Baxter Electrification

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
If the Frankston Hospital station started just Down of the curve (i.e near Yuille St) and the existing Leawarra Station (which serves theMonash Uni campus) was upgraded and not moved then there'd be about a kilometre between the stations. It's not an ideal distance between stations as they'd have an overlapping walkshed but it'd still be economical given the size of each trip generator and the benefits for the many mobility-impaired passengers who would likely use the Frankston Hospital station.
LancedDendrite

Many stations on the Metro Network would be 1km or less apart.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

If the Frankston Hospital station started just Down of the curve (i.e near Yuille St) and the existing Leawarra Station (which serves theMonash Uni campus) was upgraded and not moved then there'd be about a kilometre between the stations. It's not an ideal distance between stations as they'd have an overlapping walkshed but it'd still be economical given the size of each trip generator and the benefits for the many mobility-impaired passengers who would likely use the Frankston Hospital station.

Many stations on the Metro Network would be 1km or less apart.
bevans
That doesn't make it desirable. There's plenty of discussion in this thread and elsewhere about optimal station spacing, and much of that comes with suggestions for rationalising ridiculously close station pairs.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
That doesn't make it desirable. There's plenty of discussion in this thread and elsewhere about optimal station spacing, and much of that comes with suggestions for rationalising ridiculously close station pairs.
potatoinmymouth

Agreed.  I think stations should be ideally located next to major locations which are frequented or expected to be frequented by rail passengers.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

bevans
That's insane - they can't even wait till after the election to renege on their promises!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Are we getting a sneak preview of the backpedaling on rail project investment the liberals will do if they are elected?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Are we getting a sneak preview of the backpedaling on rail project investment the liberals will do if they are elected?
bevans

I would put the house on it.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Are we getting a sneak preview of the backpedaling on rail project investment the liberals will do if they are elected?
bevans
Not from what my sources tell me. They are serious about rail upgrades. I think Donna Bauer got her stations mixed up.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Are we getting a sneak preview of the backpedaling on rail project investment the liberals will do if they are elected?
Not from what my sources tell me. They are serious about rail upgrades. I think Donna Bauer got her stations mixed up.
Duncs
I just saw what Donna said. I believe she is being realistic about funding, and as far as I am concerned Baxter WILL happen. Ultimately the entire line to Stony Point will be electrified. But Baxter will happen first.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
They need to decide what they intend to do development wise down that way.

Unless the intention is to allow development towards Hastings, with Frankston as a major CBD, the thing should just be closed.  It is not economically feasible to electrify part of the line - it is all or nothing, as the further electrification reaches the less viable the diesel portion becomes.

However developing Frankston as a proper centre makes sense - the peninsula is already fairly self-contained, for residents of Frankston and Mornington Pen. respectively, workplaces are located:

Frankston >>> 33% / 11%
Mornington Pen >>> 9% / 55%
Dandenong >>> 11% / 5%
Casey >>> 5% / 3%
Kingston >>> 10% / 4%
City of Melb / Yarra / Port Phillip >>> 8% / 6%

An express rail connection from Frankston up to Dandenong (eg. via Eastlink and Eumemmerring Creek or Western Port Hwy) is justifiable, which would help support both Frankston and Dandenong as major suburban CBDs.  In terms of Frankston specifically, provision of express services in this manner is beneficial as it eliminates the need for any track amplification south of Caulfield.  The catchment of the Frankston line drops significantly past Mentone, hence it is not economical or indeed necessary to provide express service for the section between Caulfield and Frankston.

This also increases the benefits of quadding between Caulfield and Dandenong, and there's no reason travel time could not get down to 20min city to Dandenong (conservatively) giving:

*City to Dandenong Stopping - 42min
*City to Frankston Stopping - 64min

*City to Dandenong Express - 20min
>>>Dandenong - Frankston +15min
>>>Dandenong - Stony Point +50min
>>>Dandenong - Clyde +20min
>>>Dandenong - Pakenham +27min
>>>Dandenong - Traralgon +80-90min

That is, savings of around 25min and 30min to Dandenong and Frankston respectively.  With Frankston as a self-sufficient CBD, one would push for development along the Stony Point line towards Hastings.  The only justification for keeping the entire line beyond Hastings to Stony Point is if the ferry service to Phillip Island is developed as the primary public transport route.  Given a half hour ferry trip, this is not an unreasonable proposition compared with the 2hr20min coach journey from Dandenong to Cowes.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

This also increases the benefits of quadding between Caulfield and Dandenong, and there's no reason travel time could not get down to 20min city to Dandenong (conservatively) giving:

*City to Dandenong Stopping - 42min
*City to Frankston Stopping - 64min

*City to Dandenong Express - 20min
>>>Dandenong - Frankston +15min
>>>Dandenong - Stony Point +50min
>>>Dandenong - Clyde +20min
>>>Dandenong - Pakenham +27min
>>>Dandenong - Traralgon +80-90min
ZH836301
Been saying this here for the past year, falls on deaf ears. Add in the Long Island Steel and Port of Hastings, and the line practically pays for itself into the CBD.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
They need to decide what they intend to do development wise down that way.
...

