Southern Cross to Spencer Street

 
  duttonbay Minister for Railways


In Europe most travel agents know nothing about rail travel. It is has become so easy now to book and print tickets online. Beside Deutsche Bahn, there is Trainline (best for France, SNCF can be difficult) and I have used OBB (Austria) the Czech and Italian rail companies. Last year I booked journeys online throughout England and Scotland but you need to pick up tickets at the station machine.  If you feel lost go to Man in Seat 61 https://www.seat61.com
It is a mine of information about world train travel and the owner is very helpful if you contact him and he does it as a hobby.
Do not use RailEurope. They were good 15 years ago but now they are a ripoff.
Brianr

In the UK I have recently booked tickets with the train operators direct. I then get PDF "print at home" tickets which can simply be displayed on a phone. The best thing is booking 84 days before travel, when there are a small number of tickets available at big discounts. A few days ago on the day booking opened (3am UK time, about midday here) I bought 2 first class tickets Edinburgh-Birmingham at a price about one-third of the regular standard (economy) fare. The same thing happens in Europe of you book with the railways - discounted fares when bookings open, which might be 30, 60 or 90 days depending on the country. I've bought tickets with the German, French, Spanish, Portugese, Italian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish railways in the last couple of years. All at a good discount, and generally with seat selection. In one or two places I needed to print the tickets at a station (in France) but that was no big deal - you can collect all of your tickets for a country at one station, not even one you are using if there is a convenient station to your accommodation. It's very easy to book your own train travel. In 2017 I booked Copenhagen-Berlin via Hamburg and the ferry with DSB (Denmark).

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  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
It's within walking distance from the docks.
"True Believers"
One minute you want a landmark to place it, and the next minute your so-called landmark is "within walking distance". Spencer Street isn't within walking distance - it's right there.
With your system, what are you going to call Flinders Street Station?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

It's within walking distance from the docks.
One minute you want a landmark to place it, and the next minute your so-called landmark is "within walking distance". Spencer Street isn't within walking distance - it's right there.
With your system, what are you going to call Flinders Street Station?
Valvegear
Maybe Botanical Gardens?
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Honestly the name shouldn't be Southern cross or Spencer street. The station should be renamed to Docklands.
It's not at Southern Cross. It's not at the docks. It is on Spencer Street.
Valvegear

Yeah, it could be anywhere between the Yarra and Dryburgh St (beyond North Melbourne station). The name 'Spencer Street' hardly identifies a specific location.

Its only virtue is that it has been in use for a long time, and was probably unofficially in use for even longer. That virtue is overvalued by us old farts; Spencer Street does not mean anything to younguns and people who arrived in Melbourne 'recently'. The group of old farts is constantly decreasing; the younguns constantly increasing.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Its only virtue is that it has been in use for a long time, and was probably unofficially in use for even longer. That virtue is overvalued by us old farts; Spencer Street does not mean anything to younguns and people who arrived in Melbourne 'recently'. The group of old farts is constantly decreasing; the younguns constantly increasing.
historian
As opposed to Southern Cross which means nothing to anyone. Unless of course you are old enough to remember the hotel that stood for a relatively short period of history on the old Eastern Market site. Nowhere near Spencer St. Maybe they should have named it Savoy Tavern Station.

Renaming Spencer St was a ridiculous vanity project undertaken by somebody who wanted to be remembered for something.

A great example of a WOFTAM, a government spending money where it need not have been spent while I'm sure other more worthy PT projects wend unfunded.

BG
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It's within walking distance from the docks.
One minute you want a landmark to place it, and the next minute your so-called landmark is "within walking distance". Spencer Street isn't within walking distance - it's right there.
With your system, what are you going to call Flinders Street Station?
Valvegear
First of all, Docklands is a suburb, and Southern Cross is right inside Docklands. I'm naming it after the suburb itself, not the docks.

The Docks itself is the central landmark of Docklands, which itself isn't too far from the station. But it's not the docks itself which is why I've decided to name it Docklands. It's because it's located in the suburb of Docklands.

Flinders Street station, could be renamed to Federation Square (landmark) or Melbourne Central (main station). But since this name is already been established into history and still is a good indicator where it is and would be no need to change, since it would be confusing to change the name of the most iconic station on the network. I just meant it's the best case scenario to choose it towards a location/landmark. It's perfectly fine to name it along the street it is located, but that's not always the best indicator where a station is located.

If Spencer Street station didn't get a change at all and remained as it is, I wouldn't change its name at all. But since it already got a name change and Docklands is a better name to reflect its location, this would a vast improvement over both of it's former names. This is definitely a name the government should use, if they want to pay the private consortium and do a whole rebranding of the stations name. But this is highly unlikely due to inconvenience for the government and passengers, compared with the benefits of having a better suited name for the station.

And yes the current Melbourne Central station doesn't have a good name either. That definitely should be changed to State Library.
  RedEyeExpress Locomotive Driver

Location: Melbourne
Savoy Tavern Station Laughing
Traditionally many stations were named after the road or street the tracks crossed at that spot, which made sense. Example: Chapel Street (Windsor).

