New long-distance V/Line rolling stock

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I'm no expert of BG and SG so I'm going to need some help. Got a lot of questions and appreciate any sort of answer. Melbourne gauge system is too confusing

Bombardier are designing a long haul version of the Vlocity that will have buffet, catering, first class, etc. This will run on the Albury SG Line

So when it comes to doing the other long distance lines: Bairnsdale, Swan Hill, Echuca and Warnambool how would this work. Would those Trains be BG or would they be SG, obviously I'm not sure there's SG to Bairnsdale and Bendigo ? Would you have to convert or would you run two different long haul fleets ?

Another point, with future extensions to Horsham/Dimboola isn't the track there SG, how would this run into Melbourne, shuttle services to Ararat will not please many passengers. Then there is an extension to Hamilton that is also planned.

Then there's a new fleet needed for a more reliable Overland service I guess.
ptvcommuter
With  sg  V/Locities  -   Albury would take 5 x 4 car sets to run 5 return trips Weekdays 3 to traffic/2  PPM back up.

Wimmera -  viz:  Hamilton / Horsham would be 3 car sg sets running as D/C between Ballarat & Horsham, all pax change at Ballarat (same platform change of trains) to/from bg from/to Melbourne .  Do Google search for Wimmera Transport study for full details .

First routes to get the Inter City V/Locities will be  Albury (sg) and Warrnambool (bg) followed by Swan Hill &  Bairnsdale .
4 car sets include an extra TM car greater provision luggage, cycles plus buffet .  Likely capacity  250 - 260 pax over the 4 cars .  Wmb takes 3 sets for 5 trips a day,  Swh  2 sets for 3 trips a day, Bdle  3 sets for 5 trips a day,  and Albury 3 sets for sg for 5 trips a day .  Add 2 x4  sg  and  2 x 4 bg sets  PPM/backuo can run the lot . Shepp goes V/Locity but VL commuter type sets 8 - 9 trips a day to accelerated schedules.  Medium term  Ararat, Horsham, Hamilton Maryborough sg 3 car sets based at VBallarat .

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  cageyr Locomotive Fireman

I'm no expert of BG and SG so I'm going to need some help. Got a lot of questions and appreciate any sort of answer. Melbourne gauge system is too confusing

Are you from the Department of Transport?Laughing

It's pretty simple. Everything in Victoria is BG at the moment except:
  • North East line: 1 SG track alongside 2 BG tracks to Seymour; 2 SG tracks only Seymour-Albury
  • Western SG: 1 SG track from Tottenham to the border via Newport, North Shore, Ararat, Horsham, Dimboola
  • Ararat-Maryborough
  • Maryborough-Mildura (dual gauge to Dunolly where the Sea Lake and Manangatang lines branch off)
  • Plus SG access to parts of Southern Cross and the Port.
potatoinmymouth
What about the branches, Dimboola-Rainbow, Murtoa- Hopetoun,  Maroona-Portland, Benalla- Oaklands, Mildura-Yelta, Ouyen-Murrayville.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

What about the branches, Dimboola-Rainbow, Murtoa- Hopetoun, Maroona-Portland, Benalla- Oaklands, Mildura-Yelta, Ouyen-Murrayville.
cageyr

Yes, derr, forgot them.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
So when it comes to doing the other long distance lines: Bairnsdale, Swan Hill, Echuca and Warnambool how would this work. Would those Trains be BG or would they be SG, obviously I'm not sure there's SG to Bairnsdale and Bendigo ? Would you have to convert or would you run two different long haul fleets ?
ptvcommuter
Probably 2 different fleets, but in some cases (eg Goulburn Valley, perhaps Warnambool and somehow Swan Hill) I would think it would make sense to consider additional gauge conversion.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
So when it comes to doing the other long distance lines: Bairnsdale, Swan Hill, Echuca and Warnambool how would this work. Would those Trains be BG or would they be SG, obviously I'm not sure there's SG to Bairnsdale and Bendigo ? Would you have to convert or would you run two different long haul fleets ?
Probably 2 different fleets, but in some cases (eg Goulburn Valley, perhaps Warnambool and somehow Swan Hill) I would think it would make sense to consider additional gauge conversion.
james.au
I'm doing it again Smile


  Duncs Chief Commissioner

The easiest way to get around the gauge issue is to use flexible bogies on the carriages. Spain has done this effectively and successfully for many years as they have narrow gauge, standard gauge and a broad gauge (slightly wider than ours) all operating within their rail network.

