2018 State Election / Transport

 
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Thanks for bringing this up. The PTUA as a whole have typically been very rail-skeptical over the last 20 years for reasons which I can only guess at. The late Paul Mees' prominent membership probably played a big role; he was a noted advocate of the "squeeze the existing infrastructure and reinvest the savings into buses and trams" approach, and had the academic platform to justify and promote his views.
potatoinmymouth
Interesting that you brought Paul Mees into the discussion.
I too was perplexed on the PTUA stance until my missus pointed out that he came from a long family line of bus owners. "lovely family". Even academics have their prejudices.

cheers
John

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  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

How is that government going to achieve the goal running a Geelong service in 35 minutes to Melbourne without going express  and not stopping at the following locations North Geelong, Corio, North Shore and Lara railway stations?  
Mr Andrews goes on about the capacity off that Geelong train line services, facts that he fails to mention at the the current capacity off the trains the running these services are in the range between of 200 to 450 seats per train.
The days of running small capacity trains should be over and PTV should be looking at running train services at least a capacity of 800 seats per train service.
This may include the following:
- electrification of the Geelong train line
-  buying new electric train set
melbtrip
Please read the thread and the media releases. The governments Western Rail plan spells all this out. Including express services at 200km/h and sparking to Geelong and eventually Ballarat. This includes a new fleet of trains. The information has been in the public domain for a few weeks now. Keep up please.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Thanks for bringing this up. The PTUA as a whole have typically been very rail-skeptical over the last 20 years for reasons which I can only guess at. The late Paul Mees' prominent membership probably played a big role; he was a noted advocate of the "squeeze the existing infrastructure and reinvest the savings into buses and trams" approach, and had the academic platform to justify and promote his views.
Interesting that you brought Paul Mees into the discussion.
I too was perplexed on the PTUA stance until my missus pointed out that he came from a long family line of bus owners. "lovely family". Even academics have their prejudices.

cheers
John
justarider
I don't have a problem with PTUA encouraging the government to squeeze what we can out of what we have in terms of fleet and infrastructure. However, as I've mentioned above come election time spending a little to run extra trains in off peak of more busses to the suburbs don't get that same headlines as "Fast Rail" and "Shinny new train tunnel" All the politically boring improvements will come after November when the pollies stop beating their chests.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Thanks for bringing this up. The PTUA as a whole have typically been very rail-skeptical over the last 20 years for reasons which I can only guess at. The late Paul Mees' prominent membership probably played a big role; he was a noted advocate of the "squeeze the existing infrastructure and reinvest the savings into buses and trams" approach, and had the academic platform to justify and promote his views.
potatoinmymouth
The PTUA are 'rail skeptical' because the bus network is the very lowest of low-hanging fruit when it comes to raising public transport use. From a holistic perspective of Melbourne's transport system, their view is the correct one.

The PTUA has been on record as opposing the Metro Tunnel, the Regional Rail Link, the Regional Fast Rail (as a whole - not just the Bendigo debacle), the Dandenong triplication (back when that was on the cards), and just about every other capacity-increasing project in the 2000-2015 period. Instead, they've spent most of their time advocating for Doncaster rail. Only recently have they come to the party with their "Get On Board" campaign advocating Metro 2 - which, of course, runs through all those Green (or at least Watermelon) electorates that they seem to have aligned themselves with politically.
potatoinmymouth
  • PTUA opposition to the Metro Tunnel was made on the reasonable grounds of cost and that it would not drive growth in public transport use - its extra capacity is only theoretically required during peak periods and its main purpose appears to be to relieve congestion of the Swanston St tram corridor.
  • Some parts of their opposition to Regional Rail Link were correct, such as opposing the use of the Wyndham Vale route for Geelong trains - correctly predicting that trying to make a regional service also fulfil the role of a suburban one would rapidly turn into a disaster. On the other hand, their opposition to the Sunshine-Southern Cross section was mostly based on Paul Mees' batty misconceptions about the capacity of the Bunbury St Tunnel and related freight routes through Dynon.
  • The PTUA were totally correct about the wasteful nature of much of the fixed infrastructure spend of Regional Fast Rail. There was precisely one valuable project amongst it all - the Bungaree Deviation, which they also stuffed up by not providing for either total duplication along its length (including bridges) or at least a passing loop between the bridges as they are now finally building. The preconceived desire of politicians for 160kph express trains led to expensive signalling upgrades (TPWS) when keeping Double Line Block and ATC would've been just fine if they had stuck to a 130kph top speed. The PTUA correctly pointed out that the most cost-effective improvements to V/Line running times would come from improvements within the suburban area - a combination of signalling tweaks, improved timetabling and highly targeted infrastructure upgrades (overtaking lanes). Indeed, the biggest boost to patronage growth post-RFR and pre-RRL can be attributed to a completely different reason - the large drop in V/Line fares in 2007.
  • Dandenong Triplication was justified by the transport bureaucracy on the basis of improving express and freight travel times. The PTUA opposed this project because it would not actually improve access to or the quality of public transport outside of peak periods, where as upgrading weekday off-peak and weekend service frequencies actually would've - and would need no money to be spent of fixed infrastructure to do so.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you that the PTUA's insistence on heavy rail to Doncaster (and Rowville, too) is conspicuously inconsistent with their usually sober advocacy.

