracks Caulfield to Sth Yarra is IMPOSSIBLE. I travelled there yesterday, and there are 10 overhead bridges with piers between tracks, and at least 3 pedestrian bridges. Explain how you could add the extra 2 tracks. Even with "shaving" back the platforms it could not be done.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

@ianb26

Nothing is impossible. Look at footscray. four track bridges went to 6 track bridges by being rebuilt. Simples.
  ianb26 Station Master

@ianb26

Nothing is impossible. Look at footscray. four track bridges went to 6 track bridges by being rebuilt. Simples.
John.Z
10 road bridges to be rebuilt for 6 tracks? Bit pie in the sky. It would mean shutting down the network between Sth Yarra and Caulfield for goodness knows how long, not to mention the major roads involved. CHAOS PERSONIFIED. In reality I don't think there is room anyway in the corridor to add 2 more tracks. It's going to be bad enough when they build the portals for Metro Tunnel. By the civil drawings for Metro Tunnel it looks like the portals will be off to the left city bound near Sth Yarra station. There's not much room there now. I can see the Frankston tracks being used for Cranbourne / Pakenham trains to Caulfield while the portals are being constructed. It will be a nightmare.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

@ianb26

Nothing is impossible. Look at footscray. four track bridges went to 6 track bridges by being rebuilt. Simples.
10 road bridges to be rebuilt for 6 tracks? Bit pie in the sky. It would mean shutting down the network between Sth Yarra and Caulfield for goodness knows how long, not to mention the major roads involved. CHAOS PERSONIFIED. In reality I don't think there is room anyway in the corridor to add 2 more tracks. It's going to be bad enough when they build the portals for Metro Tunnel. By the civil drawings for Metro Tunnel it looks like the portals will be off to the left city bound near Sth Yarra station. There's not much room there now. I can see the Frankston tracks being used for Cranbourne / Pakenham trains to Caulfield while the portals are being constructed. It will be a nightmare.
ianb26
Where there is a will, there is a way. Sydney has gradually expanded its western trunk from 2 lines to 6 through tight spaces, no reason this couldn't be any different.
  billjohnston Station Master

Anyone know what is holding up the commissioning of the Cranbourne line duplication installed so far.

Thanks

BillJohnston
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
What's with all the whining about this when there's barely anything in Clyde?

How is a bus down Linsell Bvd, and another down Berwick/Cbourne Rd, not sufficient?

Perhaps once a sod actually turns on the Clyde town centre, a station there and Casey Fields could be justified, but until then it's hardly a big deal.  Most of Melbourne has to put up with a bus connection to their local, why should this area be any different?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Because there’s a rail reservation in place and we need to learn from mistakes of the past by building infrastructure that will prevent disastrous traffic and poor quality of life, before it occurs.

The best practice in transport planning is to plan transport that will shape the city, not the other way around.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
What's with all the whining about this when there's barely anything in Clyde?

How is a bus down Linsell Bvd, and another down Berwick/Cbourne Rd, not sufficient?

Perhaps once a sod actually turns on the Clyde town centre, a station there and Casey Fields could be justified, but until then it's hardly a big deal.  Most of Melbourne has to put up with a bus connection to their local, why should this area be any different?
ZH836301
The houses exist already, it is in the top 3 fastest growing regions in Australia.

Google maps is outdated for the region, so a lot of those fields are now houses.
  stooge spark Train Controller

What's with all the whining about this when there's barely anything in Clyde?
Barely anything? You living in 2006 or something?  Plenty of houses right now and plenty more showing up in the coming years. Clyde isn't a rural locality anymore.


How is a bus down Linsell Bvd, and another down Berwick/Cbourne Rd, not sufficient?
Those theoretical bus services may be sufficent for the population now, but its not going to be when its 10 years from now and there are 30000 people all living in Clyde and associated estates.

Perhaps once a sod actually turns on the Clyde town Centre, a station there and Casey Fields could be justified, but until then it's hardly a big deal.  
Why are we waiting for a town centre to be built before any other progress is done?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Any train to Clyde would run basically empty - there is no point building it until construction of the town centre commences.

