Fast regional rail is the key to managing population growth

 

News article: Fast regional rail is the key to managing population growth

Victoria’s regional rail network deserves a rebuild.

  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
For what its worth here is an article for PTUA on the cost of road transport. THe article goes in considerable detail of the problems of finding road transports true cost.

One of the main problems in this argument is that in our society road transport is so widely used most people will go to significant lengths to minimise its cost.

Its widely believed though that road transport costs are considerably than the funds raised from fuel taxes.
The reality is that roads are paid for by users, as reflected in BITRE statistics.

Additionally, one needs to considers that local roads (eg. council funded) exist for purposes beyond transport (eg. access) and are required regardless of road use, and those statistics do not include any revenue from municipal sources.

By comparison, rail does not pay it's way - revenue need not meet expenditure (since the benefit of public transport use is reduced road expenditure), but even considering that, passenger contributions fall far short of necessary.  Rail cost recovery in Melbourne is only about 20%, in London it is closer to 90%.

What needs to change is the manner in which that revenue is collected, since at the moment expenses like registration unfairly favour those that use their cars more often, whilst fuel taxes advantage the wealthier who can afford more fuel efficient vehicles, whilst particularly disadvantaging those who may need to travel longer distances, but contribute in a limited manner to congestion (eg. regional and outer suburban users).
ZH836301
From Fed govt data,
Fuel excise has dropped from 1.6% of GDP in 2001 to ~1.0% last year.
Fuel economy improving by ~10% per decade for last 20 years, however expected to increase rapidly with Hybrid and EV technology roll out. Australia expected to have 20% EV by mid 2030's.

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  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Public charging stations for EVs could have some kind of "fuel tax" built in.  The problem is where the EV is recharged at home, particularly so if the charging comes from solar PV, or batteries which have been charged by solar PV, so that the electricity is not paid for.  Perhaps recharging at home should be configured via a register on a "smart meter", such that it must always come from the grid (if available), and would carry a "fuel tax" surcharge?  Problem remains for a house which is completely off-grid.

In the past, a fuel tax worked because all vehicles used "fuel", i.e. petrol, gas or diesel.  This is no longer the case, so ideally the existing fuel tax could be scrapped in favour of a tax on something which all vehicles must use, regardless of type.  The question is, what?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The simplest and most accurate method is distance based using the cars odometer and it's weight class. But then you have fraud to deal with and easily resolved by placing a $100k fine for each offence and confiscation of vehicle which is then crushed.

NZ use distance based for diesel consumption.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Linking a 400 page PDF without any warning or guidance as to which part is relevant should be illegal!
potatoinmymouth

When facts and figures are regularly supplied but constantly ignored you begin to lose the desire to do everything for those who lack the interest or intelligence to make use of them.

Besides, is it that hard to use an index, do I need to spoon feed adults?


Of course those numbers ignore broader economic costs of the road system. These are included in the PTUA's analysis, but that's probably questionable without also analysing the broader economic benefits of the road system.
potatoinmymouth

Typical of the PTUA, their 'analysis' dispenses with logic.
 
Including externalities like 'Land Use Cost' to try and create a non-existent shortfall is bonkers - regardless of PT use, roads are a basic requirement for access, and would exist regardless of road use.  It's similar to the expectation that the costs of municipal roads should be entirely born by road users, when their existence is not solely to satisfy road transport (though even with this assumption, there is no 'road deficit').

Of course, expecting road users to pay their way whilst public transport users get a free rise is entirely inequitable, particularly since public transport favours the wealthy, as the practicality of PT use is higher in the inner city, and for those working in the inner city.  Essentially such users are being subsidised by those for whom PT is impractical or non-existent.


Half ya luck! 46 minutes barely gets me from the city to Dandenong! But you already knew that, and I didn't write it to whinge.
DirtyBallast

Haven't you heard, if you fall under wires you aren't deserving of a reasonable service, but if you live in Upper Buttfrack Nowhere you have the right to campaign for an uninterrupted 200km/h journey into the city.

And of course to ask for you to pay your way towards it would be blasphemy.


The simplest and most accurate method is distance based using the cars odometer and it's weight class. But then you have fraud to deal with and easily resolved by placing a $100k fine for each offence and confiscation of vehicle which is then crushed.
RTT_Rules

The problem would still be the lack of accountability with regards to congestion.
  david harvey Station Master

Location: Eastern Victoria
Why all the expenditure on new rail lines and faster servicers clearly the answer is decentralisation.


Why do all the people have to rush to Melbourne to work when cheaper land and property is available outside of Melbourne.


Yes, the catch cry is decentralisation where big corporations are encouraged to move their head office to a provincial city.


There could be tens of thousands of people living in towns like Seymour, Ballan, Kyneton or North Geelong.


They don’t need to catch the train they can walk to work
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Why all the expenditure on new rail lines and faster servicers clearly the answer is decentralisation.


Why do all the people have to rush to Melbourne to work when cheaper land and property is available outside of Melbourne.


Yes, the catch cry is decentralisation where big corporations are encouraged to move their head office to a provincial city.


There could be tens of thousands of people living in towns like Seymour, Ballan, Kyneton or North Geelong.


They don’t need to catch the train they can walk to work
david harvey
Decentralisation has generally been a flop in Australia. I recall when Albury/Wodonga was the next big thing and nothing has essentially happened. Country towns are OK if you are into fly watching. I find them very bitchy and generally unwelcoming to newcomers. Especially when they realise you are better  off than they are. Bring money into a country town and your not a local its the tar and feathers for you. Victoria is the worse.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I think that synopsis is a bit unfair.

Rural towns by and large are fully aware that if they don't at least hold their own population wise, they are doomed.

There should be little, if any bitchiness these days when the world has changed and we are all connected by the Web and skills and school-age kids are necessary for the future.

Mike.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Decentralisation has generally been a flop in Australia. I recall when Albury/Wodonga was the next big thing and nothing has essentially happened. Country towns are OK if you are into fly watching. I find them very bitchy and generally unwelcoming to newcomers. Especially when they realise you are better  off than they are. Bring money into a country town and your not a local its the tar and feathers for you. Victoria is the worse.
nswtrains

Perhaps your attitude may have had something to do with your experiences in rural Australia.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Decentralisation has generally been a flop in Australia. I recall when Albury/Wodonga was the next big thing and nothing has essentially happened. Country towns are OK if you are into fly watching. I find them very bitchy and generally unwelcoming to newcomers. Especially when they realise you are better  off than they are. Bring money into a country town and your not a local its the tar and feathers for you. Victoria is the worse.
nswtrains
So, what, you moved into town and ran around telling all and sundry how much dosh you had? That sounds like a great way to make friends! Laughing

Now let's look at it from the other perspective. You've lived in a country town all your life. You went to school there, worked there and raised a family there. You have all the friends you could ever want, many of whom you went to school with and have known for decades. New bloke moves to town, are you going to drop everything and welcome him into the fold? Especially if he is just the next one in a long line of them that you have seen come and go in the last 10 years? Or are you going to keep on living your life with your lifelong friends as if nothing has happened?

Yes, moving to a country town can be lonely. The best thing to do is get involved in a local group like a brass band or tourist railway. Volunteer at local events like Easter parades and Twilight dinners. Or a heritage railway. Once people see what you have to offer they will welcome you. Not all of them mind but enough to give you a rich and fulfilling life.

And yes, I do speak from experience. I remember when I first went bush I spent a few years in Maldon before settling in Castlemaine. One of the locals I met down the pub one night told me that in Maldon there are around a third of houses that change hands frequently due to tree changers coming and going and then the other two thirds are long term folk who grew up in the town. And all the locals know which houses and people they are. And he was the one who said to me "why should I go out of my way to get to know you, you will be gone in 5 years", He was right but I didn't go far, just to the other end of the line.

BG
  david harvey Station Master

Location: Eastern Victoria
Why all the expenditure on new rail lines and faster servicers clearly the answer is decentralisation.
 on this are posting have stuck to the question that  was posed for but  your post is clearly not contributing

Why do all the people have to rush to Melbourne to work when cheaper land and property is available outside of Melbourne.
 Yes, the catch cry is decentralisation where big corporations are encouraged to move their head office to a provincial city.

 There could be tens of thousands of people living in towns like Seymour, Ballan, Kyneton or North Geelong.

 They don’t need to catch the train they can walk to work

david harvey


Decentralisation has generally been a flop in Australia. I recall when Albury/Wodonga was the next big thing and nothing has essentially happened. Country towns are OK if you are into fly watching. I find them very bitchy and generally unwelcoming to newcomers. Especially when they realise you are better off than they are. Bring money into a country town and your not a local its the tar and feathers you. _______________Victoria is the worse.


Yes ,I could agree with  NSWtrains that  Decentralisation has generally been a flop  but I wont.      

There have been 20 different persons reply to this posting, to the question “Regional rail is the key to managing population growth” Well the last 20 different persons to post information their posts  were technical, varied, forward thinking, gave solutions to problems and gave real time examples of the delays and disruptions. I could say you are all to serious. You all need to take a cold shower, it’s only a hobby, but don’t change for anybody that’s how  passionate contributors to RP can be.

By comparison, having a different idea on  Railpage can bring out the negative response from another person and that is okay for we should encourage fair and robust debate.  
                                          Its when the comments begin to degenerate and have nothing to do with the theme, in fact these comments are more like an annex. Which is an attachment or can be read as a standalone document.


Statements from Mr NSWtrain directed to david harvey post.


S     Country towns are OK if you are into fly watching.                                                                                                                        A     I don’t have time to watch flies as I am too busy volunteering with the local Country Fire     Authority that’s the CFA ,also president of the local RSL and on Football committee. This is called community. These no-fly poo here .  

 S.    I find them very bitchy and generally unwelcoming to newcomers.  
 A.   I bet you don’t know all the neighbours in your street in Double Bay, you would find them very   bitchy and generally unwelcoming to newcomers                                                  

S.       Especially when they realise you are better off than they are.  
   A…..    Yes I am better off than they are because I have Railpage                                                                                                        

S,        Bring money into a country town and you’re not a local its the tar and feathers you.                                                           A.      I’m sorry to hear of your experience . I gather it bought great shame to your town. I have never been Tar and Feathered, What was it like?                                                                                                                                                                                  

S.     Victoria is the worse.                                                                                                                                                                        A.      What sort of nonsense quote is this    What evidence have you collected?.


Well Mr NSWtrains  you  would have gotten all of the Railpage subscribers that live in a  country town off side with your comments, and those  poor misfortunate’s who live in Victoria ,may the  lord have mercy on their soul. If you wish to validate your contributions, it would be apricated if you would man up and use your real name instead of hiding behind an alias,
Thank you david harvey



  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The problem with many peoples views on roads here is that they forget how poorly passenger rail compares cost wise. Not sure where someone got the 38% on cost coverage but what we do know is that passenger rail makes only 20-25% cost recovery and that is only in the cities.

38% might not seem like much but that is quite a big chunk of the cost recovery and obviously doesn't include things like gst from car sales, insurance, registration and tolls which  should also count towards the cost recovery of the private motor vehicle.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Sims, A number of years back the then NSW govt published that Countrtlink had a 1/3 cost recovery but 25% of its revenue was cost recovery costs.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
So, what, you moved into town and ran around telling all and sundry how much dosh you had? That sounds like a great way to make friends! Laughing

Yes, moving to a country town can be lonely. The best thing to do is get involved in a local group like a brass band or tourist railway. Volunteer at local events like Easter parades and Twilight dinners. Or a heritage railway. Once people see what you have to offer they will welcome you. Not all of them mind but enough to give you a rich and fulfilling life.

And yes, I do speak from experience. I remember when I first went bush I spent a few years in Maldon before settling in Castlemaine. One of the locals I met down the pub one night told me that in Maldon there are around a third of houses that change hands frequently due to tree changers coming and going and then the other two thirds are long term folk who grew up in the town. And all the locals know which houses and people they are. And he was the one who said to me "why should I go out of my way to get to know you, you will be gone in 5 years", He was right but I didn't go far, just to the other end of the line.

BG
BrentonGolding

I decided on Ballan back in '82. I was living in Laverton.

I was driving from Geelong friends house to Castlemaine..grandparents house and I had an epiphany as I rounded a hill and saw the village at the foothills of the Divide on a sunny late Summer day.

Within three days I was back at the sole estate agent in town...I think there are now 6 and I bought my block, for $6k, 5 mins walk from the station

I had three criteria for where I was going to move to IF I left Laverton.

Had to have Melbourne TV...I used to watch commercial TV in those days and unfortunately Castlemaine only had channels 6, Ballarat and 8, Bendigo.

Had to have natural gas. I couldn't work in Melbourne and come home to a cold house and have to light a fire. Natural gas gave me the option of pre-setting the new fangled Vulcan Quasar gas heater to come on to warm the house. I've since adjusted to Ballan's climate and don't use the timer...though the heater still works 33 winters later. Smile

Had to have a commuter train service. In those days, Ballarat had one commuter train, unfortunately Castlemaine/Bendigo did not, so I didn't really have an option to live in Castlemaine and work in Melbourne...and I wasn't going to drive to Kyneton every morning.

My builder was the president of Ballan Lions Club...so he dragged me into the club and I'd never been in a club before. 33 years later...still in Ballan Lions; secretary for the past 10 years or so...and a few other local community groups like the Stationeers.

Volunteering is the key to acceptance in small towns...especially if you are single like me.

Mike.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

It's definitely easier to fit in to regional living if you grew up in it like I did and then returned 15 years later, and extended family is still around.

I left for the big smoke at the time when Regional Vic was being hollowed out after the "Kennett Cutbacks" and I was a young Uni grad looking for work. But returned to raise a family and also for the fact I already owned a house in Central Vic.

Worth it, though you have to be intentional in community involvement (church/club/playgroup/tourist railway... whatever) to include others socially which can be hard given the time pressures with family life...

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