Ad Met goings on -

 
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
With the new Grange weekday timetable in force today, I see that we have gone back in time.  The off-peak workings are now being covered by two units, both single cars.

Sponsored advertisement

  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
With the new Grange weekday timetable in force today, I see that we have gone back in time.  The off-peak workings are now being covered by two units, both single cars.
62430
Similarly on the Belair line tonight - 3010, 3019 and 3026 were operating as singles.

Richard.
  ARG706 Chief Commissioner

Location: SA
Been a while since I've even seen a single car on a run. The 11:12 Outer Harbor train was done by 3030.

Also felt like a 14.5 Volgren bus to me with everybody in the same carriage. Is this part of the PT cost cutting initiative?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Been a while since I've even seen a single car on a run. The 11:12 Outer Harbor train was done by 3030.

Also felt like a 14.5 Volgren bus to me with everybody in the same carriage. Is this part of the PT cost cutting initiative?
ARG706
Many passengers?

In the dying days of Connex in Melbourne they often ran 3-car Siemens or Comeng trains all day Sunday and it would get very crowded after lunch. What's the point of having trains if you're jammed in at off-peak times?
  ARG706 Chief Commissioner

Location: SA
From my obs, there were no more than about 15 passengers, until a group of teenagers boarded at Woodville.

They didn't all have valid tickets/sufficient funds to purchase them, but the PSA decided that their safety was more important and let them ride anyway.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Do we know for sure that this is a permanent move and not simply a consequence of a maintenance backlog?
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

With the new Grange weekday timetable in force today, I see that we have gone back in time.  The off-peak workings are now being covered by two units, both single cars.
62430
Given time some one might also work out that running the Grange line could be done in a shuttle service from Woodville to Grange and back to Woodville and save the running to and from Adelaide as well.  Just like it used to be done with Red Hens with the cars changed over every so often with a fresh car. It worked back then, but this is what might be being planned for the New Port Adelaide Dock service. So the Adelaide end of the Outer Harbor line still has its normal train services as now but to and from Outer Harbor and Port Adelaide Dock and the Grange service becomes a shuttle service.

Change at Woodville for trains to Grange!
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

Has any physical work actually started on the Port Dock link or the Tonsley line extension?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Has any physical work actually started on the Port Dock link or the Tonsley line extension?
mike49
I was out at Port Adelaide a couple of weeks ago and went past the Aviation Museum, didn't see anything different around there.

There has been a small amount of early works done for Flinders Link. A couple of the bridge supports have had the bases built by the Darlington Upgrade.

Certainly nothing too advanced to prevent cancellation on either one.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Port Adelaide dock could be cancelled tomorrow as only minor ground work has been done on it test bores and the like no actual physical work to relay it has actually started yet. Due to start in April I think it was this year. And for the cost of it $16.4 m estimate it would be better off cancelled actually, all it is is approx 500 metres of track and a new platform at Port Dock. It will most likely rise in costs though as the project blows out.
  mawsonboii Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
I think the Grange line timetable changes and use of single carriage trains is a part of budget cuts. it makes sense if two cars aren't needed for the run. I am wondering though if it would be better to replace the Grange train with a bus running from Woodville to Grange?

I've just looked at a possible bus route from Arndale shopping Centre to Westlakes shopping centre which works as a start and end point and would take 25 Minutes.

Arndale Access Rd, First Ave, Hanson Rd, Torrens Rd, Woodville Rd, (Where it would replace the Grange train) Port Rd, Westlakes Boulevard, Clark Tce, Tapleys Hill Rd, Trimmer Pde, Frederick Rd, Jetty St, Military Rd, Trimmer Pde, Sportsman Dr, Brebner Dr, Turner Dr, Westlakes Shopping Centre. (same route return)

I'd assume a bus would be cheaper to run than a train.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Port Adelaide dock could be cancelled tomorrow as only minor ground work has been done on it test bores and the like no actual physical work to relay it has actually started yet. Due to start in April I think it was this year. And for the cost of it $16.4 m estimate it would be better off cancelled actually, all it is is approx 500 metres of track and a new platform at Port Dock. It will most likely rise in costs though as the project blows out.
DJPeters
It would probably cost a fraction of that figure to reinstate the turn-back at Glanville because the platorms are already there; but the property spivs have put the screws on the state government to put more $$$ into Port Adelaide so they can entice buyers for their huge waterfront development.

