Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Where is it set in stone that travellers from current Vline served regions are entitled to an uninterrupted journey into the city?
ZH836301

Add “entitled to a seat, even for journeys less than 45 minutes” to that.

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  Carnot Minister for Railways

I think we need to factor in what the Govt plan to do with the Suburban Rail Loop too:
- Will that be BG or SG?
- Will the SRL and Airport rail link share tracks?  (Congestion could start to be a factor now)
- Will NE regional lines use SRL and/or Airport rail link?  i.e. Outbound regional trains take a left turn at Broadmeadows?

And on top of that - integration with future HSR?

Thus I think capacity constraints will be the main reason why Bendigo V/line services will remain BG and via Watergardens/Sunbury for decades to come...
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Why should we bring VLine commuter services down to the lowest common denominator. We should be building up our express services from the outer regions.
Do Vline users pay the fares to make such services sustainable?

Where is it set in stone that travellers from current Vline served regions are entitled to an uninterrupted journey into the city?
ZH836301
If you would like UK style fares and empty trains be my guest.

If you ran an Express and a SAS service to Geelong (for example), there would be a fare difference between the two (Say, the current price for SAS and double that for the express), then I think both services would be well patronised.

Again, why are we bringing services down to the lowest common denominator. We have the opportunity for Frankston, Dandenong, Western Port, Warrigal, Ringwood, Wallan, Ballarat, Bendigo, Airport + Geelong to be an express service into the city on dedicated tracks. That's a network of its own right there.

Where is it set in stone that travellers from current Metro old zone 3 regions are entitled to 1.5hour plus journeys into the city?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Why should we bring VLine commuter services down to the lowest common denominator. We should be building up our express services from the outer regions.
Do Vline users pay the fares to make such services sustainable?

Where is it set in stone that travellers from current Vline served regions are entitled to an uninterrupted journey into the city?
ZH836301

Fares have nothing to do with it.

The plan is to quad to Melton, sparks City to Melton, eventually Bacchus Marsh due to extra stabling space and a growing locality and operate off peak Ballarat's express from Bacchus Marsh or Melton to Sunshine or vice versa.

The sparks will take care of the stations between Melton and Sunshine.

The idea is to encourage decentralisation of the state and further take up of V/Line travel...not to choke the rail system and consequently slow it down with unnecessary stops.

Mike.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

Fares have nothing to do with it.

The plan is to quad to Melton, sparks City to Melton, eventually Bacchus Marsh due to extra stabling space and a growing locality and operate off peak Ballarat's express from Bacchus Marsh or Melton to Sunshine or vice versa.

The sparks will take care of the stations between Melton and Sunshine.

The idea is to encourage decentralisation of the state and further take up of V/Line travel...not to choke the rail system and consequently slow it down with unnecessary stops.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Ditto for the Wyndham Vale sparks.

cheers
John
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I think we need to factor in what the Govt plan to do with the Suburban Rail Loop too:
Carnot

Well it doesn't really matter, since it will never be built.

Like Rowville and Doncaster it will gather dust in the bottom of a filing cabinet where it belongs.


If you would like UK style fares and empty trains be my guest.
John.Z

Not what I've seen over there.


If you ran an Express and a SAS service to Geelong (for example), there would be a fare difference between the two (Say, the current price for SAS and double that for the express), then I think both services would be well patronised.
John.Z

CITY > Fish1 > Fish2 > "NP" > Lav > WL > HC > "WERRIBEE" > LR > Lara > Corio > NS > NG > "GEELONG"

Even with all stops the journey time would be more than acceptable - consider, any express service would ideally stop at Werribee and Newport, so any express service is only skipping five metro stops between Werribee and the city, and five between Werribee and Geelong.  The cost of providing any extra trackwork would be prohibitive relative to the benefits, so any sort of express services on a dual track line are going to impact negatively against the possible capacity of the line from Werribee to the city.  So whilst one could skip the Werribee-Geelong stops without impacting capacity, the five minutes saved skipping stations between the city and Werribee would not be worth the reduction in potential service frequency between Werribee and the city.  

One must remember too, wait time is always a factor in overall journey time, and any savings in trip time for express services can be negatively offset by increased wait time due to a reduction in service frequency.  Hence simply running all services as stopping all stations, say every 5 minutes to Werribee with every 3rd-4th service continuing to Geelong, is going to offer better journey times for most than running every 10 minutes to Werribee, with Geelong services saving 5min by expressing through those suburban stops.