An express rail connection from Frankston up to Dandenong (eg. via Eastlink and Eumemmerring Creek or Western Port Hwy) is justifiable, which would help support both Frankston and Dandenong as major suburban CBDs.  In terms of Frankston specifically, provision of express services in this manner is beneficial as it eliminates the need for any track amplification south of Caulfield.  The catchment of the Frankston line drops significantly past Mentone, hence it is not economical or indeed necessary to provide express service for the section between Caulfield and Frankston.

This also increases the benefits of quadding between Caulfield and Dandenong, and there's no reason travel time could not get down to 20min city to Dandenong (conservatively) giving:
ZH836301
I call FOUL
Another thread with no basis in reality - this garbage belongs in Armchair Operators.
ZH836301 _ Frankston to Ringwood Orbital Line Proposal
@ZH , do you take a contrary view each time just to see how many you can annoy.
Missed your mark this time, actually supported views held by other posters

EDIT: where did the Clyde station come from on your list of improvements. Aren't you anti that as well.

cheers
John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Quadding Caulfield To Dandenong needs to be done ASAP
If we are talking about Frankston to Dandenong Corridor Connection, it would be cheaper to join the line up near Yarraman. Would mean that tunneling wouldn’t be needed as it could join up from the Eastlink reservation. Services to the future Mornington Line, Stony Point, Hastings and Long Island Freight would use this corridor joining up with the Traralgon and other freight services which would separate Metro and VLine.

Baxter Electrification would have stations at Frankston Hospital, Peninsula University and Baxter, a three/four platform station can be built at Baxter. Future Baxter Quadruplication will become a priority and that can be built after other projects are completed.

This branch from the Frankston to Dandenong Corridor wouldn’t cost much given it is above ground, it would necessitate the Quadding to Dandenong and could also provide commuters in Keysborough and Carrum Downs better public transport access if stations were built along this corridor.

A worthwhile project
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
@ZH , do you take a contrary view each time just to see how many you can annoy.
justarider

Dandenong>Frankston != Ringwood>Frankston


If we are talking about Frankston to Dandenong Corridor Connection, it would be cheaper to join the line up near Yarraman. Would mean that tunneling wouldn’t be needed as it could join up from the Eastlink reservation. Services to the future Mornington Line, Stony Point, Hastings and Long Island Freight would use this corridor joining up with the Traralgon and other freight services which would separate Metro and VLine.
ptvcommuter

Providing a connection to Dandenong is far more important for developing both as principal activity centres.

Tunnelling isn't required, using Western Port Hwy/Thompsons or Eummerring Creek results in ~3km less in new track rather than following Eastlink.


Baxter Electrification would have stations at Frankston Hospital, Peninsula University and Baxter, a three/four platform station can be built at Baxter. Future Baxter Quadruplication will become a priority and that can be built after other projects are completed.
ptvcommuter

In what reality would quadding to Baxter ever be required?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@ZH , do you take a contrary view each time just to see how many you can annoy.

Dandenong>Frankston != Ringwood>Frankston
ZH836301
yep just proved my point. you are contrary just for the fun of it
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Arguing from a logical basis upsets those on this site who like to play with crayons on maps.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Quadding Caulfield To Dandenong needs to be done ASAP
If we are talking about Frankston to Dandenong Corridor Connection, it would be cheaper to join the line up near Yarraman. Would mean that tunneling wouldn’t be needed as it could join up from the Eastlink reservation. Services to the future Mornington Line, Stony Point, Hastings and Long Island Freight would use this corridor joining up with the Traralgon and other freight services which would separate Metro and VLine.

Baxter Electrification would have stations at Frankston Hospital, Peninsula University and Baxter, a three/four platform station can be built at Baxter. Future Baxter Quadruplication will become a priority and that can be built after other projects are completed.

This branch from the Frankston to Dandenong Corridor wouldn’t cost much given it is above ground, it would necessitate the Quadding to Dandenong and could also provide commuters in Keysborough and Carrum Downs better public transport access if stations were built along this corridor.

