The cost of Duplication

 
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

How much would duplication cost for certain areas on our network, Triplication and Quadruplication are other issues ?
For example

The 31km section between Kyneton and Castlemaine ?
The 7km section between Kangaroo Flat and Bendigo ?
70km or so of single track between Melton and Ballarat ?


I’d assume it would be higher for dual convertible sleepers and obviously if the line were electrified

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  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
A double track tunnel singled for loading gauge and heritage reasons would cost a lot more per metre than a plain problem free tunnel.

Similarly for rusty steel viaducts.

These days with power signalling, points can be located very close to problem tunnels and viaducts, without the need for manned signal boxes at the ends of such tunnels and viaducts.

Thus almost complete and full duplication, apart from tunnels and visducts can represent a useful financial saving compared to full duplication.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
A double track tunnel singled for loading gauge and heritage reasons would cost a lot more per metre than a plain problem free tunnel.

Similarly for rusty steel viaducts.

These days with power signalling, points can be located very close to problem tunnels and viaducts, without the need for manned signal boxes at the ends of such tunnels and viaducts.

Thus almost complete and full duplication, apart from tunnels and visducts can represent a useful financial saving compared to full duplication.
awsgc24
True but at what operational cost?

The two bottlenecks that would be left at Elphinstone and Big Hill would require trains travelling on the "loop" track ie the one that is not the straight road over the points) to slow down to 80/65/40 depending on points used and signalling arrangements. This slowdown generally starts around 6km from the points in my experience riding the rails to CME.

Add to that the cost of installing, signalling and maintaining the 4 points.

Leaving aside the V/Line Tunnel Monster Myth for a second just rip out what is in their, drop the floor a few inches and rebuild it with 2 tracks and a 130km/h speed limit.

Oh and the real cost of reduplicating vast stretches of Kyneton > Bendigo will be the 3 > 6 month shutdown that will be required.

BG
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
I would think that 70 kms of electrification and duplication for the ballarat line would (or should I say SHOULD) cost somewhere around $2m per kilometre because it is Victoria.  Plus the connections to the power network in Ballarat and Western Melbourne for AC.

Total cost of electrification for the Ballarat line with rail works should be around $300m.

Plus you need on the Ballarat line to build second platforms which should not exceed $1m per platform.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
True but at what operational cost?

The two bottlenecks that would be left at Elphinstone and Big Hill would require trains travelling on the "loop" track ie the one that is not the straight road over the points) to slow down to 80/65/40 depending on points used and signalling arrangements. This slowdown generally starts around 6km from the points in my experience riding the rails to CME.

Add to that the cost of installing, signalling and maintaining the 4 points.
BrentonGolding
Turnouts can of course be much faster than 80/65/40, but actual information is not to hand as to available speeds.

Obviously one compares the cost of the
* turnout solution
* deepened tunnel solution
* new tunnel solution.
* some kind of gauntlet track
** reduce track centres, no V-crossings
** intertwine up and down tracks, 2 V-crossings no switch blades
** intertwine up and down tracks, 2 high speed turnouts
* no new infrastructure "solution" which is the base case.

BTW, the tunnels in question have length, but what exactly are these lengths?
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Turnouts can of course be much faster than 80/65/40, but actual information is not to hand as to available speeds.
awsgc24
Voest-Alpine have this 160km/h crossover https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2016/TER/Heinz_Ossberger_Modern_Turnout_Technology.pdf .

Some pictures of the turnout at the end of a "Passing Lane" show a swing out to something wider than 4.00m for a short distance.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Turnouts can of course be much faster than 80/65/40, but actual information is not to hand as to available speeds.
Voest-Alpine have this 160km/h crossover https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2016/TER/Heinz_Ossberger_Modern_Turnout_Technology.pdf .
awsgc24
It is possible that for a crossover to work, wider track centres that NSW's 3.66m (12 feet) are needed.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Turnouts can of course be much faster than 80/65/40, but actual information is not to hand as to available speeds.

Obviously one compares the cost of the
* turnout solution
* deepened tunnel solution
* new tunnel solution.
* no new infrastructure "solution" which is the base case.

BTW, the tunnels in question have length, but what exactly are these lengths?
awsgc24
Yes, turnouts can be faster than that but the faster they are the more $$$ we are talking. Once you get into swing nose territory they are very expensive and require more infrastructure and maintenance.

As someone who travels this line (as I am right now) 4 times a week I can assure you that leaving the two tunnels as single line will create more problems down the track. It will be fine at first, just as it was when they singled it in the 2000s but history will repeat itself as more services are introduced and once again we will have a situation where one train running late cascades down the timetable.

And if your question at the end is how long are the tunnels Elphi is 385M and Big Hill is 390M.

BG
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Turnouts can of course be much faster than 80/65/40, but actual information is not to hand as to available speeds.

Obviously one compares the cost of the
* turnout solution
* deepened tunnel solution
* new tunnel solution.
* no new infrastructure "solution" which is the base case.