Addressing the rest of your post, let it never be forgotten that the leaders of the VR repeatedly insisted to the Parliament that there was no operational need for the City Loop, and even when construction had begun, told MPs that it was "not a railway project", and therefore they could not be blamed if it failed to have the desired effects of opening up the north of the CBD.
potatoinmymouth
There indeed was no operational need for the City Loop at the time. The City Loop's purpose of better dispersing passengers within the CBD instead of vomiting them out at Flinders St was not something that the VR needed at the time. Remember that the historical context was that the VR was in a period of patronage decline from a peak in the early 1950s and they had dealt with that peak patronage with all of the infrastructure that they had available at the time of the City Loop's construction. The VR was not focussed on patronage growth.


We have showed a continuing reluctance in Victoria (as @mejhammers1 has pointed out) to take radical steps in improving the structure of the underlying network, and yet the few minor instances of this in the previous half-century have been unqualified successes. If we had focused on "fixing the existing network", Hitachis would still be terminating and turning around at Flinders St, because that is precisely where defensive, inward-looking policy like that of the VR and early PTC leads.
potatoinmymouth
We have merely replaced the 'defensive, inward-looking policy of the VR' with politician-driven fixed infrastructure fetishism. Where once politicians only cared for dumping truckloads of money on suburban freeways, now they also spend a fraction of that prior budgeted money on large rail projects. There is merely an appearance of spending money on public transport - the underlying reasons for spending the money are entirely the same as that of the suburban freeways. So whilst it is a marked improvement for politicians to be spending money on the rail network, they are not spending it on low-hanging fruit but grandstanding. That is why the PTUA's skepticism is needed on these large projects.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia


Geelong Metro which I support but with the addition of Drysdale?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I am predicting a very very close race.  I think Guy is closing in on the ALP.



bevans
Bevans, if you think that the Coalition is going to do anything for Rail I would lay off whatever you are smoking. As bad as Jacinta Allan is sometimes she is a thousand times the Transport Minister the Coalition will put forward. I mean really, the composition of the Coalition apart from Denis Napthine leaving has not changed. Remember the biggest project they had done was the $120 Million Bayside Rail project which amounted to a few shelters and signalling upgrades, whilst simultaneously delaying the Melbourne Metro and transferring $350 Million from the RRL to Country Road Projects.

Talk about Cognitive Dissonance.


Michael
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I have dominant TAQ1A Allele with reduced D2 receptors meaning I need external stimulation for my dopamine fix. Smile
  slowcoach Junior Train Controller

Cardinia Rd, Mcgregor Rd, Main St & Racecourse Rd level crossings in Pakenham are now selected for removal by 2025.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
"Please read the thread and the media releases. The governments Western Rail plan spells all this out. Including express services at 200km/h and sparking to Geelong and eventually Ballarat. This includes a new fleet of trains. The information has been in the public domain for a few weeks now. Keep up please."
Information no longer accessible,how can I read it?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

"Please read the thread and the media releases. The governments Western Rail plan spells all this out. Including express services at 200km/h and sparking to Geelong and eventually Ballarat. This includes a new fleet of trains. The information has been in the public domain for a few weeks now. Keep up please."
Information no longer accessible,how can I read it?
melbtrip
Express services is above 160km/hr in Labor's plan, it's not specified as of yet. The 200km/hr figure is the Liberal's plan. Don't get them mixed up.