A worthwhile project
ptvcommuter
Quad the Dandenong link needs to stand on it's own merit.
Patching another band-aid over the top of previous patches doesn't make it better.

Justifying a complete new line, by pax/freight numbers south of Frankston is a joke.
"Long Island Freight" - ONE train per day, get real
Mornington line - no sniff of desire for that one.
Baxter a few. Remember that the main thrust of the project is new stable yard for Frankston.
Stony Point - a population of about 5  (PTV station survey didn't even bother with the Stony Point line)

Express for the lucky group at Frankston. Too bad for anybody closer in.

Adding stations (Carrum Downs etc) would be a service improvement for that corridor, but there goes any savings you thought "express" would deliver.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


Dandenong>Frankston != Ringwood>Frankstonyep just proved my point. you are contrary just for the fun of it
justarider
How is saying that a connection between Dandenong and Frankston for the purpose of providing express tracks to the South, South East of Melbourne to the City "contrary just for the fun of it" in comparison to providing a SRL 2.0 between Ringwood and Frankston?

Two different rail lines serving two very different purposes
1. To provide express service and freight segregation for the mornington peninsula and western port into the city
2. To provide direct service between Eastland and the mornington peninsula.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Quad the Dandenong link needs to stand on it's own merit.
Patching another band-aid over the top of previous parches doesn't make it better.

Justifying a complete new line, by pax/freight numbers south of Frankston is a joke.
"Long Island Freight" - ONE train per day, get real
Mornington line - no sniff of desire for that one.
Stony Point - a population of about 5  (PTV station survey didn't even bother with the Stony Point line)

Express for the lucky group at Frankston. Too bad for anybody closer in.

Adding stations (Carrum Down etc) would be a service improvement for that corridor, but there goes any savings you thought "express" would deliver.

cheers
John
justarider
Quadding to Dandenong will be a $1B plus project, closer to $3B. The benefits need to be substantial.

Long Island Steel may be 1 train per day, but a Port of Hastings would be likely many, many more trains. This link would help the viability of such a project.

No reason why stations couldn't be built between Dandenong and Frankston, as it stands, there's not many people living in that green wedge to support such a notion.

RE mornington and stony point lines, demand always follows supply when it comes to PTV. See the smart busses compared to normal ones.

No reason the mornington line couldn't be extended to Capel Sound. The route 788 bus is constantly full and won't take additional passengers. Demand is there.

Stony Point line has ample room for suburban expansion surrounding it. Sommerville, Tyab, Hastings, Bittern could all host many more houses than they currently do. Why do we keep building housing estates with no PT, when we can build them here instead? The number of residents from Western Port who drive to Frankston might surprise you, 5 is very disingenuous.

This project would be part of a bigger electrified Regional Express Network, top speed 250km/hr

Dandenong [Traralgon, Warrigal, Pakenahm, Stony Point] to Airport/Bendigo/Seymour
Geelong [Colac, Torquay, Drysdale] to Airport/Ballarat

Trains beyond to Bairnsdale, Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Ararat etc. would connect at the Main Station on each line [Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo etc.], would run as VLo on Class 1 track.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

Dandenong>Frankston != Ringwood>Frankstonyep just proved my point. you are contrary just for the fun of itHow is saying that a connection between Dandenong and Frankston for the purpose of providing express tracks to the South, South East of Melbourne to the City "contrary just for the fun of it" in comparison to providing a SRL 2.0 between Ringwood and Frankston?

Two different rail lines serving two very different purposes
1. To provide express service and freight segregation for the mornington peninsula and western port into the city
2. To provide direct service between Eastland and the mornington peninsula.
John.Z
well in that thread, ZH could have said Frankston>Ringwood only half good.
But as usual just $hit bagged. Then proceeded to claim half of it , including other poster's add ins, as his own.

Neat trick reversing the direction of the line title to pretend it's all about Ringwood. It isn't. A true sophist at work.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Quad the Dandenong link needs to stand on it's own merit.
Patching another band-aid over the top of previous parches doesn't make it better.

cheers
John
Quadding to Dandenong will be a $1B plus project, closer to $3B. The benefits need to be substantial.

Long Island Steel may be 1 train per day, but a Port of Hastings would be likely many, many more trains. This link would help the viability of such a project.

No reason why stations couldn't be built between Dandenong and Frankston, as it stands, there's not many people living in that green wedge to support such a notion.

RE mornington and stony point lines, demand always follows supply when it comes to PTV. See the smart busses compared to normal ones.