BTW, the tunnels in question have length, but what exactly are these lengths?
Yes, turnouts can be faster than that but the faster they are the more $$$ we are talking. Once you get into swing nose territory they are very expensive and require more infrastructure and maintenance.

As someone who travels this line (as I am right now) 4 times a week I can assure you that leaving the two tunnels as single line will create more problems down the track. It will be fine at first, just as it was when they singled it in the 2000s but history will repeat itself as more services are introduced and once again we will have a situation where one train running late cascades down the timetable.

And if your question at the end is how long are the tunnels Elphi is 385M and Big Hill is 390M.

BG
BrentonGolding
why not reduplicate the tunnels with a slower speed limit? surly 400m at 130km/h wont make much difference?
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Why not reduplicate the tunnels with a slower speed limit? surly 400m at 130km/h wont make much difference?
Dangersdan707
Indeed. The devil is in the detail. You need a perway engineer to say so.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
A double track tunnel singled for loading gauge and heritage reasons would cost a lot more per metre than a plain problem free tunnel.

Similarly for rusty steel viaducts.
awgsc24

Leaving aside the V/Line Tunnel Monster Myth for a second just rip out what is in their, drop the floor a few inches and rebuild it with 2 tracks and a 130km/h speed limit.
BrentonGolding
The tunnel 'issue' (and the heritage rail underbridge clearance problems as well) has a readily available engineering solution. Installation of slab track (as seen on CTD/Skyrail) with related bridge/tunnel excavation works can enable up to a 600mm drop in rail head height, enabling the track centres to be widened enough to enable trains to cross at 130kph and possibly even higher speeds inside/underneath these structures. The existing TPWS signalling installed during RFR enables direct enforcement of speed restrictions around these structures if required.

The viaducts along the Bendigo line are fine and building replacement structures is wholly unnecessary.

What is needed to rectify these issues is a funded 5-10 year plan of works on the Bendigo line to upgrade its capacity with an ultimate end-state of a fully duplicated line. It can even be done at a reasonable price if it is arranged accordingly.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
There is another way to fix the two tunnels of course - bore a new one beside. Costly though.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
This statement/question can only be described as rhetorical. It's like asking...how long is a piece of string Question
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
There is another way to fix the two tunnels of course - bore a new one beside. Costly though.
mikesyd
beat me to it mike for Bendigo

Approx
http://hotrails.net/resources/cost-estimates/
2 parallel tunnel X 0.5 km = $36M (+ inflate since 2013)

Rest of Bendigo line. About $2M per km X 40k = $80M

All up about $130M.
In the scale with what is going on for the rest of the network, a bargain.

But I doubt if 2 new tunnels are actually needed.
With modern digging technology (it's not 1860 anymore),
both Elphi and Big Hill could be done as cuttings for the 2nd track. Cheaper than tunnels ???.

cheers
John
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

No need for duplicate tunnels. Just drop the speed in that section and it's all good as it was pre-2005.

Remember too that Big Hill tunnel at least is solid granite - hideously difficult and expensive to tunnel through.  It was a massive job in 1862 with 4 seperate rock faces!
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
There is another way to fix the two tunnels of course - bore a new one beside. Costly though.
beat me to it mike for Bendigo

Approx
http://hotrails.net/resources/cost-estimates/
2 parallel tunnel X 0.5 km = $36M (+ inflate since 2013)

Rest of Bendigo line. About $2M per km X 40k = $80M

All up about $130M.
In the scale with what is going on for the rest of the network, a bargain.

But I doubt if 2 new tunnels are actually needed.
With modern digging technology (it's not 1860 anymore),
both Elphi and Big Hill could be done as cuttings for the 2nd track. Cheaper than tunnels ???.

cheers
John
justarider
How about you just duplicate the existing tunnels with a 130 km/h speed limit !

There Is no 160 km/h running In the vicinity of the two tunnels anyway. due to curves and grades.


Single line delays add up to much more than the time savings achieved by traveling above 130 km/h
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
There is another way to fix the two tunnels of course - bore a new one beside. Costly though.
beat me to it mike for Bendigo
....

But I doubt if 2 new tunnels are actually needed.
With modern digging technology (it's not 1860 anymore),
both Elphi and Big Hill could be done as cuttings for the 2nd track. Cheaper than tunnels ???.

cheers
John
How about you just duplicate the existing tunnels with a 130 km/h speed limit !

There Is no 160 km/h running In the vicinity of the two tunnels anyway. due to curves and grades.


Single line delays add up to much more than the time savings achieved by traveling above 130 km/h
Nightfire
From what I've read so far, 130kph should scare the bejesus out of V/Line.
2 trains head to head @ 260 kph, SFA clearance, and a bit of rockin and rollin.

Think more like 80kph through those tunnels - that's almost as bad schedule-wise as leaving as a single track.

cheers
John
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

To answer the origininal question :

It is cheaper to restore an existing duplication than duplicate an existing single line , because the second category requires all new earthworks, bridges, culverts, viaducts etc .