Wouldn't touch Port Adelaide apartments with a barge-pole though, the resale losses have been huge on the "New Port" development.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Latest information (last fortnight) provided by NRM to members says work starts in earnest in March this year.

There will be a joint DPTI/NRM public information day held at the museum on Sunday 17 March with a Q&A session for museum members and volunteers in the afternoon.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Arndale Access Rd, First Ave, Hanson Rd, Torrens Rd, Woodville Rd, (Where it would replace the Grange train) Port Rd, Westlakes Boulevard, Clark Tce, Tapleys Hill Rd, Trimmer Pde, Frederick Rd, Jetty St, Military Rd, Trimmer Pde, Sportsman Dr, Brebner Dr, Turner Dr, Westlakes Shopping Centre. (same route return)
mawsonboii
Sounds like what you really want is just extra services on the existing 112, H30 and 300 routes.

It would probably cost a fraction of that figure to reinstate the turn-back at Glanville because the platorms are already there;
don_dunstan
Have a look at the current timetable and you'll quickly see that the cost of that option would be $0, because no reinstatement work is necessary.
  mawsonboii Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
Arndale Access Rd, First Ave, Hanson Rd, Torrens Rd, Woodville Rd, (Where it would replace the Grange train) Port Rd, Westlakes Boulevard, Clark Tce, Tapleys Hill Rd, Trimmer Pde, Frederick Rd, Jetty St, Military Rd, Trimmer Pde, Sportsman Dr, Brebner Dr, Turner Dr, Westlakes Shopping Centre. (same route return)
Sounds like what you really want is just extra services on the existing 112, H30 and 300 routes.

It would probably cost a fraction of that figure to reinstate the turn-back at Glanville because the platorms are already there;
Have a look at the current timetable and you'll quickly see that the cost of that option would be $0, because no reinstatement work is necessary.
justapassenger
Yes there are bus services that go through those Areas but this would be a service replaces the train. It doesn't necessarily have to start and end at Arndale/Westlakes, it's just an option. But again if there are busses that run past each train station regularly and can connect passengers to the City and Grange and the OH train then thats fine a new bus route isn't needed.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

At Woodville you arrive on your bus just in time to see the train to anywhere leave the platform, the services connect but only if you have time to spare waiting though. Getting a bus to Woodville a couple of minutes before the train is actually due is in the too hard basket by the looks of it. Going to Adelaide you only have to wait about 15 minutes but going to Grange or Outer Harbor you have about a half hour wait depending where you need to go.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

I think I made my point just a little too subtle.

In the event of the Grange line finally being closed (I believe it only survives because both political parties hope the other one will do it but don't want to do it themselves) and wanting to get to the city or Port Adelaide from Grange, connections to the OH line via bus routes which spend a good part of the time heading away from my destination are not going to be a part of my plans.

Mimicking the route of a railway closed due to low patronage would be the absolute worst way to design a bus route. You're better off taking a clean sheet of paper and designing direct bus routes that take people where they actually want to go. Odds are you'd end up with at least a couple of the routes being exactly the same as present ones.

If a tram is to serve Grange in the future, it should be an extension of a line to Henley Beach and not a rebuild of the present railway.
  mawsonboii Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
At Woodville you arrive on your bus just in time to see the train to anywhere leave the platform, the services connect but only if you have time to spare waiting though. Getting a bus to Woodville a couple of minutes before the train is actually due is in the too hard basket by the looks of it. Going to Adelaide you only have to wait about 15 minutes but going to Grange or Outer Harbor you have about a half hour wait depending where you need to go.
DJPeters
Same thing happens with me now that I have to change from a bus to the train to go to Salisbury or beyond the bus arrives at Mawson Lakes interchange 1 minute before the train so unless the bus is early or train is late (and the train is never/rarely late) I have to wait 15 minutes for the next train.
  mawsonboii Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
I think I made my point just a little too subtle.

