Melbourne Metro tunnel 2

 
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The Government has gone into Caretaker mode today which I would imagine would limit such press conferences.

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  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Might be an announcement of planning money but I can't see much else happening.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

A good point about the caretaker period, and that would explain why they were so keen to get down to Newport today.

Journos on the Labor campaign bus say the plan is to work inward from the regions and finish in the green belt. It’ll happen then, surely.
  footscrazy Station Master

Only a few days left till the MM2 announcement!


Couple of questions:

1. Will Guy match it? (Or even beat Andrews to the announcement)

2. Will it be built before, after or simultaneously with SRL?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Only a few days left till the MM2 announcement!


Couple of questions:

1. Will Guy match it? (Or even beat Andrews to the announcement)

2. Will it be built before, after or simultaneously with SRL?
footscrazy
Sorry - have I missed something? Is this from a source of some kind? Or just an educated guess?
  footscrazy Station Master

Only a few days left till the MM2 announcement!


Couple of questions:

1. Will Guy match it? (Or even beat Andrews to the announcement)

2. Will it be built before, after or simultaneously with SRL?
Sorry - have I missed something? Is this from a source of some kind? Or just an educated guess?


Educated guess Smile

potatoinmymouth
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

There won’t be an announcement on Metro 2, given the pledges to Western Rail Plan, Suburban Rail Loop and Airport Rail how are we going to afford all of these, build them in the same timeframe, etc.
I don’t think it will happen, I want it to but I don’t think it will happen.
Western Rail Plan - ??? unknown
Level crossing Removals - taxpayer funded 6.6 Billion
Metro Tunnel - already funded
Airport rail - 5 billion (15 Billion total)
Cranbourne Duplication - 750 Million
Hurstbridge Duplication - 550 Million
Suburban Rail Loop - 50 Billion estimate ??
Baxter Electrification - Unknown
Caulfield To Rowville Light Rail or Train - Unknown
South Geelong Duplication - 736 Million
Car Parks - 150 Million
North East Link - 15 Billion
West Gate Tunnel - Privately Funded
Regional Rail Revival - 1.5 Billion

Don’t see where the money comes for MM2, Private Funding or new tax introduced to pay it off. I’d love to see it but think it will come in the 2022 election if labor keep government this year
Only a few days left till the MM2 announcement! Couple of questions

1. Will Guy match it? (Or even beat Andrews to the announcement)
2. Will it be built before, after or simultaneously with SRL?
footscrazy
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Don’t see where the money comes for MM2, Private Funding or new tax introduced to pay it off. I’d love to see it but think it will come in the 2022 election if labor keep government this year
ptvcommuter

I tend to agree, although given today’s announcement that the Liberals will (probably) not be contesting the Green belt seats running through MM2 territory, I would not be surprised if the calculus changes for Labor sufficiently that they announce it anyway.

For a party which has prided itself on “delivering” it would be embarrassing to be forced into a project of this scale by a Greens crossbench in the Assembly. I think they may still announce planning funds, if only to save face.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Is there a chance that Federal Labor could get behind it and contribute say 1/2 funding? It will take at least what 6 years to build. So say $1-2 billion a year is manageable from the Feds.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Metro I is 9km long and is taking 10 years to build. Metro II is to be about 15km long. Even if it got a 'running start' in that Rail Projects Victoria is already set up and could redeploy existing staff and contractors onto it, it would still take longer than 6 years I would imagine.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Does MM2 need a stop at Clifton Hill ?

Hurstbridge/Future Doncaster services can change trains at Flagstaff and you can make the trains run via the loop in the morning to cater for this.

The route from Parkville to Clifton Hill isn't very direct. Tunnelling from Clifton Hill Station to Merri would also be challenging.

After Parkville the train could have stops at Carlton North then Fitzroy North and then coming back up just after Merri Station
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Does MM2 need a stop at Clifton Hill ? Hurstbridge/Future Doncaster services can change trains at Flagstaff and you can make the trains run via the loop in the morning to cater for this.
ptvcommuter


I think it would be silly not to include the interchange given the lack of a downstream interchange option (à la Caulfield with MM1). Of course the SRL may negate some of this need but I think it’s foolish to miss chances for connectivity between lines when the overall goal is to create a multi-nodal network.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I don't really mind there not being an interchange at Clifton Hill. If people are so desperate they could walk or take a bus from North Fitzroy. But assuming one would be built, it could probably be constructed a couple of hundred metres away, avoiding the need to tunnel underneath the creek and have a stupid curve. The escalators could come out underneath Clifton Hill and provide access to each of the platforms.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I'm of the opinion that it is better to maximise the number of connections between lines, and not minimise them. With regards to Clifton Hill, it really depends on what is done with Rushall station, and how they go about easing the curves between Rushall and Merri, which would be one of the considerations of moving any track in the area.