Cranbourne East is dead, the only two station sites are:

*Casey Fields - cnr Casey Fields Bvd/Berwick C'bourne Rd
*Clyde - cnr Twyford Rd/Ballarto Rd

Clyde North may be filling up, but Clyde is still fairly empty.  There is no point doing half of it then coming back, so it is best waiting for Clyde to pick up then doing the whole thing in one go.  Cranbourne East is a horrid place for a station, connections from arterials are basically non-existent, so it may as well be scrapped.  Casey Fields gives good connections both north-south and east-west, and is an appropriate site for a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

So once Clyde Town Centre begins would be the best time to begin construction.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The Labor party today announced if they are re-elected they will duplicate the line from Dandenong to Cranbourne (removing all level crossings in the process).

There plan for this line seems pretty straight forward to me:
1st term: Grade separate all crossings between Melbourne and Dandenong
2nd term: Duplicate Dandenong to Cranbourne, grade separate all remaining level crossings in the process.
3rd term: extend from Cranbourne to Clyde (with all level crossings grade seperated)

This last part for the 3rd term is as yet un-announced, as it is still 4 years away. If they follow this timeframe, the Cranbourne line will be fully grade separated and duplicated by 2022, and the extension to Clyde could be open by as early as 2025, in time for the opening of the Metro tunnel.

This to me makes more sense than the Libs hair-brained-scheme to extend from Cranbourne to Clyde before duplicating the existing line from Dandenong.

Just, as a side. If this is done, and with Cranbourne/Clyde trains through routing to Sunbury via the Metro Tunnel, there will only be 3 level crossings on the entire trip from Clyde to Sunbury: Calder Park Drive, Old Calder Highway (Diggers Rest) and Watson's Rd. That is 3 crossings on a line that spans about 88km. Not a bad effort.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Any train to Clyde would run basically empty - there is no point building it until construction of the town centre commences.

Cranbourne East is dead, the only two station sites are:

*Casey Fields - cnr Casey Fields Bvd/Berwick C'bourne Rd
*Clyde - cnr Twyford Rd/Ballarto Rd

Clyde North may be filling up, but Clyde is still fairly empty.  There is no point doing half of it then coming back, so it is best waiting for Clyde to pick up then doing the whole thing in one go.  Cranbourne East is a horrid place for a station, connections from arterials are basically non-existent, so it may as well be scrapped.  Casey Fields gives good connections both north-south and east-west, and is an appropriate site for a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

So once Clyde Town Centre begins would be the best time to begin construction.
ZH836301
What is your fixation on arterial connections and Town Centre?

Bus links might still be so so (20 minute service east-west), but that does not preclude improvements north-south.
Anyhow, most of the new estates are with 10 minute walk of any station you might imagine.

The whole corridor from Cranbourne to Clyde is filling up fast with people.
Remenber people?, they are the ones that get on to trains.

Those people are desperate for a decent PT service.
It's sad enough that the local shopping hasn't caught up, you want them to wait even longer until Wollies, Coles and Aldi all set up shop. On your reasoning nothing less would be enough.

Cranbourne East may be horrid to you, but it is home to very many who deserve just as much support as any other.
They have already paid enough tax (stamp duty) to warrant it.

cheers
John
  Rossco T Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Any train to Clyde would run basically empty - there is no point building it until construction of the town centre commences.

Cranbourne East is dead, the only two station sites are:

*Casey Fields - cnr Casey Fields Bvd/Berwick C'bourne Rd
*Clyde - cnr Twyford Rd/Ballarto Rd

Clyde North may be filling up, but Clyde is still fairly empty.  There is no point doing half of it then coming back, so it is best waiting for Clyde to pick up then doing the whole thing in one go.  Cranbourne East is a horrid place for a station, connections from arterials are basically non-existent, so it may as well be scrapped.  Casey Fields gives good connections both north-south and east-west, and is an appropriate site for a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

So once Clyde Town Centre begins would be the best time to begin construction.
ZH836301

If you go into Google Earth and look at the latest image of Mernda Station on the sliding bar (image date of 13 September), it shows that approximately 90% of the 1,007 parking spaces are full, with the only empty ones being located at the far northern end.