In the event of the Grange line finally being closed (I believe it only survives because both political parties hope the other one will do it but don't want to do it themselves) and wanting to get to the city or Port Adelaide from Grange, connections to the OH line via bus routes which spend a good part of the time heading away from my destination are not going to be a part of my plans.

Mimicking the route of a railway closed due to low patronage would be the absolute worst way to design a bus route. You're better off taking a clean sheet of paper and designing direct bus routes that take people where they actually want to go. Odds are you'd end up with at least a couple of the routes being exactly the same as present ones.

If a tram is to serve Grange in the future, it should be an extension of a line to Henley Beach and not a rebuild of the present railway.
justapassenger
I was simply saying that a bus route replacing the train is possible. Never said it was the smarter option, simply said it might be cheaper to run a bus instead of the train.

Replacing the Outer Harbor train with a tram has been speculated for decades. It could easily work. However the cost would be ridiculous and unnecessary. Spend the money Electrifying the line and upgrading the stations. Just close the Grange line and have a Peak hour bus service or something running in replacement of the train.

We don't need a tram network. it worked in the pre 50's era because there weren't busses or cars. Unless you're going to build park and rides and main tram stops and interchanges with the local bus network to try and remove cars it just won't work.

Build an underground O-Bahn to the airport from the CBD
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

I think I made my point just a little too subtle.

In the event of the Grange line finally being closed (I believe it only survives because both political parties hope the other one will do it but don't want to do it themselves) and wanting to get to the city or Port Adelaide from Grange, connections to the OH line via bus routes which spend a good part of the time heading away from my destination are not going to be a part of my plans.

Mimicking the route of a railway closed due to low patronage would be the absolute worst way to design a bus route. You're better off taking a clean sheet of paper and designing direct bus routes that take people where they actually want to go. Odds are you'd end up with at least a couple of the routes being exactly the same as present ones.

If a tram is to serve Grange in the future, it should be an extension of a line to Henley Beach and not a rebuild of the present railway.
I was simply saying that a bus route replacing the train is possible. Never said it was the smarter option, simply said it might be cheaper to run a bus instead of the train.

Replacing the Outer Harbor train with a tram has been speculated for decades. It could easily work. However the cost would be ridiculous and unnecessary. Spend the money Electrifying the line and upgrading the stations. Just close the Grange line and have a Peak hour bus service or something running in replacement of the train.

We don't need a tram network. it worked in the pre 50's era because there weren't busses or cars. Unless you're going to build park and rides and main tram stops and interchanges with the local bus network to try and remove cars it just won't work.

Build an underground O-Bahn to the airport from the CBD
mawsonboii
The OBahn is now an orphan as no one builds busses expressly for O Bahn working in Australia now so instead of an underground O bahn how about a underground trainline or tram line to the airport one or the other would do the job and if both were electric no fumes to have to remove from the tunnels either. The train line could then link underground again back to the Grange  railway line and thus form a ring route rather than a out and back railcar type of operation.
  mawsonboii Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
I think I made my point just a little too subtle.

In the event of the Grange line finally being closed (I believe it only survives because both political parties hope the other one will do it but don't want to do it themselves) and wanting to get to the city or Port Adelaide from Grange, connections to the OH line via bus routes which spend a good part of the time heading away from my destination are not going to be a part of my plans.

Mimicking the route of a railway closed due to low patronage would be the absolute worst way to design a bus route. You're better off taking a clean sheet of paper and designing direct bus routes that take people where they actually want to go. Odds are you'd end up with at least a couple of the routes being exactly the same as present ones.

If a tram is to serve Grange in the future, it should be an extension of a line to Henley Beach and not a rebuild of the present railway.
I was simply saying that a bus route replacing the train is possible. Never said it was the smarter option, simply said it might be cheaper to run a bus instead of the train.