I could see Rushall Crescent being acquired for the descent, Rushall being closed, and a new Clifton Hill station being built at the west end of Mayor's Park (the intersection of Queens Parade/Heidelberg Road) with an underground pedestrian subway connection to the existing station about 300m away. Essentially replacing Rushall with a Clifton Hill interchange.
  John E Locomotive Fireman

You would want the 300 metre subway to be patrolled constantly by PSO's and cameras. You'd imagine all sorts will be hanging around/sleeping etc. This is not generally an issue at very busy stations but a clifton hill interchange is unlikely to see too much foot traffic.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I'm not sold on the eastern section of MM2 - the western section has by far the greater benefit.

Both Mernda and Hurstbridge lines could do with some station rationalisation to increase the line speeds and drop journey times, along with improvement in placements.  In particular, as part of level crossing removals south of Preston you would probably be better with stations at:

*Miller St (to connect with 86 tram)
*Normanby Ave (Keilor East-Ivanhoe)
*Arthurton Rd (MP-Fairfield)

The current proposed path for MM2 is beyond stupid - it shows how constrained this city is by the inability of those in charge to grow a pair and close stations where it would be for the greater good.

If you enter a tunnel south of Arthurton St, you could put a new station at Westgarth St beneath High St (easy to dig up) crossing above Merri Creek towards Clifton Hill (which could be removed).  That would give four stations between Preston and Victoria Park, without the horrendous curve at Rushall, drastically decreasing journey time.  If still set on the northern section of MM2, you could instead use the Hurstbridge line with an interchange at Westgarth (dump Dennis) leading to a new station in Clifton Hill around Michael St on Queens Pde and heading towards the CBD from there.

Unfortunately, little thought has been put into the actual outcomes and system preferences for both MM1 & MM2, besides shiny new tunnels and stations.  Such cross-city links are indeed needed for complete system metrofication, but it's not something that has apparently been considered with much thought.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

I'm not sold on the eastern section of MM2 - the western section has by far the greater benefit. Both Mernda and Hurstbridge lines could do with some station rationalisation to increase the line speeds and drop journey times, along with improvement in placements. In particular, as part of level crossing removals south of Preston you would probably be better with stations at: *Miller St (to connect with 86 tram) *Normanby Ave (Keilor East-Ivanhoe) *Arthurton Rd (MP-Fairfield) The current proposed path for MM2 is beyond stupid - it shows how constrained this city is by the inability of those in charge to grow a pair and close stations where it would be for the greater good. If you enter a tunnel south of Arthurton St, you could put a new station at Westgarth St beneath High St (easy to dig up) crossing above Merri Creek towards Clifton Hill (which could be removed). That would give four stations between Preston and Victoria Park, without the horrendous curve at Rushall, drastically decreasing journey time. If still set on the northern section of MM2, you could instead use the Hurstbridge line with an interchange at Westgarth (dump Dennis) leading to a new station in Clifton Hill around Michael St on Queens Pde and heading towards the CBD from there. Unfortunately, little thought has been put into the actual outcomes and system preferences for both MM1 & MM2, besides shiny new tunnels and stations. Such cross-city links are indeed needed for complete system metrofication, but it's not something that has apparently been considered with much thought.
ZH836301
I will actually support you for once in that Croxton and Thornbury could be potentially moved to a superstation at Normanby Ave. I also support moving Clifton Hill station for a MM2 Interchange.

However, the Eastern alignment is critical as it would separate the Hurstbridge and Mernda Lines, allow for a future Wollert
Extension which would not constrain capacity, remove the ridiculous curve and also allow for a future Doncaster Line to be provided. Carlton North and Fitzroy North are crying out for a train which MM2 would provide.


Anyway one week till election, MM2 is looking unlikely gonna have to wait till 2022, sigh
  footscrazy Station Master

booo, no MM2 announcement during the campaign!

Surely by 2022!
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

My predictions on this front don’t carry much weight any more, but I’ll have another crack.

I reckon it’ll be Labor’s big mid-term announcement around 2020 or early 2021. In much the same way as the Regional Rail Revival program all came together in 2016/early 2017 when it hadn’t been an election policy.

The other possibility is that the Metro Tunnel TBMs are nearing the conclusion of their journey in early 2022 and Labor pulls a Suburban Rail Loop style “surprise, we’ve been working on this for years and early works start tomorrow”. It worked so well this time there’s no reason they wouldn’t try again.

Remember also the West Gate Tunnel is due for completion in 2022 so they won’t want mass layoffs to follow that.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
My predictions on this front don’t carry much weight any more, but I’ll have another crack.

I reckon it’ll be Labor’s big mid-term announcement around 2020 or early 2021. In much the same way as the Regional Rail Revival program all came together in 2016/early 2017 when it hadn’t been an election policy.

The other possibility is that the Metro Tunnel TBMs are nearing the conclusion of their journey in early 2022 and Labor pulls a Suburban Rail Loop style “surprise, we’ve been working on this for years and early works start tomorrow”. It worked so well this time there’s no reason they wouldn’t try again.