You run the carriages through a gauge converting station that then unlocks the bogies allowing them to move inwards or outwards as required. They then adjust the passenger carriage's bogie setting into whatever gauge is required. Eg. BG to SG. The bogies then lock into place. For locomotives, a BG loco pushes the train into the station and the SG loco pulls it way at the other end.

If you are using a 'push pull set up", then after the SG loco has pulled the train clear, a second SG loco attaches to the rear of the train. When entering the conversion station, the leading BG loco uncouples from the train before it enters the conversion station, so the carriages are pushed through by the rear BG loco as mentioned above.

Having some spare locos of different gauges, matched up with some strategically located conversion stations, would be far cheaper and more effective than duplicating SG and BG side by side, or using dual gauge track.

Now I realise that this does not work for DMUS (at least not that I know of) but it is an option we should consider.

I suggest that such stations be located near Southern Cross so BG carriages can convert to SG for the run to Albury. This process can be reversed when the train goes back to BG for a trip to say; Bairnsdale.

Another location can be at Ararat so BG trains can convert to SG for Portland and Horsham.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The easiest way to get around the gauge issue is to use flexible bogies on the carriages. Spain has done this effectively and successfully for many years as they have narrow gauge, standard gauge and a broad gauge (slightly wider than ours) all operating within their rail network.

You run the carriages through a gauge converting station that then unlocks the bogies allowing them to move inwards or outwards as required. They then adjust the passenger carriage's bogie setting into whatever gauge is required. Eg. BG to SG. The bogies then lock into place. For locomotives, a BG loco pushes the train into the station and the SG loco pulls it way at the other end.

If you are using a 'push pull set up", then after the SG loco has pulled the train clear, a second SG loco attaches to the rear of the train. When entering the conversion station, the leading BG loco uncouples from the train before it enters the conversion station, so the carriages are pushed through by the rear BG loco as mentioned above.

Having some spare locos of different gauges, matched up with some strategically located conversion stations, would be far cheaper and more effective than duplicating SG and BG side by side, or using dual gauge track.

Now I realise that this does not work for DMUS (at least not that I know of) but it is an option we should consider.

I suggest that such stations be located near Southern Cross so BG carriages can convert to SG for the run to Albury. This process can be reversed when the train goes back to BG for a trip to say; Bairnsdale.

Another location can be at Ararat so BG trains can convert to SG for Portland and Horsham.
Duncs
your right, it does not work with DMU, and these are rapidly becoming the only fleet.

Why so het up about a V/Lo SG fleet + a V/Lo BG fleet.

The SG/BG bogies will be interchangeable. There is only one fleet, fit out for the "normal" requirement for each line.

Swapping around to meet changing demands (maintenance, break-down, passenger load) are all relatively quick and easy at each of the maintenance depots around the state where SG and BG meet.

Not touching what happens at Ararat. That will send everyone into a tizz.

cheers
John
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I think you missed my point. These gauge convertible carriages get converted in real time. So the process of the bogies changing actually occurs while the train is moving slowly through the conversion point. A process that takes under 10 minutes. For long distance rolling stock a push pull set is as good, if not better than a DMU set. The XPT and the Queensland Diesel Tilt Train prove that. I have nothing against V Locities as such, I use them often. But over a longer distance a push pull set up can do the job equally well. As I described in my earlier post, such a set up would remove the need for duplicate tracks or dual gauge track.

FYI Below is an explanation of how this works in Spain, from Wikipedia

Gauge changer

A Talgo gauge changing system in [color=#0b0080]Lleida[/color], Spain



A gauge changer is a device which forces the gauge adjustment in the wheels. Designs consist of a pair of running rails that gradually vary in width between the two gauges, combined with other rails and levers to unlock, move, support and re-lock the adjustable axles.
In the Spanish Talgo-RD system, a constant spray of water is used to lubricate the metal surfaces, to reduce heat and wear. A Talgo-RD gauge changer is 20 metres long and 6 metres wide.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
I think you missed my point. These gauge convertible carriages get converted in real time. So the process of the bogies changing actually occurs while the train is moving slowly through the conversion point. A process that takes under 10 minutes. For long distance rolling stock a push pull set is as good, if not better than a DMU set. The XPT and the Queensland Diesel Tilt Train prove that. I have nothing against V Locities as such, I use them often. But over a longer distance a push pull set up can do the job equally well. As I described in my earlier post, such a set up would remove the need for duplicate tracks or dual gauge track.

FYI Below is an explanation of how this works in Spain, from Wikipedia

Gauge changer

A Talgo gauge changing system in [color=#0b0080]Lleida[/color], Spain



A gauge changer is a device which forces the gauge adjustment in the wheels. Designs consist of a pair of running rails that gradually vary in width between the two gauges, combined with other rails and levers to unlock, move, support and re-lock the adjustable axles.
In the Spanish Talgo-RD system, a constant spray of water is used to lubricate the metal surfaces, to reduce heat and wear. A Talgo-RD gauge changer is 20 metres long and 6 metres wide.
Duncs
Look at U tube: can't be bothered finding again.

Spain runs the High Speed trains thru the shed at about 80kph and converts on the fly. takes a minute.
Impressive but expensive. Too good for V/Line.

But too bad.
We have V/Lo and no complete wipe out and replace of the passenger fleet is going to happen this side of the next ice age.

cheers
John
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

All we need to do is replace the N sets and add in some additional rolling stock as I have described. Using the system they have in Spain is not too good for V Line. As I said earlier it is a cheaper and more effective option. Now what does need to change is the culture within V line's top management. (NB. Don't get BEVANS started on this!) So new people and new thinking. I would start by bringing in some of the specialists from Spain to advise us on how to set this all up.

The V Locities can do their thing, that's fine. But as this thread is about long distance rolling stock, this idea needs to be examined carefully and not by people within V Line who have a pre set negative agenda.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The easiest way to get around the gauge issue is to use flexible bogies on the carriages. Spain has done this effectively and successfully for many years as they have narrow gauge, standard gauge and a broad gauge (slightly wider than ours) all operating within their rail network.

You run the carriages through a gauge converting station that then unlocks the bogies allowing them to move inwards or outwards as required. They then adjust the passenger carriage's bogie setting into whatever gauge is required. Eg. BG to SG. The bogies then lock into place. For locomotives, a BG loco pushes the train into the station and the SG loco pulls it way at the other end.

If you are using a 'push pull set up", then after the SG loco has pulled the train clear, a second SG loco attaches to the rear of the train. When entering the conversion station, the leading BG loco uncouples from the train before it enters the conversion station, so the carriages are pushed through by the rear BG loco as mentioned above.

Having some spare locos of different gauges, matched up with some strategically located conversion stations, would be far cheaper and more effective than duplicating SG and BG side by side, or using dual gauge track.

Now I realise that this does not work for DMUS (at least not that I know of) but it is an option we should consider.

I suggest that such stations be located near Southern Cross so BG carriages can convert to SG for the run to Albury. This process can be reversed when the train goes back to BG for a trip to say; Bairnsdale.

Another location can be at Ararat so BG trains can convert to SG for Portland and Horsham.
Duncs
Its really far to late for gauge conversion to be an option, a couple of points.

Its almost certain one can only "gauge convert" non driving vehicles, the reason why driving axles cannot be done is the wheels with the driving key need to be a good interference fit on the axles (100 to 200 ton press fit at least). If there not (as in the wheel needs to readliy slide on the axle the wheel hub will chop out VERY quickly).