Replacing the Outer Harbor train with a tram has been speculated for decades. It could easily work. However the cost would be ridiculous and unnecessary. Spend the money Electrifying the line and upgrading the stations. Just close the Grange line and have a Peak hour bus service or something running in replacement of the train.

We don't need a tram network. it worked in the pre 50's era because there weren't busses or cars. Unless you're going to build park and rides and main tram stops and interchanges with the local bus network to try and remove cars it just won't work.

Build an underground O-Bahn to the airport from the CBD
The OBahn is now an orphan as no one builds busses expressly for O Bahn working in Australia now so instead of an underground O bahn how about a underground trainline or tram line to the airport one or the other would do the job and if both were electric no fumes to have to remove from the tunnels either. The train line could then link underground again back to the Grange  railway line and thus form a ring route rather than a out and back railcar type of operation.
DJPeters
O bahn would be cheaper, hence why I suggested it. A loop line connecting to the Grange Line would be expensive and probably impossible and given the low patronage on the grange line it wouldn't be warranted. A spur line of the southern lines to the airport would work, even creating a turn off so there can be a direct Salisbury to Airport train and maybe Brighton to Salisbury, not all trains need to serve the CBD
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
O bahn would be cheaper, hence why I suggested it. A loop line connecting to the Grange Line would be expensive and probably impossible and given the low patronage on the grange line it wouldn't be warranted. A spur line of the southern lines to the airport would work, even creating a turn off so there can be a direct Salisbury to Airport train and maybe Brighton to Salisbury, not all trains need to serve the CBD
mawsonboii
David Peters has explained why it's not desirable or practical to build another Obahn type track in Adelaide -

  • It's an engineering orphan with Mercedes no longer making the equipment so our buses have to be custom-engineered to run on the track; this in itself costs huge amounts of money.
  • The replacement custom-engineered buses struggle with noise and vibration because they were not specifically designed for use on the Obahn with a higher centre of gravity than the original Mercedes buses.
  • The original Obahn scheme was chosen because the (then) Liberal government didn't want the expense of building an extensive tunnel for light rail to travel through the CBD but the actual cost per kilometer of Obahn track was similar to building light rail anyway.
  • The Obahn custom engineered track was only projected to last 30 years and its already that old now. Pushing it out to 40 and 50 years of operation may not be practical as others have pointed out; it will probably need to be replaced by the end of next decade because of the above issues.

All of the above means that there will never be another Obahn built in Adelaide - as justapassenger said earlier a tram returned to Henley Beach is probably the best option if the Grange line is replaced.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Speaking of the Obahn I did read a rumour possibly on this board (?) that the overpasses on the route are too low for any future light rail vehicles with pantographs.

Also another member on this board - can't recall who but obviously someone with a lot of technical expertise on the topic - pointed out that in an emergency there's a lack of room on the side of the track and no handrails in case a bus (say) exploded into flames in the middle of one of the many bridges on the route. It's a worse case scenario but is there any contingency plan for something like that?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The inadequate underpass clearance (if it even exists, I've never seen evidence) isn't a major deal. Lowering the floor level would be routine work, but it's possible that a low profile slab track could create enough clearance if there are any locations where that's an issue.

The deal breaker is the geology between Paradise and Modbury. This route is completely incompatible with rail (unless you decommission Hope Valley Reservoir) and was always intended to be a road rather than a railway/tramway.

But this isn't needed, the government of the day simply needs to spend the extra cash on an appropriate vehicle chassis design from Europe the next time they start replacing the buses. There are considerably more guided busways now than there were in the 1980s and ours isn't even the longest one these days, so it is certainly not a technological orphan. Shelling out a touch extra for quality vehicles will be a far better use of money than spending a couple of billion on shutting it down and rebuilding it as a tram line.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Really, you don't think a modern LRV could climb the Hope Valley Reservoir gradient? Also recall that the concrete guideway itself was only designed to last thirty years so in theory its life-expired.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: