Passenger plane goes down in ocean off Indonesia

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 29 Oct 2018 15:28
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Have any UK or European airlines or regulators grounded the 737 Max aircraft?

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Have any UK or European airlines or regulators grounded the 737 Max aircraft?
GeoffreyHansen
Yep and the list is growing.

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html

Boeing's share price drop is now on par with day after Sept'11 drop.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Just announced 38 minutes ago, FAA grounds 737 Max, grounding now effectively worldwide.

The next disaster for Boeing will be when the first airline cancels an order in favour of an A320neo. Others will quickly follow.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Just announced 38 minutes ago, FAA grounds 737 Max, grounding now effectively worldwide.

The next disaster for Boeing will be when the first airline cancels an order in favour of an A320neo. Others will quickly follow.
justapassenger
Might provide Airbus with a much needed 'lift' as it scrambles for new business post A380

BG
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Just announced 38 minutes ago, FAA grounds 737 Max, grounding now effectively worldwide.

The next disaster for Boeing will be when the first airline cancels an order in favour of an A320neo. Others will quickly follow.
Might provide Airbus with a much needed 'lift' as it scrambles for new business post A380

BG
BrentonGolding
There are only two players and both have previously suffered loss of sales and retaliatory action by unhappy airlines due to delays and groundings. The few sales of the B747-8i was in part due to the delay of the A380, Ethiopian Airlines bought A350's due to delays in B787 etc.

So yes Airbus has got a win this time, but they have also lost before.

Boeing 737-Max Project Management however should be lined up in front of the firing squad for allowing such a basic issue to sneak into production.  The 737-Max now has the world's worst safety record for a commercial Passenger Jet Aircraft, yes with time it will loose it.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Korea has also complied banning from he skies.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The 737-Max is now basically banned world wide until the Boeing fix is implemented and pilots trained.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
The plot thickens guys based on the below



and now wonder if Boeing knew about the issues but continued to allow the planes to fly.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The plot thickens guys based on the below



and now wonder if Boeing knew about the issues but continued to allow the planes to fly.
x31
A couple of points..................

It is very unlikely Boeing knew for certain there was a problem, there not completely stupid.

Software faults that cause a program to go on "an unknown excursion" are notoriously difficult to to track down as its usually caused by two or more unlikely events occuring either together or in a particular sequence. Such a situation is almost impossible to simulate as the number and timing of such events can be astronomical.

The more complex one makes something, ie the more pieces or steps on puts in the more unreliable a system will get.

Boeing has made a basic error in the 737 Max 8 aircraft, they have fitted heavier engines further back on the wings causing the aircraft to be tail heavy and instead of making a new wing and or engine mounts they have tried to cure the error in software. This is OK as long as the software is reliable (Note 1), sadly on the Max 8 this is NOT the case.

Note 1: The british Tornado fighter (and in fact most modern fighters) are intentionally made unstable so they can change direction VERY quickly, as built they would be unflyable. There rendered flyable by having a complex massively redundant computer system that flies the aircraft. The pilots controls input into this system telling the aircraft what the pilot wants it to do.

woodford
  M636C Minister for Railways

Boeing has made a basic error in the 737 Max 8 aircraft, they have fitted heavier engines further back on the wings causing the aircraft to be tail heavy and instead of making a new wing and or engine mounts they have tried to cure the error in software

All the information I've found suggests that the engines were actually moved forward and upward to accommodate their larger diameter. I have heard the statement about the engines being moved back but I've found nothing to support it. Something else might have altered the balance. The wing was altered between the 400 and 800 series but only the winglets were changed for the -8.

From Wikipedia

In mid-2011, the objective was to match the A320neo's 15% fuel burn advantage, but the initial reduction was 10–12%; it was later enhanced to 14.5%: the fan was widened from 61 inches to 69.4 inches by raising the nose gear and placing the engine higher and forward, the split winglet added 1–1.5%, a relofted tail cone 1% more and electronically controlling the bleed air system improves efficiency.

So it isn't  immediately clear why the extra concern about stalling required the new software....

Peter
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
More revelations overnight with a cockpit recording released of the last minutes of the plane where the pilots are trying to diagnose the problem where the stall system had engaged pointing the nose down.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Boeing has made a basic error in the 737 Max 8 aircraft, they have fitted heavier engines further back on the wings causing the aircraft to be tail heavy and instead of making a new wing and or engine mounts they have tried to cure the error in software

All the information I've found suggests that the engines were actually moved forward and upward to accommodate their larger diameter. I have heard the statement about the engines being moved back but I've found nothing to support it. Something else might have altered the balance. The wing was altered between the 400 and 800 series but only the winglets were changed for the -8.

From Wikipedia

In mid-2011, the objective was to match the A320neo's 15% fuel burn advantage, but the initial reduction was 10–12%; it was later enhanced to 14.5%: the fan was widened from 61 inches to 69.4 inches by raising the nose gear and placing the engine higher and forward, the split winglet added 1–1.5%, a relofted tail cone 1% more and electronically controlling the bleed air system improves efficiency.

So it isn't  immediately clear why the extra concern about stalling required the new software....

Peter
M636C
The point is they shifted the  centre of gravity, and that is a recipe  for disaster.

Bye the way about the modern fighters (and almost any modern combat aircraft), like the tornado, these are now so complex they usually only have a 50% availibility, tthe rest being in some kind of maintenence.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A couple of days ago on an ABC News TV early morning news show they had an Australian pilot on. He stated he had a friend that was pilot in charge of a 777 that was taking off behind the 737 Max 8 that crashed, his friend told him as soon as the MAX 8 got off the ground the pilot radioed to the tower he was getting unreliable airspeed indications. The Australian pilot stated this is the same as the  Lion air crash. He went on to say if the crew is very well trained the situation can be handled OK, he also stated that aircraft MUST be designed to be flown by ALL pilots not just the 10% who are well trained.

woodford
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Boeing has made a basic error in the 737 Max 8 aircraft, they have fitted heavier engines further back on the wings causing the aircraft to be tail heavy and instead of making a new wing and or engine mounts they have tried to cure the error in software

All the information I've found suggests that the engines were actually moved forward and upward to accommodate their larger diameter. I have heard the statement about the engines being moved back but I've found nothing to support it. Something else might have altered the balance. The wing was altered between the 400 and 800 series but only the winglets were changed for the -8.

From Wikipedia

In mid-2011, the objective was to match the A320neo's 15% fuel burn advantage, but the initial reduction was 10–12%; it was later enhanced to 14.5%: the fan was widened from 61 inches to 69.4 inches by raising the nose gear and placing the engine higher and forward, the split winglet added 1–1.5%, a relofted tail cone 1% more and electronically controlling the bleed air system improves efficiency.

So it isn't  immediately clear why the extra concern about stalling required the new software....

Peter
M636C
The engines were indeed moved forwards and upwards for the 737 MAX, not backwards.

This would suggest that the tendency to pitch up - the reason for adding the MCAS - is down to aerodynamic factors, not the weight distribution. My guess would be that the nozzle being up closer to the wing is causing the fast moving exhaust from the engine (fast moving = low pressure) to stall the wing at low speeds, where the exhaust from a traditional below-wing engine would be well clear of the wing.

Note 1: The british Tornado fighter (and in fact most modern fighters) are intentionally made unstable so they can change direction VERY quickly, as built they would be unflyable. There rendered flyable by having a complex massively redundant computer system that flies the aircraft. The pilots controls input into this system telling the aircraft what the pilot wants it to do.
woodford
You might be thinking of the Eurofighter Typhoon, which has largely replaced the Tornado.

The Panavia Tornado was developed by Germany, Britain and Italy in the late 1960s and early 197