Again, why are we bringing services down to the lowest common denominator. We have the opportunity for Frankston, Dandenong, Western Port, Warrigal, Ringwood, Wallan, Ballarat, Bendigo, Airport + Geelong to be an express service into the city on dedicated tracks. That's a network of its own right there.
John.Z

When the time savings for running express services are not substantial, but heavily restrict suburban capacity, then the capacity side will always win.


The plan is to quad to Melton, sparks City to Melton, eventually Bacchus Marsh due to extra stabling space and a growing locality and operate off peak Ballarat's express from Bacchus Marsh or Melton to Sunshine or vice versa.
Whinelander

Quad to Melton would not be worth it when there will be max five stops between Deer Park and Melton.

There is no justification to spend billions quadding to Melton to save Ballarat travellers five minutes when their journey time is already well below that of many outer suburban destinations which will never see any express service.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Quad to Melton would not be worth it when there will be max five stops between Deer Park and Melton.
ZH the obtuse said...

6.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Re - Quadding to Melton, nothing wrong with it, reservation should be in place now so that development doesn’t screw it up.

Melton will have its own electrified Line and will run probably via MM1. There will be future high speed rail, freight as well as the normal Maryborough/Ararat lines running through, possibly even Hamilton and Horsham. Would reduce delays, improve frequency, improve time, segregate VLine and Metro, all big benefits.

Should be done, as should Caulfield to Dandenong Quadding, Triplication to Mordialloc, Duplication to Lilydale, Duplication to Upper Ferntree Gully, Duplication to Roxbrough Park via Upfield, Wyndham Vale Quadding, Box Hill Quadding, Richmond To Burnley Sextuplication and Clifton Hill Triplication.

Segregating VLine and Metro is a must, improving journey times and providing express services is what we need. It will be fun when it comes to Sunshine to Sunbury Quadruplication
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Segregation is only partly about journey times. Everyone needs to get over their obsessions with that.

Segregation means more reliable timetabling, more capacity and less overall disruption when incidents occur.

We need to make sure that overall quality of service - including all of the above mentioned characteristics - to the “commuter belt” cities doesn’t decline over the next decade, in order to make best use of these routes as incentives for decentralisation.

I don’t expect to convince ZH on this, as he seems staunchly opposed to the doctrine of supply-led planning for transport, but it’s the reality. Segregation is a big part of making it work for Victoria.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

If you ran an Express and a SAS service to Geelong (for example), there would be a fare difference between the two (Say, the current price for SAS and double that for the express), then I think both services would be well patronised.

CITY > Fish1 > Fish2 > "NP" > Lav > WL > HC > "WERRIBEE" > LR > Lara > Corio > NS > NG > "GEELONG"

Even with all stops the journey time would be more than acceptable - consider, any express service would ideally stop at Werribee and Newport, so any express service is only skipping five metro stops between Werribee and the city, and five between Werribee and Geelong.  The cost of providing any extra trackwork would be prohibitive relative to the benefits, so any sort of express services on a dual track line are going to impact negatively against the possible capacity of the line from Werribee to the city.  So whilst one could skip the Werribee-Geelong stops without impacting capacity, the five minutes saved skipping stations between the city and Werribee would not be worth the reduction in potential service frequency between Werribee and the city.  

One must remember too, wait time is always a factor in overall journey time, and any savings in trip time for express services can be negatively offset by increased wait time due to a reduction in service frequency.  Hence simply running all services as stopping all stations, say every 5 minutes to Werribee with every 3rd-4th service continuing to Geelong, is going to offer better journey times for most than running every 10 minutes to Werribee, with Geelong services saving 5min by expressing through those suburban stops.
ZH836301
The point is, you wouldn't stop the train between Geelong and Melbourne, if you wanted that service you get on the SAS service. You run HSR like in europe where each major city gets one stop, and the local network fills the gap. For the northern suburbs of Geelong it might be faster to get the SAS service to Melbourne, but for those in Waurn Ponds, it would be faster but more expensive to get the HSR from Geelong.

Express: City > Geelong
SAS: CITY > Fish1 > Fish2 > "NP" > Lav > AC> WL > HC > DM > "WERRIBEE" > WM >  LR > Lara > Corio > NS > NG > "GEELONG"
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
6.
Whinelander
Well...

-Sunshine
-Ardeer
-Deer Park
-Caroline Springs
-Deanside (east Hopkins Rd)
-Rockbank
-Thornhill Park (west Mt Cottrell Rd)
-Cobblebank/Toolern (west Ferris Rd)
-Melton

Counts five.


Melton will have its own electrified Line and will run probably via MM1. There will be future high speed rail, freight as well as the normal Maryborough/Ararat lines running through, possibly even Hamilton and Horsham. Would reduce delays, improve frequency, improve time, segregate VLine and Metro, all big benefits.
ptvcommuter

Benefit does not justify expense.


Should be done, as should Caulfield to Dandenong Quadding, Triplication to Mordialloc, Duplication to Lilydale, Duplication to Upper Ferntree Gully, Duplication to Roxbrough Park via Upfield, Wyndham Vale Quadding, Box Hill Quadding, Richmond To Burnley Sextuplication and Clifton Hill Triplication.  

Segregating VLine and Metro is a must, improving journey times and providing express services is what we need. It will be fun when it comes to Sunshine to Sunbury Quadruplication
ptvcommuter

Apart from duplication of all single track sections, only Caulfield-Dandenong quadding is justified.

The other routes aren't long enough to justify express services, with station rationalisation being more appropriate (for example, East Camberwell, Chatham and Mont Albert are worth closing to decrease Ringwood journey times).  Frankston express can be catered for via a link from Dandenong, and a link from Campbellfield to the Airport (Broadmeadows and Gladstone Park) is a more appropriate terminus for the Upfield line (giving rapid journeys to the airport for northern suburbia linking through with east-west buses or the Craigieburn line.  For the Bendigo line, a link from the airport to the line north of Sunbury would be far less expensive than quadding to Sunbury (as well as enabling use of SG).

The Metro/Vline split is outdated - I don't see much difference between outer suburban and regional areas.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner



Melton will have its own electrified Line and will run probably via MM1. There will be future high speed rail, freight as well as the normal Maryborough/Ararat lines running through, possibly even Hamilton and Horsham. Would reduce delays, improve frequency, improve time, segregate VLine and Metro, all big benefits.

Benefit does not justify expense.


Should be done, as should Caulfield to Dandenong Quadding, Triplication to Mordialloc, Duplication to Lilydale, Duplication to Upper Ferntree Gully, Duplication to Roxbrough Park via Upfield, Wyndham Vale Quadding, Box Hill Quadding, Richmond To Burnley Sextuplication and Clifton Hill Triplication.  

Segregating VLine and Metro is a must, improving journey times and providing express services is what we need. It will be fun when it comes to Sunshine to Sunbury Quadruplication

Apart from duplication of all single track sections, only Caulfield-Dandenong quadding is justified.

The other routes aren't long enough to justify express services, with station rationalisation being more appropriate (for example, East Camberwell, Chatham and Mont Albert are worth closing to decrease Ringwood journey times).  Frankston express can be catered for via a link from Dandenong, and a link from Campbellfield to the Airport (Broadmeadows and Gladstone Park) is a more appropriate terminus for the Upfield line (giving rapid journeys to the airport for northern suburbia linking through with east-west buses or the Craigieburn line.  For the Bendigo line, a link from the airport to the line north of Sunbury would be far less expensive than quadding to Sunbury (as well as enabling use of SG).

The Metro/Vline split is outdated - I don't see much difference between outer suburban and regional areas.
Thank god you are not in transport planing, your responses are shockers!

The Benefit does justify the expense, that is why the call it a "cost benefit analysis"

Segregation of mixed traffic is of the highest order. The government plans to build HSR to Ballarat. Quad is 100% need, no way to get around this. SAS services to the Burbs do not mix will with express country services running at 200km+! "The Metor/VLine split" is need now as much as it was when RRL was being planned.

Id love to here "outdated" when your express service from Ballarat is delayed because its stuck behind a late running or faulty metro service. Good bye HSR for the sake of saving a few pennies.

Furthermore, as much as I would like to agree with some of your suggestions, they just do not gel at all with the publics expectations or the political climate we have. Station closures will never happen. Your handing a weapon to the public and opposition to beat you with. Even more, the stations you have listed above all sit within the middle ring on Melbourne. Like it or not, these areas will see increased development over the next 10 years. Governments should be looking at ways to increase density around station not close them.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The Quadruplication to Melton starts from Sunshine, not Deer park.

So will mean potentially skipping 7 stops. 3 stops existing, 2 stops are relatively new, and 3 potential stops.
-Ardeer (existing)
-Deer Park (existing)
-Caroline Springs (opened in 2016)
-Deanside (potential)
-Rockbank (existing)
-Thornhill Park (potential)
-Cobblebank/Toolern (opens in 2019)

Benefit would be worth it, as the Geelong line also shares the track with the Ballarat line.

Quadruplication is planned for Geelong, btw Wydnham vale and Sunshine. It will potential mean also skipping 7 stops. 2 existing, 2 stops are relatively new, and 3 potential stops.
-Ardeer (existing)
-Deer Park (existing)
-Truganina (potential)
-Tarniet (opened in 2015)
-Tarniet west (potential)
-Sayers Road (potential)
-Wydnham Vale (opened in 2015)
-Blackforest Road (potential)

As you can see that the west is growing as they add station through regional lines and the services need to catch up with the development there. The regional services in the west are now catching many outer suburbs which should of received a metro service ages ago. Yeah electrifying the lines while still keeping the mixed regional services with metro service with up to 7 stops on both Geelong and Ballarat lines are gonna put major delays on the 2 busiest regional lines and restrict the number of Wyndham Vale and Melton services.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

The other routes aren't long enough to justify express services, with station rationalisation being more appropriate (for example, East Camberwell, Chatham and Mont Albert are worth closing to decrease Ringwood journey times).  ...
ZH836301
Now where did you get the idea that there is no express on the Ringwood line.

Peak trains UP (6am - 9:30am) and DOWN (3pm - 7pm) mostly run express between Richmond and Box Hiil.
Some with intermediate stops at Glenferrie(Swinburne), Camberwell , Surrey Hills.
Plus about 1/2 the middle of the day are express.

The only ones that stop at East Camberwell, Chatham and Mont Albert are the
SAS trains between Blackburn and Flinders St (about every 4th peak train).
And that is on the SAS track. The expresses have their own track and continually overtake the SAS.

Rationalise, Journey time, balderdash.

john
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.

The other routes aren't long enough to justify express services, with station rationalisation being more appropriate (for example, East Camberwell, Chatham and Mont Albert are worth closing to decrease Ringwood journey times).  ...Now where did you get the idea that there is no express on the Ringwood line.

Peak trains UP (6am - 9:30am) and DOWN (3pm - 7pm) mostly run express between Richmond and Box Hiil.
Some with intermediate stops at Glenferrie(Swinburne), Camberwell , Surrey Hills.
Plus about 1/2 the middle of the day are express.

The only ones that stop at East Camberwell, Chatham and Mont Albert are the
SAS trains between Blackburn and Flinders St (about every 4th peak train).
And that is on the SAS track. The expresses have their own track and continually overtake the SAS.

Rationalise, Journey time, balderdash.

john
justarider
You may wish to consider rereading that...
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Justarider, ZH is suggesting that the Belgrave and Lilydale lines are not longer enough to warrant an express service.

He wants to scrap the all stopping services and remove the least patronised stations for maximise efficiency. Unfortunately this would mean many people current travel plans would be changed, it's quite a bold move but will never come into existence.

Removing Aircraft station is on ZH's agenda. Removing the Altona loop and Williamstown branch is also on ZH's agenda.

I pointed out that Aircraft serves the area of Santuary Lakes to the south and the RAAF base to the north, which could become future development. ZH's argument why not build a station at Boardwalk Blv, it is close to the Point cook town centre, and yes that would be another goood location where a station that could be added.

Now for the Altona loop and Williamstown, replacing the area with buses would not be acceptable to those communities and not help out tourism in the area. Buses are much less appealing than a single track railway. Anyways those branches actually are helping the Werribee line. They are acting as short starters picking up passengers between Laverton and the City, and allow the Werribee line express through and allow the stopping services take the rest of the loading. I take the Werribee line plenty of times during peak times, no seats after Williams Landing, and crowded when it passes Laverton. I'm glad that the Altona branch and Williamstown lines exist so they can take the people who can't fit past Newport.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Justarider, ZH is suggesting that the Belgrave and Lilydale lines are not longer enough to warrant an express service.

He wants to scrap the all stopping services and remove the least patronised stations for maximise efficiency. Unfortunately this would mean many people current travel plans would be changed, it's quite a bold move but will never come into existence.
True Believers
"not long enough to warrant". Let's just measure.

Belgrave to SCS EXPRESS = 1:00 hr, SAS = 1:13 hrs
Lilydale to   SCS EXPRESS = 0:55 hr, SAS = 1:02 hrs
Geelong  to SCS = 1:01 hr

FFS ? make the Belgrave trip (38km) and Lilydale (39km) take more time than Geelong (77km)

All 3 are packed to the gills during peak, and ZH wants to make it worse !! aaargh!!!

Belgrave is already the longest metro run to SCS (Dandy 50min, Frank 57min, Craigie 43min, Mernda 58min, Hurst 60min)

PS: Ballarat 1:22hr 115km, pretty close to the Belgrave time for 3 times the distance.

And as usual ZH has misdirected our attention from the topic of this thread.
When do we go to the Airport on the Belgrave line ??

cheers
John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

An option for the Airport Line potentially ?


