Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG3yQGSODHU
True Believers
among all the waffle is a little gem. Freeze frame at 5:59

Melbourne Airport are actually advocating Seymour/Shepparton rail via the Airport.

Say what you like about the quality of the airport, but rail does need friends with some big clout.

cheers
John

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  Carnot Minister for Railways



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG3yQGSODHU
among all the waffle is a little gem. Freeze frame at 5:59

Melbourne Airport are actually advocating Seymour/Shepparton rail via the Airport.

Say what you like about the quality of the airport, but rail does need friends with some big clout.

cheers
John
justarider
Note that the dotted line goes Seymour - Shepparton - to Sydney.  Cough... Intercity High Speed Rail.... Cough.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
among all the waffle is a little gem. Freeze frame at 5:59

Melbourne Airport are actually advocating Seymour/Shepparton rail via the Airport.

Say what you like about the quality of the airport, but rail does need friends with some big clout.

cheers
John
Note that the dotted line goes Seymour - Shepparton - to Sydney.  Cough... Intercity High Speed Rail.... Cough.
Carnot
Where/type of train goes after the Airport station is immaterial.
The point is that Melbourne Airport see a future for regional trains through the airport. A good thing.

cheers
John
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Where/type of train goes after the Airport station is immaterial.
The point is that Melbourne Airport see a future for regional trains through the airport. A good thing.

cheers
John
justarider
It's not that surprising really. If I was Melbourne Airport I would want:
  • As many trains from as many places as possible bringing people to my Airport
  • Somebody else to pay for it
Some careful lobbying of the right people on their part and they might have all their wishes come true without having to delve into their deep, deep, parking funded pockets.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Apparently there's a news story on the Herald Sun (behind the paywall) of an agreement between the Feds and State Govt on the route.

Can anyone enlighten us on details?

And yes, the Airport is a disgrace at present. Endless carparks, dropoff and pickup is a disaster, and the facilities arr all very tired as they try to play catch-up.
Carnot

Personally...I wouldn't know. I only ever arrive there by PT and have far more sense than to drive or park there.

Mike.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Apparently there's a news story on the Herald Sun (behind the paywall) of an agreement between the Feds and State Govt on the route.

Can anyone enlighten us on details?

And yes, the Airport is a disgrace at present. Endless carparks, dropoff and pickup is a disaster, and the facilities arr all very tired as they try to play catch-up.
Here's the "Age" take on it:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-airport-rail-link-federal-government-backs-sunshine-route-20181120-p50h9k.html
chomper
And now Aunties'

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/airport-rail-link-route-via-sunshine-gets-approval-from-canberra

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

It's not that surprising really. If I was Melbourne Airport I would want:
As many trains from as many places as possible bringing people to my Airport
Somebody else to pay for it
Some careful lobbying of the right people on their part and they might have all their wishes come true without having to delve into their deep, deep, parking funded pockets.
LeroyW

On the contrary to me they appear prepared to put their money where their mouth is - they’ve been proactive since the 2013 Master Plan in getting the airport link on the agenda and are part of the consortium which launched a market-led proposal a couple of months ago.
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
Imagine how proactive they'd be if the State Govt introduced a parking space surcharge like City of Melbourne has done to buildings in the CBD...

Regards
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
Imagine how proactive they'd be if the State Govt introduced a parking space surcharge like City of Melbourne has done to buildings in the CBD...

Regards
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

"But they [the airport trains] would not be competing with metropolitan or regional trains"
I hope that this is not the case, because what a great waste of money it would be to spend billions on a tunnel only to see it being used by services every 10 minutes!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
"But they [the airport trains] would not be competing with metropolitan or regional trains"
I hope that this is not the case, because what a great waste of money it would be to spend billions on a tunnel only to see it being used by services every 10 minutes!
reubstar6
They might not be talking about the tracks, they may be referring to the trains themselves ie that they won't take suburban or regional pax? It would be very odd if indeed it was only used for 6 TPH! And how does that tie in with it being part of the SRL as the article also claims? Or with Seymour / Shepp line services running via the Airport as has been suggested before by Government and others.