As for the information provide check this link: https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/western-rail-plan
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Express services is above 160 km/hr in Labor's plan, it's not specified as of yet. The 200 km/hr figure is the Liberal's plan.
"True Believers"
I don't think either is a plan; both are ideas that someone dreamed up whilst sitting on the bog.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Express services is above 160 km/hr in Labor's plan, it's not specified as of yet. The 200 km/hr figure is the Liberal's plan.
I don't think either is a plan; both are ideas that someone dreamed up whilst sitting on the bog.
Valvegear
Oh alright. You want me call them thought bubbles instead?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Express services is above 160 km/hr in Labor's plan, it's not specified as of yet. The 200 km/hr figure is the Liberal's plan.
I don't think either is a plan; both are ideas that someone dreamed up whilst sitting on the bog.
Valvegear
Well, the fast rail bit, anyway. You can't reasonably put Labor's ideas in the same basket as the Coalition - the gist of it is what people like yourself have been saying is needed for some time.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Greens making promises on rail to rowville.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/greens-pledge-a-rowville-rail-line-ahead-of-november-state-election
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Well, the fast rail bit, anyway. You can't reasonably put Labor's ideas in the same basket as the Coalition - the gist of it is what people like yourself have been saying is needed for some time.
"potatoinmymouth"
"people like me"? Who are people like me? I'll tell you - people who want a reliable rail service, and who believe that fast rail to Geelong is a joke.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Well, the fast rail bit, anyway. You can't reasonably put Labor's ideas in the same basket as the Coalition - the gist of it is what people like yourself have been saying is needed for some time.
"people like me"? Who are people like me? I'll tell you - people who want a reliable rail service, and who believe that fast rail to Geelong is a joke.
Valvegear
Yes, In Victoria all that is required is 130kph running, this would not be ultra difficult to arrange and would save much time on nearly all lines. As I and a number of others have said the big time sink is getting through the metro area, this is where the funds need to be spent.

woodford
  Gavin J Junior Train Controller

Location: Stawell
Just received a political pamplet from one of our parties...
as usual some interesting words and statements to impress the voters, that actually mean very little....

"Upgraded Ararat and Maryborough rail lines"

I assume she means the Avoca line, if so the upgrade is slower than last time it was reopened in 1995.

"Reopened the Murray Basin Rail line to get goods from paddock to port quickly"

I'm sure the punters can look at a map to work out where the Murray Basin Rail line is ?
and I'm with DangerDan on this......it was quicker on the old broad gauge and much quicker in the good ol 80s and  
90s.

"committed to uplifting the Maryborough line to help return passenger rail to Dunolly"

Strange use of the word 'uplifting'....  (reverse it as lifting-up !)

"Increased  freight rail to take more trucks off our roads"

Living beside the main western line, I've only seen less and less trains, not more...
also the current Merbein jumped from a stable 61 wagons down to about 22 wagons overnight....

"Separating freight from passenger rail to pave the way for the return of train services to Dunolly"

so does this mean no freight on the Ballarat to Maryborough section, so it will go the long way via Cressy
which makes a mockery of the, ".... get goods from paddock to port quickly" statement.

And I'm sure every time the punters hear about a return of rail services to Dunolly ( or the Libs return to  Donald )
they must wonder where these towns are, then look them up to see they are small towns, and wonder why they are getting
a rail service.

Meanwhile in our dieing town of Stawell....no mention by either party of the Overland funding finishing in March 2019
which might mean the end of our only passenger train. I'm sure they both are hoping no one raises the question.

Our Vline approved station gets almost zero maintenance, huge potholes in the access road took over a year to be
fixed, last time it took 2 years.....it took 9 months to fix our broken station lights, the $$$$ air conditioned
waiting room is back to being closed again....nothing better than sitting in the freezing cold and rain at 6am, or
sweltering in the mid afternoon heat, knowing an air conditioned waiting room is only thru those windows, and thats
after you have walked to the Milk Bar to buy your ticket, but no one cares to get it reopened.....Council or
Politicians...they do not want to know.

The front page headlines from 9 months ago about the private consortium bringing back the Horsham train "tomorrow"
has been forgotten about.....the Politcal parties are now on a 4 year feasibility study first, with a hope of a return
by 2024.

I'm not being Political here, I just love when they make statements that sound impressive, but mean nothing !
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Interesting Financial Review article discussing the potential result.
It offers advice on how the Guy could have done better in getting the voters on his side. Even though he has three weeks to go the author pretty considers him a really long shot now. As preferred Premier Andrews is streets ahead of Guy (45 to 29%) but the party preferences are a lot closer.
It covers a wide range of topics, not just public transport, but does make the point that Andrews has actually been active in getting lots of things done and how those projects are positively impacting the electorate, even if people "love him or loathe him". It says that The Liberals have lost touch with who they are supposed to be representing.
It finishes with the major issues; i.e. health, education, etc and what the differences are between what the two parties are promising.  
Well worth a read IMHO

https://www.afr.com/news/politics/election/victorian-election-2018-blame-game-begins-in-poll-liberals-could-have-won-20181030-h17a1s


Neil
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic

Caulfield - Dandenong:   19.4 km  26 minutes average 45kph, speed X3 save 16 minutes : quad track cost $3B, tunnel $5B
(assuming can overcome the nimby skyrail bun fight , multiplied by 10)

cheers
John
justarider
John,

I would like to know where you got your $5B 19.4km Tunnel cost from? It has been stated before that the cost per Kilometer is $1B per Tunnel in that neck of the woods, more for the Diesel option. So, I say that you are a few Billion short.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


Caulfield - Dandenong:   19.4 km  26 minutes average 45kph, speed X3 save 16 minutes : quad track cost $3B, tunnel $5B
(assuming can overcome the nimby skyrail bun fight , multiplied by 10)

cheers
JohnJohn,

I would like to know where you got your $5B 19.4km Tunnel cost from? It has been stated before that the cost per Kilometer is $1B per Tunnel in that neck of the woods, more for the Diesel option. So, I say that you are a few Billion short.
Jack Le Lievre
$1B per km would include station costs (see MM1)

Just a TBM could be done much cheaper.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Caulfield - Dandenong:   19.4 km  26 minutes average 45kph, speed X3 save 16 minutes : quad track cost $3B, tunnel $5B
(assuming can overcome the nimby skyrail bun fight , multiplied by 10)
cheers
John

John,
I would like to know where you got your $5B 19.4km Tunnel cost from? It has been stated before that the cost per Kilometer is $1B per Tunnel in that neck of the woods, more for the Diesel option. So, I say that you are a few Billion short.

$1B per km would include station costs (see MM1)
Just a TBM could be done much cheaper.
John.Z
yes @John.z the big cost is stations, which an express doesn't need
TBM are indeed cheaper than many want to believe.


@Jack, the $5B guesstimate came from  http://hotrails.net/resources/cost-estimates    some very rough, per km

$62M      tunnel
+$2.25M track
+$0.6M   signal & control
+$1.5M   power
=$67M @ 2013 prices
round up to $100M per km for current prices
DOUBLE IT because this is Melbourne

= $200M X 20km = $4B
plus consultants and other minor works, I made it $5B give or take a bill.

Diesel would be tricky, smoke stacks all along would be nasty. Politically expensive.

Another option is to use Diesel/Electric V/Lo for that line.
Additional cost of that rolling stock variant, compared to the smoke stacks, should not be a deal breaker.

My point of the post was "is it worth $5B to gain 16 minutes ??".
Number crunchers can come up with whatever answer the asker wants.

PS: $1B per km is a wild figure used many times without justification. SRL quotes half that ($50B per 90km)

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


My point of the post was "is it worth $5B to gain 16 minutes ??".
Number crunchers can come up with whatever answer the asker wants.

PS: $1B per km is a wild figure used many times without justification. SRL quotes half that ($50B per 90km)

cheers
John
justarider
One reason being, there is a lower density of stations along the SRL than a typical inner city metro.

$5B for 16 mins no.

$5B for segregation of VLine and Freight from the commuter network, still probably a little bit too pricey, but won't get any cheaper when it's necessary. Another solution would be to skyrail along the princess highway. Plenty of Median
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Interesting that premier.vic.gov.au has been scrubbed of content added after the caretaker period began. I certainly did wonder the other day how well the “Strongest Economy in the Nation” press release, complete with “only Labor are this, only Labor will do that”, meshed with conventions.

Both parties seem utterly intent on trashing all sorts of parliamentary conventions, so I wonder who had a quiet word to the Premier’s staff?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

This one has slipped under the radar. Is Dan chasing Chinese money and expertise to build our infrastructure?  Strange.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/morrison-lashes-victoria-over-china-deal
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Interesting that premier.vic.gov.au has been scrubbed of content added after the caretaker period began. I certainly did wonder the other day how well the “Strongest Economy in the Nation” press release, complete with “only Labor are this, only Labor will do that”, meshed with conventions.

Both parties seem utterly intent on trashing all sorts of parliamentary conventions, so I wonder who had a quiet word to the Premier’s staff?
potatoinmymouth
a bit rough PIMM.

The Labour posts are now all at http://www.danandrews.com.au.
A properly authorised and paid(by ALP) site. In the spirit and letter of the conventions.

PS: note that all the government web sites all state
"The State election will be held on Saturday 24 November 2018. During the caretaker period (commencing 6pm, 30 October 2018) content will only be added to this website in line with the caretaker conventions"
never saw that when the Libs were in charge.

cheers
John

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