Sandringham to Airport & Williamstown Line

- Trains Every 10 Minutes (6 TPH) during the Off Peak/Weekends and Every 5 Minutes (12 TPH) during Peak Hour on the Sandringham Line

- Trains Every 10 Minutes (6 TPH) all day to the Airport

- Trains Every 15 Minutes (4 TPH) during Off Peak/Weekends and Every 10 Minutes (6 TPH) during Peak Hour on the Williamstown Line

- Some Services would terminate at South Yarra

This would benefit commuters as the Sandringham and Williamstown Lines would have more services. The Siemens Trains can be used for these lines, some with luggage holders for the Airport which would mean no massive changes needed and a crossover could be built so that trains could terminate at South Yarra.

This would directly connect to all lines on our network to the Airport Line instead of terminating at Southern Cross which frees up platforms, gives passengers better connections and makes the Airport Line intergerate into our current network
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

An option for the Airport Line potentially ? Sandringham to Airport & Williamstown Line - Trains Every 10 Minutes (6 TPH) during the Off Peak/Weekends and Every 5 Minutes (12 TPH) during Peak Hour on the Sandringham Line - Trains Every 10 Minutes (6 TPH) all day to the Airport - Trains Every 15 Minutes (4 TPH) during Off Peak/Weekends and Every 10 Minutes (6 TPH) during Peak Hour on the Williamstown Line - Some Services would terminate at South Yarra This would benefit commuters as the Sandringham and Williamstown Lines would have more services. The Siemens Trains can be used for these lines, some with luggage holders for the Airport which would mean no massive changes needed and a crossover could be built so that trains could terminate at South Yarra. This would directly connect to all lines on our network to the Airport Line instead of terminating at Southern Cross which frees up platforms, gives passengers better connections and makes the Airport Line intergerate into our current network
ptvcommuter
I've always been a fan of the airport line being a metro line, rather than effectively a shuttle. Initially, I'd be happy with a Craigieburn to Southern Cross via airport service. However, in the very long term, a tunnel for the Craigieburn (via Essendon) line to perhaps the Rowville line through the city would allow both the airport line to operate via the City Loop (for an excellent connection between effectively all trains and parts of the CBD to the airport) and the Frankston line to run via the City Loop (for political reasons). We shall call this metro 3. It will be financed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster (I do not mean to offend any Pastafarians).
  True Believers Chief Commissioner
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Why does the intro sound like it has been done by a cabin crew member on a Jetstar flight?
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
"The airport is working hard to keep pace".....

Really???
Do you have a rail link to the capital??
No, WTF. WTF. WTF. WTF!!!

It's 2018, so what deluded planet do these Ftards live on???

Seriously, where's the job opening for smeg like this??

Admittedly I did enjoy the laugh.
Sad part is Melbourne Airport is still beyond a joke despite being stuck in the 1990s. That said, Sydney was Fcked domestically until it copied the Melbourne 1970s idea of a grade separation of arrivals and departures on domestic. Since then, the tables have turned massively away from Melbournes favour, whereby everything you hear on relation to the airport has someone "I call BS" as a response.
The fact it happens on a weekly/daily basis does NOT mean it's not a valid gripe!!

Regards
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Apparently there's a news story on the Herald Sun (behind the paywall) of an agreement between the Feds and State Govt on the route.

Can anyone enlighten us on details?

And yes, the Airport is a disgrace at present. Endless carparks, dropoff and pickup is a disaster, and the facilities arr all very tired as they try to play catch-up.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Apparently there's a news story on the Herald Sun (behind the paywall) of an agreement between the Feds and State Govt on the route.

Can anyone enlighten us on details?

And yes, the Airport is a disgrace at present. Endless carparks, dropoff and pickup is a disaster, and the facilities arr all very tired as they try to play catch-up.
Carnot
Here's the "Age" take on it:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-airport-rail-link-federal-government-backs-sunshine-route-20181120-p50h9k.html
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Apparently there's a news story on the Herald Sun (behind the paywall) of an agreement between the Feds and State Govt on the route.

Can anyone enlighten us on details?

And yes, the Airport is a disgrace at present. Endless carparks, dropoff and pickup is a disaster, and the facilities arr all very tired as they try to play catch-up.
Here's the "Age" take on it:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-airport-rail-link-federal-government-backs-sunshine-route-20181120-p50h9k.html
chomper
Not surprised.  And good to hear it's going to go via Sunshine..  Makes sense.

The big question will be whether the line is operational before any tunnel/skyrail is built between SCS and Sunshine.  And whether BG or SG.  Show us the business case Dan!

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