Remember also the West Gate Tunnel is due for completion in 2022 so they won’t want mass layoffs to follow that.
potatoinmymouth
North East Link works will slot in as the follow-on for the West Gate Tunnel workforce.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

So the RMIT professor reckons melbournes infrastructure boom isn't enough. Metro 2 for him is a priority as it will help establish fishermends bend and the future housing.

West Gate Tunnel, North East Link, Suburban Rail Loop, Airport Rail, Geelong/Ballarat High Speed Rail, Cranbourne Duplication, Mordialloc Freeway, LX removals, Electrifications around the network, Rowville Light Rail, Monash Upgarde, High Capacity Trains, Metri Tunnel and Regional Rail Revival are all proposed or underway

The jewel in the crown would be building Metro 2. It would cost 15-20 Billion but its benefits would be immense. The west is growing at an alarming rate and Metro 2 would cater for this. Electrification as part of the project to Wollert and West Werribee (Blackforest Rd) would further enhance this project. It is needed now alongside all these mega projects.

How do we afford it though. There was actually 3 Billion allocated to the Metro Tunnel that Tony Abbot dumped. We are the fastest growing city yet we have had 8% of the infrastructure spending in our country. There is 3 Billion locked away for the East West Link, a project that isn't going ahead and we Victorians have been short changed.

Metro 2 is needed now, however we may not be able to deliver it now
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
According to Andrew Lund's twitter feed Acting Premier Pallas, on Jan 1st, has indicated Metro 2 is not happening due to higher priority needs elsewhere (no indication of what these needs are). You'll have to go back through his feed to Jan 1 to see this comment on this link Andrew Lund. Pallas did indicate that the transport needs of Fishermans Bend needs to be considered by the government.
Hopefully, PIMM and other poster, comments about a mid term announcement come true.


Neil
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

According to Andrew Lund's twitter feed Acting Premier Pallas, on Jan 1st, has indicated Metro 2 is not happening due to higher priority needs elsewhere (no indication of what these needs are). You'll have to go back through his feed to Jan 1 to see this comment on this link Andrew Lund. Pallas did indicate that the transport needs of Fishermans Bend needs to be considered by the government. Hopefully, PIMM and other poster, comments about a mid term announcement come true. Neil
ngarner


Los Angeles is going though a US 150 Billion dollar infrastructure spree. They I believe have introduced some taxes to help pay for it. I would support this in Victoria, however I’m sure many wouldn’t, especially the conservatives and it may end up being political suicide.

Right now we are spending around 90 Billion mark on infrastructure which includes North East Link (15 Billion), Potential Suburban Rail Loop (estimates of 50 Billion), Level Crossing Removals (14 Billion), The Huge Western Rail (Unknown) and Airport Rail (5 Billion)

MM2 will cost around 16.5 Billion without all the add ons of Wollert/Werribee Line extensions. The western section is the more pressing and will probably be built first, estimated at around 9.5 Billion. This section is from Newport to Parkville. Hopefully there is a mid term announcement like the NE link so it can be ready Day 1 for the major parties to start work. Preferably I’d like early work to start now so we can construct it ASAP but do we have room for another 10 Billion announcement, I’m not so sure.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
According to Andrew Lund's twitter feed Acting Premier Pallas, on Jan 1st, has indicated Metro 2 is not happening due to higher priority needs elsewhere (no indication of what these needs are). You'll have to go back through his feed to Jan 1 to see this comment on this link Andrew Lund. Pallas did indicate that the transport needs of Fishermans Bend needs to be considered by the government.
Hopefully, PIMM and other poster, comments about a mid term announcement come true.


Neil
ngarner
OR
could be just be putting MM2 on the back burner for another decade, as explicitly stated "there are no plans...".

Fisermans Bend is just an add-on by some foamers to make the basic MM2 (Clifton Hill to SCS) look more attractive.

Looking after Fisherman's Bend itself is a lot simpler. A couple of new Light Rail lines and it's done at a fraction of the cost, with better passenger accessibility.

cheers
John



cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Fisermans Bend is just an add-on by some foamers to make the basic MM2 (Clifton Hill to SCS) look more attractive.
justarider

With respect, John, I think you've fundamentally misunderstood the calculus of MM2 with a comment like this.

Fisherman's Bend was included as a possible extension to the Clifton Hill - SCS tunnel in the 2012 PTV plan. It's worth remembering that this proposal envisioned a Doncaster line.

For the 2016 Infrastructure Victoria plan, someone realised that the benefits of a new tunnel could be expanded to the west. With Doncaster rail more or less off the table, it became clear that the western section was in fact possibly the only section required.

If the western section is ever to be built - and it will almost certainly be built before an eastern section is - it would be simply ludicrous not to include a station at Fisherman's Bend.

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