Pretty much none of the Mernda Town Centre has been constructed at this stage apart from the pub which has always been there.  So I don't think you need to wait for the town centre to be complete before the train service is well used.

Interestingly if you look further down the line, Hawkstowe carpark is completely full, whereas Middle Gorge is more than half empty.  I suspect this is because the Middle Gorge carpark is so hard to get to from Plenty Road.  I had always thought it would have been sensible to construct a carpark on the eastern side of the line at Middle Gorge.

The other thing that is interesting is that there are now a large number of unused parking spaces at South Morang.  Very different from before the Mernda extension opened.

Ross
  ianb26 Station Master

Any train to Clyde would run basically empty - there is no point building it until construction of the town centre commences.

Cranbourne East is dead, the only two station sites are:

*Casey Fields - cnr Casey Fields Bvd/Berwick C'bourne Rd
*Clyde - cnr Twyford Rd/Ballarto Rd

Clyde North may be filling up, but Clyde is still fairly empty.  There is no point doing half of it then coming back, so it is best waiting for Clyde to pick up then doing the whole thing in one go.  Cranbourne East is a horrid place for a station, connections from arterials are basically non-existent, so it may as well be scrapped.  Casey Fields gives good connections both north-south and east-west, and is an appropriate site for a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

So once Clyde Town Centre begins would be the best time to begin construction.
What is your fixation on arterial connections and Town Centre?

Bus links might still be so so (20 minute service east-west), but that does not preclude improvements north-south.
Anyhow, most of the new estates are with 10 minute walk of any station you might imagine.

The whole corridor from Cranbourne to Clyde is filling up fast with people.
Remenber people?, they are the ones that get on to trains.

Those people are desperate for a decent PT service.
It's sad enough that the local shopping hasn't caught up, you want them to wait even longer until Wollies, Coles and Aldi all set up shop. On your reasoning nothing less would be enough.

Cranbourne East may be horrid to you, but it is home to very many who deserve just as much support as any other.
They have already paid enough tax (stamp duty) to warrant it.

cheers
John
justarider
John, you are spot on with that last paragraph. I live about 3 -5 minutes walk from where the Cranbourne East station was earmarked for. If whichever government gets in, I hope they use the site. It has been reported that Dictator Dan has set aside $3m for another site! I have walked around the estate and there doesn't appear to be anywhere better.

As for @ZH836301's comment that connections from arterials are non-existant, that is it ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. Broadoak Drive goes all the way from Berwick/Cranbourne Road to Linsell Bvd. The earmarked station site is directly behind Casey Race pool. So is a maximum of 2 minutes or less from Berwick/Cranbourne Road. I suggest @ZH836301 get a copy of any edition of Melways from edition 10 onwards and check it out.

We want and need our station at Cranbourne East. I have been in the estate since December 2006. The stations after Cranbourne should be Cranbourne East, future site for Casey Fields and then to Clyde.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
There is no justification for any more than a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

Casey Fields is the more central location, has more space for parking, and better access north-south and east-west.

Cranbourne East may be horrid to you, but it is home to very many who deserve just as much support as any other.
They have already paid enough tax (stamp duty) to warrant it.
justarider
So what special tax did they pay that entitles to them to a station above the umpteen places a similar distance which will never have rail?


Pretty much none of the Mernda Town Centre has been constructed at this stage apart from the pub which has always been there.  So I don't think you need to wait for the town centre to be complete before the train service is well used.
Rosscoe

There is significant development around Mernda station - this is not the case for Clyde.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Great news!