Very odd but then the article is pretty light, just an assembly of quotes from various sources with no real understanding of the topic.

BG
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

"But they [the airport trains] would not be competing with metropolitan or regional trains" I hope that this is not the case, because what a great waste of money it would be to spend billions on a tunnel only to see it being used by services every 10 minutes!
reubstar6


Isn’t the plan was for the High Speed Geelong and Ballarat Line Trains To Run on the same tracks as the 6 TPH Airport Line. Think the tracks would be underground, how would HSR Trains running 250km/h travel underground though ?
  chomper Junior Train Controller

I still think it would be better to run the airport rail link via Essendon Fields, Highpoint/(ADF) and Footscray rather than running it via Scumshine.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

I still think it would be better to run the airport rail link via Essendon Fields, Highpoint/(ADF) and Footscray rather than running it via Scumshine
chomper


15 Billion seems like a ridiculous, inflated price tag. The Airport Line via Albion used to be costed at around 3 Billion. And I know it is going to be underground from South Kensington to Sunshine and then on to the Airport and will share tracks with Geelong/Ballarat HSR but this is inflated.

At least with the Maribyrnong and Flemington option, it gives you a direct, quick service to the city. It also unlocks the potential for stations at Victoria University, Maribyrnong, Highpoint and Victoria University, all areas that have poor PT. This suburban Rail Loop can cover the Albion line portion as it is travelling via sunshine and on to the Airport, probably via a few new stations. There’s you regional connectivity.

It is absurd to have Airport and SRL running both via Sunshine. You would need to Quadruplicate the Albion line and tunnel into Tullamarine, 2 for Airport and 2 for SRL (would have 20-30 TPH). Then you have to factor in the freight that travels along the Albion corridor.

Can electrified 250-300km/h trains run underground, especially when the Geelong/Ballarat Future HSR is set to share the same tracks as the Airport Line ? Why can’t you use the current RRL tracks, they could fit 8 TPH Waurn Ponds HSR, 5 TPH Wendouree and the other Bendigo Line Services all on the current tracks with a bit of high capacity signalling. Problem is then you have to fit Melton and WV Electrification into the project as well, Melton could travel via MM1 but what about WV ?

Many airport lines have stations along the way, there are express, direct to the airport and stopping all Stations to the airport. Athens, London, etc all have this and it works well. Building an airport line while providing a reliable service for those in Maribyrnong and Victoria University will work very well
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I still think it would be better to run the airport rail link via Essendon Fields, Highpoint/(ADF) and Footscray rather than running it via Scumshine.
chomper
We already have a hub and spoke rail system with very little connectivity that isn't in the centre of the city. Adding another spoke doesn't help with this.

Connecting via Sunshine allows people from the West to change there, relieving pressure from the heart of the network.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I still think it would be better to run the airport rail link via Essendon Fields, Highpoint/(ADF) and Footscray rather than running it via Scumshine


15 Billion seems like a ridiculous, inflated price tag. The Airport Line via Albion used to be costed at around 3 Billion. And I know it is going to be underground from South Kensington to Sunshine and then on to the Airport and will share tracks with Geelong/Ballarat HSR but this is inflated.

At least with the Maribyrnong and Flemington option, it gives you a direct, quick service to the city. It also unlocks the potential for stations at Victoria University, Maribyrnong, Highpoint and Victoria University, all areas that have poor PT. This suburban Rail Loop can cover the Albion line portion as it is travelling via sunshine and on to the Airport, probably via a few new stations. There’s you regional connectivity.

It is absurd to have Airport and SRL running both via Sunshine. You would need to Quadruplicate the Albion line and tunnel into Tullamarine, 2 for Airport and 2 for SRL (would have 20-30 TPH). Then you have to factor in the freight that travels along the Albion corridor.