E:G:  To restore duplication between Kyneton and Bendigo one does it in stages

Stage - 1  Kyneton to Up end Taradale Loop, + Extend Castlemaine Loop to down end of Harcourt, restore double track section through Bendigo Yard.
Stage - 2  Down end Taradale Loop to Up end Castlemaine Loop +  Down end Hardcourt Loop to Up end Kangaroo Flat .
The tunnels are not an issue PROOF  Sprinters which are wider & longer than VLocity cars ran through both tunnels for years at 130kmh no problems, so narrower and shorter VL cars at 25m can run through both tunnels on restored parallel tracks quite happily at 130 kmh .

On an existing single track duplication depends on bridges viaducst earthworks etc . South Geelong to Waurn Ponds with two long bridges over the Barwon River floodplain is 17 kms around $  300m , plus second platforms, signalling etc and two grade separations brings it up to $ 700m .

The additional cost of installing full size gauge convertible sleepers is around $ 1 per sleeper extra . The trouble is we dont have at this time a low profile gauge convertible sleeper, only full size gauge convertible sleepers .  Austrak at Avalon could no doubt make a low profile dual gauge sleeper but no one at V/Line or Victrack has asked them to develop a design at this stage apparently .

One would only go for dual gauge sleepers in new work or any renewals on existing bg lines where there is a high likelihood of gauge conversion to sg in future  like  between Ballarat & Ararat and  North of Wallan to Seymour , Shepparton and Tocumwal .
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The tunnels are not an issue PROOF  Sprinters which are wider & longer than VLocity cars ran through both tunnels for years at 130kmh no problems, so narrower and shorter VL cars at 25m can run through both tunnels on restored parallel tracks quite happily at 130 kmh .
kuldalai
true, but that was before super safe, and litigious averse, protocols were adopted.

Did Sprinters actually pass inside the tunnel ?  With the increase in traffic it would be fairly likely.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

https://www.ptua.org.au/allies/brag/SingleMindedMania.pdf

The magnum opus on the Tunnel Monster, for those that have not seen it before.

Summary: 130km/h is safe at Class 2 standards, and 135km/h is the speed required to ensure that no measurable time is lost as a result of the speed restriction. Hence, it should be easily possible with the tighter tolerances of Class 1 track. Even if it were not, the time lost would be in fractions of a second.

edit: oh, and if you're wondering why, the DoI admitted to the Auditor-General in 2005 that it didn't actually have staff who understood rail operations and had to go on the word of the designing contractors.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Love that report PIMM. Rail Digest as Nostradamus!

***edited following correction from SE Martin below***

BG
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
To answer the origininal question :

It is cheaper to restore an existing duplication than duplicate an existing single line , because the second category requires all new earthworks, bridges, culverts, viaducts etc .

E:G:  To restore duplication between Kyneton and Bendigo one does it in stages

Stage - 1  Kyneton to Up end Taradale Loop, + Extend Castlemaine Loop to down end of Harcourt, restore double track section through Bendigo Yard.
Stage - 2  Down end Taradale Loop to Up end Castlemaine Loop +  Down end Hardcourt Loop to Up end Kangaroo Flat .
kuldalai
The problem that I see with doing it that way is that you are condemning long suffering Bendigo pax to multiple long term shutdowns and bustitutions. We already went through one for RFR then another for RRL now you are talking about another 2.

Just bite the bullet, do as much prep as you can first without too much disruption (ie maybe the occasional night or weekend occo) and then close Kyneton > Bendigo and do the whole bloody thing in one go.

Still doesn't solve the SBY > RRL problem though.

BG
  RustyRick Chief Commissioner

Location: South West Vic
Why not reduplicate the tunnels with a slower speed limit? surly 400m at 130km/h wont make much difference?
Indeed. The devil is in the detail. You need a perway engineer to say so.
awsgc24
Perway engineer? I thought they were extinct.

Rick
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
There is another way to fix the two tunnels of course - bore a new one beside. Costly though.
beat me to it mike for Bendigo

Approx
http://hotrails.net/resources/cost-estimates/
2 parallel tunnel X 0.5 km = $36M (+ inflate since 2013)

Rest of Bendigo line. About $2M per km X 40k = $80M

All up about $130M.
In the scale with what is going on for the rest of the network, a bargain.

But I doubt if 2 new tunnels are actually needed.
With modern digging technology (it's not 1860 anymore),
both Elphi and Big Hill could be done as cuttings for the 2nd track. Cheaper than tunnels ???.

cheers
John
justarider

And electrification costs or are they included?
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
There is another way to fix the two tunnels of course - bore a new one beside. Costly though.
beat me to it mike for Bendigo

Approx
http://hotrails.net/resources/cost-estimates/
2 parallel tunnel X 0.5 km = $36M (+ inflate since 2013)

Rest of Bendigo line. About $2M per km X 40k = $80M

All up about $130M.
In the scale with what is going on for the rest of the network, a bargain.

cheers
John

And electrification costs or are they included?
x31
Add $2M per km for dual track sparks. Rough cost no matter what the track is underneath.

cheers
John

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