I wonder what they refer to when it says 'improvements around Caulfield'?
steve195
I suspect the improvements around Caulfield refer to what we basically already know; the removal of the down end junction. When the did the wires at the start of 2018 it was from Caulfield to Malvern including the up end junction which will remain. The down end junction will be removed so that it essentially becomes two seperate corridors - one for HCMT's and the Dandenong Line and the other for the Frankston services. Much of the track around Caulfield needs to be lifted and replaced anyway (there's been a set of unconstructed points resting at Caulfield for the past 5 years - all they do is shift it around for other works but they never install it). I was speaking to a train driver about the upcoming works a month or so ago. He said that Metro doesn't want signalling for the HCMT's mixing with other signalling. Although one benefit of upgrading the corridor from Caulfield to the City is that wires and signals for the Frankston tracks are being upgraded as well - that's becoming more and more evident especially after the last weekend occupation. Check out the new overhead stanchions just up from the Glenferrie Rd bridge - they are massive! - it's becoming evident that a new substation is to be installed in the old Malvern sidings site.

Sorry for straying slightly off topic.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
There is no justification for any more than a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

Casey Fields is the more central location, has more space for parking, and better access north-south and east-west.

Cranbourne East may be horrid to you, but it is home to very many who deserve just as much support as any other.
They have already paid enough tax (stamp duty) to warrant it.
So what special tax did they pay that entitles to them to a station above the umpteen places a similar distance which will never have rail?


Pretty much none of the Mernda Town Centre has been constructed at this stage apart from the pub which has always been there.  So I don't think you need to wait for the town centre to be complete before the train service is well used.

There is significant development around Mernda station - this is not the case for Clyde.
ZH836301
@ZH try to chill out, you might learn something other than your own opinions.

Just read the post from @ianb26, somebody that actually lives in Cranbourne East.
There is a huge number of residents within close proximity to justify 2 stations.

Cranbourne residents didn't pay a special tax, just a huge lump of Stamp Duty. Unlike long term residents in the inner/middle suburbs. Like all taxpayers, they are entitled to some service for that money.

"umpteen places a similar distance which will never have rail" - and where would these be ?
In accordance with your posts over the last week, there will not be any new rail anywhere.

As for similar distance - Frankston, Somerville, Officer, Pakenham, Belgrave, Lilydale, Hurstbridge, Mernda, Donnybrook, Wallan, Sunbury, Melton, Tarneit, Werribee, Little River.
When I looked this morning they still have trains.
Clyde alone does not, because it got pulled out - time has proved that to be a mistake.

And again what is your fixation about development and shopping centres.
Passengers do not go to a shopping centre to catch a train/bus. They go to a station. Coincidence is nice but not mandatory.

end of rant
cheers
John
  ianb26 Station Master

There is no justification for any more than a single station between Clyde and Cranbourne.

Casey Fields is the more central location, has more space for parking, and better access north-south and east-west.

Cranbourne East may be horrid to you, but it is home to very many who deserve just as much support as any other.
They have already paid enough tax (stamp duty) to warrant it.
So what special tax did they pay that entitles to them to a station above the umpteen places a similar distance which will never have rail?


Pretty much none of the Mernda Town Centre has been constructed at this stage apart from the pub which has always been there.  So I don't think you need to wait for the town centre to be complete before the train service is well used.

There is significant development around Mernda station - this is not the case for Clyde.
@ZH try to chill out, you might learn something other than your own opinions.

Just read the post from @ianb26, somebody that actually lives in Cranbourne East.
There is a huge number of residents within close proximity to justify 2 stations.

Cranbourne residents didn't pay a special tax, just a huge lump of Stamp Duty. Unlike long term residents in the inner/middle suburbs. Like all taxpayers, they are entitled to some service for that money.

"umpteen places a similar distance which will never have rail" - and where would these be ?
In accordance with your posts over the last week, there will not be any new rail anywhere.

As for similar distance - Frankston, Somerville, Officer, Pakenham, Belgrave, Lilydale, Hurstbridge, Mernda, Donnybrook, Wallan, Sunbury, Melton, Tarneit, Werribee, Little River.
When I looked this morning they still have trains.
Clyde alone does not, because it got pulled out - time has proved that to be a mistake.