Can electrified 250-300km/h trains run underground, especially when the Geelong/Ballarat Future HSR is set to share the same tracks as the Airport Line ? Why can’t you use the current RRL tracks, they could fit 8 TPH Waurn Ponds HSR, 5 TPH Wendouree and the other Bendigo Line Services all on the current tracks with a bit of high capacity signalling. Problem is then you have to fit Melton and WV Electrification into the project as well, Melton could travel via MM1 but what about WV ?

Many airport lines have stations along the way, there are express, direct to the airport and stopping all Stations to the airport. Athens, London, etc all have this and it works well. Building an airport line while providing a reliable service for those in Maribyrnong and Victoria University will work very well
ptvcommuter
$15 billion is $5bil from state, $5bil from Federal, $5bil from a private consortium (Air Rail Melbourne) - that's only one proposal, it mightn't need the private cash or cost the state/federal governments $10 bil to construction the line ($10 bil might include doing other works like quadruplicating Sunshine to Deer Park and Deer Park to Wyndham Vale as well as the airport line) - we just don't know.  And the way you've cast dispersions on the very very very limited information available on the project(s)... seriously.

IF the MARL is going to be a dedicated set of tracks with tunnels from North->West Melbourne/South Kensington, as long as the power system, gauge / loading gauge is consistent, the higher speed trains for Geelong and Ballarat - whatever they may be - could very easily share tracks.  But 300kph?  just forget about it, by the time the trains had reached 300kph on a run to Geelong they'd need to be decelerating.

so many moving parts, far too early to make a judgement.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

So going by all of this sunshine route, is it Quadruplication to the airport - two for SRL and two for Airport/Future VLine. Otherwise the route is ridiculous and should tunnel via maribyrnong with SRL taking the Sunshine Route.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

So going by all of this sunshine route, is it Quadruplication to the airport - two for SRL and two for Airport/Future VLine. Otherwise the route is ridiculous and should tunnel via maribyrnong with SRL taking the Sunshine Route.
ptvcommuter

As I've said many times, people are making their own assumptions what the route would take and how many track there will be. Here is what is confirmed, and the rest may be gathered in the business case:

Western half:
-> A set of new tracks linked between Werribee and Blackforest station
-> RRL will be likely to be quad from Blackforest station all the way to Deerpark.
-> Quadding of the Melton line

There would be 2 services using the express tracks: Geelong (3-6TPH), Ballarat (3-6TPH)
There would be 3 services running on the electrified track: Wydnham-City (6-10TPH), Melton-City (6-10TPH), SRL (6-10TPH)

Quadding the btw Sunshine and Airport isn't confirmed but also unlikely.

Cause only 3 possible service would use that section. Airport-City (6-10TPH), SRL (6-10TPH), Bendigo & Seymour lines (6TPH)

26TPH which is the max amount is capable on high capacity track, trains running every 2 minutes. No need for quadding between Airport and Sunshine.

The express tunnel option through to the city, I'd admit I used to support. But overall it's expensive and only saves a few minutes and adds stations in areas already well served by tram. Only area that desperately needs a station is Kelior East and that could be added using the Albion alignment. Having said that, the western section towards sunshine needs the extra capacity for more regional services & the new electric services.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

As I've said many times, people are making their own assumptions what the route would take and how many track there will be. Here is what is confirmed, and the rest may be gathered in the business case: Western half: -> A set of new tracks linked between Werribee and Blackforest station -> RRL will be likely to be quad from Blackforest station all the way to Deerpark. -> Quadding of the Melton line There would be 2 services using the express tracks: Geelong (3-6TPH), Ballarat (3-6TPH) There would be 3 services running on the electrified track: Wydnham-City (6-10TPH), Melton-City (6-10TPH), SRL (6-10TPH) Quadding the btw Sunshine and Airport isn't confirmed but also unlikely. Cause only 3 possible service would use that section. Airport-City (6-10TPH), SRL (6-10TPH), Bendigo & Seymour lines (6TPH) 26TPH which is the max amount is capable on high capacity track, trains running every 2 minutes. No need for quadding between Airport and Sunshine. The express tunnel option through to the city, I'd admit I used to support. But overall it's expensive and only saves a few minutes and adds stations in areas already well served by tram. Only area that desperately needs a station is Kelior East and that could be added using the Albion alignment. Having said that, the western section towards sunshine needs the extra capacity for more regional services & the new electric services.
True Believers