Going on from there, VLine has 210 VLocity carriages, to go gauge convertable these will ALL have to be scrapped and new carriages and loco's purchased. At this stage this would in no way be poilitcally feasable.

Getting 3 or so extra SG VLocity sets as spares is NOT going break either the government or VLine and the ONLY thing different will probably be the bogies, so few extra spares will need to be kept.

People NEED to except we have two gauges, the damage was done many years ago, all we can do is live with the situation, to change the whole state to SG would be far to disruptive AND expensive for what we will gain.

woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Hi Woodford

Given that the V Locities are the inter urban / regional rolling stock for up to two hours travel time, then they are fine for that.

I come back to my point that we have the N sets that everyone (including me) agrees need to be replaced. So my suggestion is to replace the N sets and leave the V Locities doing what they do now. Also if we are ever going to return trains to Mildura, Horsham and possibly Portland, then this offers a simple way through the different gauge problem. I am only advocating the adjustable bogies for the carriages. The locomotives will be either BG or SG as required and to be used as I described earlier.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

All we need to do is replace the N sets and add in some additional rolling stock as I have described. Using the system they have in Spain is not too good for V Line. As I said earlier it is a cheaper and more effective option. Now what does need to change is the culture within V line's top management. (NB. Don't get BEVANS started on this!) So new people and new thinking. I would start by bringing in some of the specialists from Spain to advise us on how to set this all up.

The V Locities can do their thing, that's fine. But as this thread is about long distance rolling stock, this idea needs to be examined carefully and not by people within V Line who have a pre set negative agenda.
Duncs
I was in Spain 2 years ago and I think you will find their ultimate aim is to convert all viable lines to standard gauge. All the rest will go the way of the Dodo. I saw relatively new broad gauge track on concrete sleepers cut up and replaced with standard gauge. Victoria should stop living in the past and get rid of broad gauge except in the suburban network.

Andalusian gauge is nearly 5ft 6" but not quite.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Hi Woodford

Given that the V Locities are the inter urban / regional rolling stock for up to two hours travel time, then they are fine for that.

I come back to my point that we have the N sets that everyone (including me) agrees need to be replaced. So my suggestion is to replace the N sets and leave the V Locities doing what they do now. Also if we are ever going to return trains to Mildura, Horsham and possibly Portland, then this offers a simple way through the different gauge problem. I am only advocating the adjustable bogies for the carriages. The locomotives will be either BG or SG as required and to be used as I described earlier.
Duncs
I think you will find one of VLines aims is to reduce the cost of maintenance by having only a single class of rolling stock. There is only 4 loco hauled destinations (Forget about shepparton, it will end up being an extension of the Seymour service) and one ends up with the same problem Albury has. Do we provide enough sets to guarantee the service, and have idle rolling stock sitting around or cut down the number of sets an end up with plenty of train cancellations. As well as that one needs full mantenance facilities for the quite different rolling stock and loco's. this includes stocking enough additional not to say the VERY expensive running spares required. Do NOT underestimate these's costs they are one of VLines major costs.

Now I do believe VLine could  replace the loco hauled fleet with more modern equipment, there is such rolling stock currently in production some where in this world, but I also do understand VLine trying to cut maintenance costs by only having a singla class of rolling stock.

woodford
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The oldest Vlocities are turning 15 this year. What will their expected life span be? 30 years, 40 years?
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Hi Woodford

Given that the V Locities are the inter urban / regional rolling stock for up to two hours travel time, then they are fine for that.

I come back to my point that we have the N sets that everyone (including me) agrees need to be replaced. So my suggestion is to replace the N sets and leave the V Locities doing what they do now. Also if we are ever going to return trains to Mildura, Horsham and possibly Portland, then this offers a simple way through the different gauge problem. I am only advocating the adjustable bogies for the carriages. The locomotives will be either BG or SG as required and to be used as I described earlier.
I think you will find one of VLines aims is to reduce the cost of maintenance by having only a single class of rolling stock. There is only 4 loco hauled destinations (Forget about shepparton, it will end up being an extension of the Seymour service) and one ends up with the same problem Albury has. Do we provide enough sets to guarantee the service, and have idle rolling stock sitting around or cut down the number of sets an end up with plenty of train cancellations. As well as that one needs full mantenance facilities for the quite different rolling stock and loco's. this includes stocking enough additional not to say the VERY expensive running spares required. Do NOT underestimate these's costs they are one of VLines major costs.