And again what is your fixation about development and shopping centres.
Passengers do not go to a shopping centre to catch a train/bus. They go to a station. Coincidence is nice but not mandatory.

end of rant
cheers
John
justarider
Congratulations, John. Very well put. As for @ZH836301 I think he is from the 19th century, his comments don't fit in with 21st century thinking. Obviously he doesn't live in the outer areas of Melbourne, probably a loopy greeny (yes I deliberately lower cased that) from inner Melbourne.

As you said John, end of rant.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

The sooner we electrify (and extend) to outer parts of Melbourne, the better. It doesn't really matter if the population is not there yet, because the railway line will act as a magnet to propel the developers to hurry up and build the housing. It's better to have the infrastructure ready to go rather than wait until the current roads break to begin. This project will take a fair bit of time to construct, time enough for even more people to move into the area. I say that there should be extensions to Melton/Bacchus Marsh, Wyndham Vale, Clyde and Wallan all in time for the opening of the Metro tunnel.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
The sooner we electrify (and extend) to outer parts of Melbourne, the better. It doesn't really matter if the population is not there yet, because the railway line will act as a magnet to propel the developers to hurry up and build the housing. It's better to have the infrastructure ready to go rather than wait until the current roads break to begin. This project will take a fair bit of time to construct, time enough for even more people to move into the area. I say that there should be extensions to Melton/Bacchus Marsh, Wyndham Vale, Clyde and Wallan all in time for the opening of the Metro tunnel.
reubstar6
And to Mildura as well just for the meme...
  stooge spark Train Controller

"Any train to Clyde would run basically empty"Even in Peak times?

"Clyde North may be filling up, but Clyde is still fairly empty"
Clyde is filling up right now as we speak, one only has to go to google maps (which I assume it's satellite was last updated in January of this year) to see that there are new estates being built in Clyde, Including one just to the west of the station that looks half done.

"Cranbourne East is a horrid place for a station, connections from arterials are basically non-existent"
What year are you from? There's Broad Oak Drive to the east of the Proposed site, that connects nicely to Linsell and Berwick Cranbourne roads.

"Casey Fields is the more central location, has more space for parking, and better access north-south and east-west."
The Cranbourne east location also allows space for parking, and is very close to some patronage generators such as Cranbourne East Secondary College and Casey Stadium.

"So what special tax did they pay that entitles to them to a station above the umpteen places a similar distance which will never have rail?"
Places such as what? Arthurs Creek? Darraweit Guim?

"There is significant development around Mernda station - this is not the case for Clyde."
Guess what, There is significant going on in Clyde. I assume the only thing you're looking at is the small township right next to the station? Because if we were going by that logic there is no reason for Mernda to have rail.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I don't know why your all getting your knickers in a knot over this.

Its pretty clear, if the Coalition win the election, they will extend to Clyde within the next 4 years (so long as you can trust them to follow through on the promise). If Labor win, they will duplicate the Cranbourne line, and then extend the line out to Clyde after that (so long as you can trust them to follow through on the promise).

So either it happens in the next 4 years, or it happens in the next 8 years, either way, it looks like it will definitely be happening soon enough.

I just don't see why its worth arguing about.
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
My biggest problem with an extension to Clyde is the simple fact that the Cranbourne line (even once works are finished) is unlikely to be able to handle the extra passengers.

In peak hour the train is standing room only by the time it gets to Dandenong.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
My biggest problem with an extension to Clyde is the simple fact that the Cranbourne line (even once works are finished) is unlikely to be able to handle the extra passengers.

In peak hour the train is standing room only by the time it gets to Dandenong.
Braddo
A Melbourne train only 15 minute intervals, no wonder the crush.

Double line delivers a new time table - think 6-10 minute intervals for trains all the way. Not just shuttles.
About the time HCMT and new signaling rolls in.

A new ball game for the Clyde pax to play in - but don't many of those currently get on at Cranny anyhow?

cheers
John

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