SRL certainly won’t be 6-10 TPH when/if Completed try double that (20-30 TPH)
Bendigo and Seymour plus airport equals 12 TPH, guess the SRL will have to go via somewhere else
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I think Shepparton will be converted to SG before the Seymour line is diverted via the Airport. If Shepp goes SG, this basically leaves Wallan-Seymour as a short BG service, which could be operated as a shuttle like Stony Point, with onwards transfers either via Metro or the express V/Line services. I could see Albury and Shepparton trains on SG via the Airport, or at least the current alignment. I don't think Bendigo will be converted to SG in anywhere near a similar time frame. Bendigo Line capacity constraints are further down the line with the single sections.

The Western SRL section is quite a ways off, and the development of signalling technology in the mean time leaves a lot of potential slack in how many trains can run. With some clever passing lanes at a potential Keilor East station, I don't see why 6 Airport trains per hour couldn't share with 12-20 SRL trains.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I think Shepparton will be converted to SG
TOQ-1
Wash your mouth out!
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The word I'm hearing around the traps at the present time is that it'll be 1600mm.
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

I still think it would be better to run the airport rail link via Essendon Fields, Highpoint/(ADF) and Footscray rather than running it via Scumshine


15 Billion seems like a ridiculous, inflated price tag. The Airport Line via Albion used to be costed at around 3 Billion. And I know it is going to be underground from South Kensington to Sunshine and then on to the Airport and will share tracks with Geelong/Ballarat HSR but this is inflated.

At least with the Maribyrnong and Flemington option, it gives you a direct, quick service to the city. It also unlocks the potential for stations at Victoria University, Maribyrnong, Highpoint and Victoria University, all areas that have poor PT. This suburban Rail Loop can cover the Albion line portion as it is travelling via sunshine and on to the Airport, probably via a few new stations. There’s you regional connectivity.

It is absurd to have Airport and SRL running both via Sunshine. You would need to Quadruplicate the Albion line and tunnel into Tullamarine, 2 for Airport and 2 for SRL (would have 20-30 TPH). Then you have to factor in the freight that travels along the Albion corridor.

Can electrified 250-300km/h trains run underground, especially when the Geelong/Ballarat Future HSR is set to share the same tracks as the Airport Line ? Why can’t you use the current RRL tracks, they could fit 8 TPH Waurn Ponds HSR, 5 TPH Wendouree and the other Bendigo Line Services all on the current tracks with a bit of high capacity signalling. Problem is then you have to fit Melton and WV Electrification into the project as well, Melton could travel via MM1 but what about WV ?

Many airport lines have stations along the way, there are express, direct to the airport and stopping all Stations to the airport. Athens, London, etc all have this and it works well. Building an airport line while providing a reliable service for those in Maribyrnong and Victoria University will work very well
ptvcommuter
I Agree the price is mad! But then i was in Melbourne last week walking past the Metro1 construction sites. The sheer number of workers standing around doing nothing or texting was insane! Add the unions and its no wonder its costing so much. Dont get me wrong, i think unions for safety is good, but thats about all. From my friends experience ( and published data i have read  but conveniently cannot find), unions add 20-27% to the cost of a build. Its why .... ahh dont worry. Another topic.
( was also up country and saw some of the Ballarat line upgrade works- those guys are going flat out!!)

The only other reason for the high cost is maybe the tunnel will go past SC to Richmond, and to sunbury at the other end? That would make sense and justify the cost.

Either way, just get digging and building. More train tunnels and faster regional trains is a good thing!
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Where is all the money going and why does it cost 3 times the price for a rail project in Victoria than other states?

These large projects costing $15b is simply ridiculous so I wonder if some of the funds are being sent to the unions and into the ALP coffers?

The projects seems to take a lot longer to deliver in Victoria than other states adding to the cost.

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