Border Rail Action Group says order for new North East trains should be in next year's Victorian budget

 

News article: Border Rail Action Group says order for new North East trains should be in next year's Victorian budget

VICTORIA’S Transport Minister Jacinta Allan and her Labor colleague Jaclyn Symes are continuing to insist they cannot order new trains for the North East line until design work is completed.

  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What is going to provide input to the decision on a rolling stock order ? 

We hope in Albury it is not smeg velocity sets and something better and more business and passenger friendly. 

Neither of these decisions would be dependent on the track upgrades would they

Border Rail Action Group says order for new North East trains should be in next year's Victorian budget

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  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Simples! convert it back to BG and the problem is solved!
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Simples! convert it back to BG and the problem is solved!
"Dangersdan707"
Did you hear the one about the bloke who nagged his girlfriend to death?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Simples! convert it back to BG and the problem is solved!
Dangersdan707
Did you hear the one about the bloke who nagged his girlfriend to death?
Valvegear
Her death or his?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?
bevans
Different coloured deckchairs perhaps?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

For the (n+1)th time, will someone please explain to me what is wrong with VLos? (Apart from the lack of catering, which is being sorted anyway.)
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
For the (n+1)th time, will someone please explain to me what is wrong with VLos? (Apart from the lack of catering, which is being sorted anyway.)
potatoinmymouth
Apparently they are noisy and the seats are no good. And N sets are heaps better. As someone who catches 2 Down Swan Hill services and 2 Up V/Locity services per week ATM I know which one I would rather be on from CME > Footscrazy and visa versa and it is not hauled by an N class.

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Apparently they are noisy and the seats are no good. And N sets are heaps better. As someone who catches 2 Down Swan Hill services and 2 Up V/Locity services per week ATM I know which one I would rather be on from CME > Footscrazy and visa versa and it is not hauled by an N class.
BrentonGolding

In furious agreement with you on this one BG. The VLos are as good as any comparable stock I’ve seen here or overseas, and made locally to boot.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Simples! convert it back to BG and the problem is solved!
Did you hear the one about the bloke who nagged his girlfriend to death?
Her death or his?
there is no need for a female partner when you have BG (the gauge not @BrentonGolding 's initials)
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

plus their older brothers in NSW travel significant distances and the ride is comfortable. Oh and they have a buffet.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
plus their older brothers in NSW travel significant distances and the ride is comfortable. Oh and they have a buffet.
simstrain
never doubted it. Velocities are going to be equipped with buffets as confirmed by RTBU (union) for long distance operations
  42101 A end Junior Train Controller

Try...RTBU
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
plus their older brothers in NSW travel significant distances and the ride is comfortable. Oh and they have a buffet.
never doubted it. Velocities are going to be equipped with buffets as confirmed by RTBU (union) for long distance operations
Dangersdan707
And Vlos are currently under design for SG bogies.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/work-starts-to-get-vlocity-trains-for-the-north-east-line/

Maybe extra sets, or maybe just SG version of the current order.
Long term all pax trains will be Vlo or the next generation of DMU

NE line will be getting SG Vlos with food/drink.

cheers
John
  A4000Bear Junior Train Controller

Location: Taradale, Vic
Apparently they are noisy and the seats are no good. And N sets are heaps better. As someone who catches 2 Down Swan Hill services and 2 Up V/Locity services per week ATM I know which one I would rather be on from CME > Footscrazy and visa versa and it is not hauled by an N class.

In furious agreement with you on this one BG. The VLos are as good as any comparable stock I’ve seen here or overseas, and made locally to boot.
potatoinmymouth
And I'm also in furious agreement. Before I retired a couple of years ago I used to travel each day between Malmsbury and Melbourne. Vlocity each morning and the Swan Hill train in the evening. Unfortunately I had little choice in the evening. it was the Swan Hill train or wait two hours for the next Malmsbury service. The N class economy was so uncomfortable that I even had other passengers comment on how uncomfortable I looked!

I guess there was a silver lining of a kind. While I almost always dozed off on the Vlocity (not a problem as I was going to Southern cross), I never did fall asleep on the N class, so I never missed my station.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
What is going to provide input to the decision on a rolling stock order ?

We hope in Albury it is not smeg velocity sets and something better and more business and passenger friendly.

Neither of these decisions would be dependent on the track upgrades would they

Border Rail Action Group says order for new North East trains should be in next year's Victorian budget
freightgate
Like what? The Velocity is the best train running on Victorian Metals and is suitable for Class 2 Track. If the Albury corridor was a high speed corridor with maximum speed of 200 km/h then maybe would could acquire something more sophisticated than the Velocity. But it isn't, so what is the point of ordering a totally new platform or build expensive locos and carriages for a corridor that has a maximum speed of 130 km/h.

The N Class carriages are basically shot.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?
bevans
The problems is not the Velocities, Bevans. It is that Victoria has far too much life expired rolling stock running on our rails. The H carriages and A and P locos should have been scrapped long ago. And we should be on the path of retiring N Class Locos and Carriages.

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?
bevans

You want club cars on the new trains... Question

Do you actually know what a club car is Question

These clowns who feel well qualified to comment on medium and long distance trains who clearly never travel on them.

As a long distance daily traveller, I'm with you BG.

Mike.
  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?

You want club cars on the new trains... Question

Do you actually know what a club car is Question

These clowns who feel well qualified to comment on medium and long distance trains who clearly never travel on them.

As a long distance daily traveller, I'm with you BG.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Long distance traveller? From Ballan? Under an hour to SC. Another pampered clown from the Ballarat line.
  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
plus their older brothers in NSW travel significant distances and the ride is comfortable. Oh and they have a buffet.
never doubted it. Velocities are going to be equipped with buffets as confirmed by RTBU (union) for long distance operations
Dangersdan707
Buffets like on the current Bairnsdale Velocity?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

plus their older brothers in NSW travel significant distances and the ride is comfortable. Oh and they have a buffet.
never doubted it. Velocities are going to be equipped with buffets as confirmed by RTBU (union) for long distance operations
Buffets like on the current Bairnsdale Velocity?
emmastreet
No one ever said the buffets would be on the Bairnsdale VLo at the start. There's reasonably solid information to suggest it's being done.

So, I repeat, what is wrong with the VLocity for long-distance travel?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?

You want club cars on the new trains... Question

Do you actually know what a club car is Question

These clowns who feel well qualified to comment on medium and long distance trains who clearly never travel on them.

As a long distance daily traveller, I'm with you BG.

Mike.
Long distance traveller? From Ballan? Under an hour to SC. Another pampered clown from the Ballarat line.
emmastreet

You conveniently forget the other place of my avatar which I regularly travel to...

Mike.
  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
It has been discussed Victoria is hell bent on a race to the bottom in terms of services offered on the network.  Even now Bairnsdale trains are now I blieve Vlocity sets without club or snack car.

Victoria is banking on Vlocity for the North East service upgrades because they know no better and the PTV are incredibly lazy.

If we know what is coming and the Minister has already said it will be a new design, then can they really be ordered before the new design is completed?

You want club cars on the new trains... Question

Do you actually know what a club car is Question

These clowns who feel well qualified to comment on medium and long distance trains who clearly never travel on them.

As a long distance daily traveller, I'm with you BG.

Mike.
Long distance traveller? From Ballan? Under an hour to SC. Another pampered clown from the Ballarat line.

You conveniently forget the other place of my avatar which I regularly travel to...

Mike.
The Vinelander
Well you said "..… long distance daily traveller".
  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
For the (n+1)th time, will someone please explain to me what is wrong with VLos? (Apart from the lack of catering, which is being sorted anyway.)
potatoinmymouth
I don't know what is wrong with Vlos but I don't think they are suitable for long distance travel and were not built for that purpose. Reading the V/line web site or "Incidents/Disruptions" thread there seems to be no end of Velocity services cancelled or running with reduced capacity so perhaps there is something wrong with them.
My choice of travel from Mooroopna to SC is 1st class in an N set. Plenty of room for baggage and bikes in the conductors compartment, some of us have more than a handbag or briefcase when we set out on our journey. Comfortable seats facing the direction of travel and a café bar but alas no club car.
I believe long distance train travel is there to be enjoyed. I'm not interested in travelling at 200kph just to save a few minutes.
V/line and the Government are trying to treat long distance passengers as commuters which we are not.
Of course just a personal opinion, hope you don't mind.
The catering is being sorted? Is it? We'll see. An election shortly.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

For the (n+1)th time, will someone please explain to me what is wrong with VLos? (Apart from the lack of catering, which is being sorted anyway.)
I don't know what is wrong with Vlos but I don't think they are suitable for long distance travel and were not built for that purpose. Reading the V/line web site or "Incidents/Disruptions" thread there seems to be no end of Velocity services cancelled or running with reduced capacity so perhaps there is something wrong with them.
My choice of travel from Mooroopna to SC is 1st class in an N set. Plenty of room for baggage and bikes in the conductors compartment, some of us have more than a handbag or briefcase when we set out on our journey. Comfortable seats facing the direction of travel and a café bar but alas no club car.
I believe long distance train travel is there to be enjoyed. I'm not interested in travelling at 200kph just to save a few minutes.
V/line and the Government are trying to treat long distance passengers as commuters which we are not.
Of course just a personal opinion, hope you don't mind.
The catering is being sorted? Is it? We'll see. An election shortly.
emmastreet
Well I do appreciate the opinion as it's much more informative than vague remarks.

Taking things point by point(ish):
  • VLos are slightly less reliable than coaching stock (this makes sense as they have lots of extra things that can fail!) but substantially more reliable than the N Class, on account of their three engines per set. The reason they account for most cancellations is simply because they run more services than the rest of the fleet by far. As far as I can see a DMU is a much superior option for the longer routes as an enroute failure won't necessarily mean the termination of the service at some two-horse town and a long wait for buses.
  • I've never understood why some people place a very high importance on facing forward, but I suppose it's a personal thing. Of course it should be noted that all VLo seats are the of the same or better dimensions as N set first class seats (and I don't find them at all uncomfortable, but again, probably a personal thing. You can't please everyone.) I think a view to introducing a first class on long-haul sets would be desirable, and that could include rotating seats.
  • If the powers that be had any sense they would absolutely be building a conductor's compartment into the long-haul variant. I agree that there is a definite need for luggage and bike space on journeys over about 2 hours. Unfortunately it strikes me as unlikely.
  • Catering is an obvious need and I've expressed skepticism as well about whether there is actually any commitment, although putting together the pieces of V/Line's comments to the union, a mid-October government press release, and the Opposition's clearly stated policy on the issue, I think it probably passes the balance of probabilities. Again, in my opinion it's not the end of the world for it not to be there, but certainly it's easier to convince people to make longer journeys by train if some amenities are in place.
  • Most rational people are not interest in saving a few minutes. Unfortunately the Opposition (and government, to a lesser extent) have failed to learn the lessons of the RFR and have decided that faster is preferable to a higher quality of service. There is an obvious advantage, however, to having long-distance stock that is capable of similar speeds to interurban stock where they are sharing tracks, from a timetabling perspective.
  • I think a distinction has to be drawn between "treating long distance passengers like commuters" and prioritising the needs of commuters. However, I think it's clear that both are occurring here to an extent: the former because of a lack of organisational nouse in V/Line (if the Auditor-General can recognise a need for at least three types of stock, so should a railway company for heavens' sake) , and the latter because of the deep politicisation of infrastructure funding and railway operations in general.


To sum up a bit, I think the VLos are a solid platform that will be more than suitable for long-distance travel in the medium-term future, but they will definitely need some modifications. I believe, however, that this can be achieved without starting from scratch (and as the NSW XPT replacement should show, there's a ridiculously long lead time on this stuff, probably too long for anyone to be trapped in an N set Smile ).

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