No reason the mornington line couldn't be extended to Capel Sound. The route 788 bus is constantly full and won't take additional passengers. Demand is there.

Stony Point line has ample room for suburban expansion surrounding it. Sommerville, Tyab, Hastings, Bittern could all host many more houses than they currently do. Why do we keep building housing estates with no PT, when we can build them here instead? The number of residents from Western Port who drive to Frankston might surprise you, 5 is very disingenuous.

This project would be part of a bigger electrified Regional Express Network, top speed 250km/hr

Dandenong [Traralgon, Warrigal, Pakenahm, Stony Point] to Airport/Bendigo/Seymour
Geelong [Colac, Torquay, Drysdale] to Airport/Ballarat

Trains beyond to Bairnsdale, Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Ararat etc. would connect at the Main Station on each line [Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo etc.], would run as VLo on Class 1 track.
John.Z
your support for the Dandy Quad is long standing. Good luck with that, it will happen somehow/sometime.

But using non-existent projects on the Stony Point line is pie in the sky.

I have no issue with improving the line to attract more customers, Somerville & Hastings in particular.
It's long overdue and sparks reaching only to Baxter is short-sighted. At least it's a start.

cheers
John
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Quad the Dandenong link needs to stand on it's own merit.
Patching another band-aid over the top of previous patches doesn't make it better.

Justifying a complete new line, by pax/freight numbers south of Frankston is a joke.
justarider
Why?  Quadding to Dandenong is more than justified - the expense of quadding along the existing alignment to Frankston is not.

A line from Dandenong to Frankston provides for a reasonable journey time to Melbourne for Frankston and the peninsula, strengthening both Dandenong and Frankston as principal activity centres, and is something that can be provided at a fraction of the cost of trying to quad along the existing alignment from Caulfield towards Frankston.


Express for the lucky group at Frankston. Too bad for anybody closer in.
justarider
So?  Why exactly does the thin strip of suburbia from Mentone to Seaford require express services?  Travel time from Carrum to the city is not dissimilar to other outer suburban stations like Mernda, that will never see express services.

There are 50% more people commuting from Frankston and the pensinula to Melbourne than Geelong, and you're trying to tell me that a line from Frankston to Dandenong, something that increases the utilisation of an express pair to Dandenong, is unjustified but something like the Regional Rail Link is?

well in that thread, ZH could have said Frankston>Ringwood only half good.
But as usual just $hit bagged. Then proceeded to claim half of it , including other poster's add ins, as his own.
justarider
Claim as my own?  

a/  I don't come here to get my ego stroked, I don't need praise for 'ideas'
b/  I've been interested in such things far longer than you've been on this site
c/  The idea of a connection from Dandenong to Frankston has been around for at least 50 years

It was included as part of the 1969 Melbourne Transportation Plan - it is not the recent invention of anyone here.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

How good would it have been if you could take PT to Peninsula during the holidays, a line to Mornington and a bussway to Portsea direct from the City. Dandenong To Frankston has serious merit as does the line to Ringwood.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Well, Ringwood > Frankston has been around a long time. Tis debatable whether it is light rail or heavy rail.
Enables PT services to Knox City, which *should* have its tram service by now.

If there is money on the table for Rowville - which is on the route for Ringwood-Frankston, then the second leg is likely to happen.

Lets look at shutdowns.  LOT of people travel to Glen Waverley during shutdowns simply to have a train service to the city.
You can go and verify this during January.  People are prepared to travel to access commuter services.
Its been proven time and time again in the South Eastern suburbs.

Frankston-Dandenong should have happened yonks ago. Lazy, good for nothing governments looking to western suburbs and the north for development and ignoring the South East. Berwick - Port of Hastings is supposed to be SG --> well, what provision has been made for that?

I work with a fellow who lives in Somerville and sometimes works in Port Melbourne, sometimes works in Frankston. He tells me electrification to Hastings will pay, and going via Dandenong will work provided its an express service to the city. He just wants an accessible, reliable service. If electrification to Hastings will pay, then it might as well be electrification all the way to Stony Point.

Build it and they will come.

We've had plans for Leawarra stabling, Langwarrin stabling and Baxter stabling. Golly, the planners make a lot of money.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Would a station at Karingal (area around/near Bunarong Park) have any merit, there is pretty large population, housing and shopping centre nearby ?

Without detail from a buisness Plan we can gather that so far it looks like there will be stations at Frankston East (to serve Frankston Hopsital/Monash Peninsula Campus), Langwarrin and Baxter. Similar to the Mernda Line Project where Middle Gorge (Marymede) was added to the project after consultation with the community

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