Now I do believe VLine could  replace the loco hauled fleet with more modern equipment, there is such rolling stock currently in production some where in this world, but I also do understand VLine trying to cut maintenance costs by only having a singla class of rolling stock.

woodford
woodford
I take your point about maintenance costs. I also note that V Locities do have a strong record of reliability so I can understand where V line are going here.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Hi Woodford

Given that the V Locities are the inter urban / regional rolling stock for up to two hours travel time, then they are fine for that.

I come back to my point that we have the N sets that everyone (including me) agrees need to be replaced. So my suggestion is to replace the N sets and leave the V Locities doing what they do now. Also if we are ever going to return trains to Mildura, Horsham and possibly Portland, then this offers a simple way through the different gauge problem. I am only advocating the adjustable bogies for the carriages. The locomotives will be either BG or SG as required and to be used as I described earlier.
I think you will find one of VLines aims is to reduce the cost of maintenance by having only a single class of rolling stock. There is only 4 loco hauled destinations (Forget about shepparton, it will end up being an extension of the Seymour service) and one ends up with the same problem Albury has. Do we provide enough sets to guarantee the service, and have idle rolling stock sitting around or cut down the number of sets an end up with plenty of train cancellations. As well as that one needs full mantenance facilities for the quite different rolling stock and loco's. this includes stocking enough additional not to say the VERY expensive running spares required. Do NOT underestimate these's costs they are one of VLines major costs.

Now I do believe VLine could  replace the loco hauled fleet with more modern equipment, there is such rolling stock currently in production some where in this world, but I also do understand VLine trying to cut maintenance costs by only having a singla class of rolling stock.

woodford
I take your point about maintenance costs. I also note that V Locities do have a strong record of reliability so I can understand where V line are going here.
Duncs
Reliability?  Nah, they are just flushed with expensive redundancy.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The oldest Vlocities are turning 15 this year. What will their expected life span be? 30 years, 40 years?
TOQ-1
35 years is the expected life span*, the actual will be as long as PTV can drag out of them!

*source the ever reliable wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity

BG
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Hi Woodford

Given that the V Locities are the inter urban / regional rolling stock for up to two hours travel time, then they are fine for that.

I come back to my point that we have the N sets that everyone (including me) agrees need to be replaced. So my suggestion is to replace the N sets and leave the V Locities doing what they do now. Also if we are ever going to return trains to Mildura, Horsham and possibly Portland, then this offers a simple way through the different gauge problem. I am only advocating the adjustable bogies for the carriages. The locomotives will be either BG or SG as required and to be used as I described earlier.
I think you will find one of VLines aims is to reduce the cost of maintenance by having only a single class of rolling stock. There is only 4 loco hauled destinations (Forget about shepparton, it will end up being an extension of the Seymour service) and one ends up with the same problem Albury has. Do we provide enough sets to guarantee the service, and have idle rolling stock sitting around or cut down the number of sets an end up with plenty of train cancellations. As well as that one needs full mantenance facilities for the quite different rolling stock and loco's. this includes stocking enough additional not to say the VERY expensive running spares required. Do NOT underestimate these's costs they are one of VLines major costs.

Now I do believe VLine could  replace the loco hauled fleet with more modern equipment, there is such rolling stock currently in production some where in this world, but I also do understand VLine trying to cut maintenance costs by only having a singla class of rolling stock.

woodford
I take your point about maintenance costs. I also note that V Locities do have a strong record of reliability so I can understand where V line are going here.
Reliability?  Nah, they are just flushed with expensive redundancy.
skitz
One of the major things in design that contributes to relaibilty is redundancy, some examples.Each Sprinter car has 2 engines , 2 gear boxes. 2 braking systems, 2 altenators to provide power for use in the vehicle and 2 airconditioning systems. All railway signalling systems have backup 12v batteries for when the power fails. All airline aircraft have multiple control systems (usually 3 or 4) for all major control surfaces. The reason why the Voyager space craft are still going is because they have 2 computors, 2 main transmitters and 2 main recievers, as well as that the electromagnetic detection experiment can be used as a backup main reciever. I could go on and on and on. In systems that MUST be reliable redundancy is quite usual.

PS, Building anything that simply MUST  work first time and every time is always going to be AN EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE exersize.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The oldest Vlocities are turning 15 this year. What will their expected life span be? 30 years, 40 years?
TOQ-1
Basicly as long as one can get replacement parts, the Voith transmissions used in the Sprinters have been in production for at least 60 years as has the Deutz BFL513C engines. Industrial items do not usually suffer from any kind of fashion one can usuall get something that will fit and do the job. Last year we managed to get a full set of hydralic control cylinders for the cab of a 70 year old P&H crane.

woodford
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

According to all reports, the current VLocity’s bogies have been designed for SG conversion from the get-go (as were the Sprinter’s and N Type carriage’s). Presumably this will be the case for the new long-distance VLocity’s bogies. It should be just a matter of changing the wheelsets on 4 powered bogies and 4 unpowered bogies on a 4-car set (or 3 and 5 respectively if the buffet car is unpowered), however difficult that is for diesel-hydraulic transmission.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

According to all reports, the current VLocity’s bogies have been designed for SG conversion from the get-go (as were the Sprinter’s and N Type carriage’s). Presumably this will be the case for the new long-distance VLocity’s bogies. It should be just a matter of changing the wheelsets on 4 powered bogies and 4 unpowered bogies on a 4-car set (or 3 and 5 respectively if the buffet car is unpowered), however difficult that is for diesel-hydraulic transmission.
kitchgp
The original announcement for the VLocity's stated they were gauge convertable, the bogies though have ONLY been certified for BG operation, the certification process for SG is being done now. There should not be to much trouble changing the powered axles, the VLocity's wheels do NOT have  separate tyres, when the wheel gets worn the whole wheel is changed. I assume to get access to the final drive unit, the bearings will need to be pressed off (Note 1), the wheel pressed off and the brake disk removed. The workshops have press's that will handle such tasks with few issues.

Note 1: The bearings are a VERY tight fit on the shaft, its often difficult to get them off without damaging them so its quite common just to cut them off and replace them. I assume though on the VLocity's the bearings can be pulled off with a standard very large bearing puller.

Note 2: the interference  fits used a very tight, this is a non-issue if one knows what one is doing AND has the appropriate equipment.

woodford
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

All this guessing and gossiping and we missed an official announcement clarifying some questions!

https://transport.vic.gov.au/-/media/north-east-vlocity-trains-fact-sheet.pdf

The design work underway is for a new build of VLocity, including standard gauge bogies, buffet facilities and luggage space.

It’s not a lot but it’s the clearest information yet provided publicly.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

All this guessing and gossiping and we missed an official announcement clarifying some questions!

https://transport.vic.gov.au/-/media/north-east-vlocity-trains-fact-sheet.pdf

The design work underway is for a new build of VLocity, including standard gauge bogies, buffet facilities and luggage space.

It’s not a lot but it’s the clearest information yet provided publicly.
potatoinmymouth
The bike hoops at Violet Town were done a month or so back.

woodford
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Interesting document, thanks for the link, Woodford.

From that document, I see it is not planned to terminate services at Benalla nor Wangaratta. The document mentions

Extra return coach services between Seymour and Wangaratta, and Seymour and Wodonga
Dan

Some time back, folks were suggesting that Benalla could be a Vlocity terminus. Hmm, seems that idea has died in the water.

On the subject of modifications to Vlocity, two days ago wongm posted pictures of Vlocity VL77 in platform 2 at SCS for crew familiarisation. Linky

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