Thar She Blue LaughingI'm not a silver Camry kind of guy either.
Mike, that's awesome you've got a Pacer. Is the one in the photo on Wikipedia you linked to your actual car? And just curious, how many two-door hardtop Pacers were made compared to the more common four-doors?
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
It's within walking distance from the docks.
One minute you want a landmark to place it, and the next minute your so-called landmark is "within walking distance". Spencer Street isn't within walking distance - it's right there.
With your system, what are you going to call Flinders Street Station?
First of all, Docklands is a suburb, and Southern Cross is right inside Docklands. I'm naming it after the suburb itself, not the docks.

The Docks itself is the central landmark of Docklands, which itself isn't too far from the station. But it's not the docks itself which is why I've decided to name it Docklands. It's because it's located in the suburb of Docklands.

Flinders Street station, could be renamed to Federation Square (landmark) or Melbourne Central (main station). But since this name is already been established into history and still is a good indicator where it is and would be no need to change, since it would be confusing to change the name of the most iconic station on the network. I just meant it's the best case scenario to choose it towards a location/landmark. It's perfectly fine to name it along the street it is located, but that's not always the best indicator where a station is located.

If Spencer Street station didn't get a change at all and remained as it is, I wouldn't change its name at all. But since it already got a name change and Docklands is a better name to reflect its location, this would a vast improvement over both of it's former names. This is definitely a name the government should use, if they want to pay the private consortium and do a whole rebranding of the stations name. But this is highly unlikely due to inconvenience for the government and passengers, compared with the benefits of having a better suited name for the station.

And yes the current Melbourne Central station doesn't have a good name either. That definitely should be changed to State Library.
True Believers
I believe the new station that will adjacent to Melbourne Central as part of Melbourne Metro  is to be called "State Library " so that name is taken . ?? LaTrobe street station may be a suggestion .
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Consider the inconvenience, not to mention cost, of changing a station's name.  Apart from the actual name boards at the station, you would have some or all of changes to:

Printed timetables
On line timetables
Destination rolls or displays on vehicles
PIDs at the station
PIDs and voice announcements at any number of other stations
PIDs and voice announcements inside vehicles  ("Now arriving at....." for example)
MYKI, so it will know about the new name
Driver and other staff training
Internal documentation and procedures that we don't even know about.

Much of it applicable to Metro and/or V/Line, depending on the station.

If a tram or bus goes to the station, you would also need similar changes to timetables, destination displays etc. for the tram or bus services.

There would also be other changes required.  Taxi drivers would need to be informed;  local councils may require the change to be reflected in their documentation or street names;  navigation devices such as tom toms would have to be updated, even the humble Melways and/or Vicroads would have to be changed for the next edition.

Have I forgotten anything?  I'm sure I have.  Just don't do it.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Lad Porter's list is exactly the reason why Spencer Street Station should never have been changed. Apart from all of the work that had to be done, the change achieved precisely nothing.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Consider the inconvenience, not to mention cost, of changing a station's name.  Apart from the actual name boards at the station, you would have some or all of changes to:

Printed timetables
On line timetables
Destination rolls or displays on vehicles
PIDs at the station
PIDs and voice announcements at any number of other stations
PIDs and voice announcements inside vehicles  ("Now arriving at....." for example)
MYKI, so it will know about the new name
Driver and other staff training
Internal documentation and procedures that we don't even know about.

Much of it applicable to Metro and/or V/Line, depending on the station.

If a tram or bus goes to the station, you would also need similar changes to timetables, destination displays etc. for the tram or bus services.

There would also be other changes required.  Taxi drivers would need to be informed;  local councils may require the change to be reflected in their documentation or street names;  navigation devices such as tom toms would have to be updated, even the humble Melways and/or Vicroads would have to be changed for the next edition.

Have I forgotten anything?  I'm sure I have.  Just don't do it.
Lad_Porter
If you want an extraordinary example of this, the ticket refund form on the V/Line website makes reference to the State Transport Authority, which has not existed for over 30 years. I'm sure there's a VR regulation sign or something out there doing continuing "official" service. Name changes take forever, confuse everyone, and waste uncountable amounts of time.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Its only virtue is that it has been in use for a long time, and was probably unofficially in use for even longer. That virtue is overvalued by us old farts; Spencer Street does not mean anything to younguns and people who arrived in Melbourne 'recently'. The group of old farts is constantly decreasing; the younguns constantly increasing.
Renaming Spencer St was a ridiculous vanity project undertaken by somebody who wanted to be remembered for something.
BrentonGolding
Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Changing the name to Southern Cross cost money, caused confusion, and had no benefit whatsoever.

But those who are arguing to change the name back are making exactly the same mistake.

It will cost more money, cause more confusion, and still have no benefit.

Get used to Southern Cross. That ship sailed long ago.

(ps I want my local station to go back to its proper, original, name of East Brighton. Do wonders for the house prices.)
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Its only virtue is that it has been in use for a long time, and was probably unofficially in use for even longer. That virtue is overvalued by us old farts; Spencer Street does not mean anything to younguns and people who arrived in Melbourne 'recently'. The group of old farts is constantly decreasing; the younguns constantly increasing.
Renaming Spencer St was a ridiculous vanity project undertaken by somebody who wanted to be remembered for something.
Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Changing the name to Southern Cross cost money, caused confusion, and had no benefit whatsoever.

But those who are arguing to change the name back are making exactly the same mistake.

It will cost more money, cause more confusion, and still have no benefit.

Get used to Southern Cross. That ship sailed long ago.

(ps I want my local station to go back to its proper, original, name of East Brighton. Do wonders for the house prices.)
historian

At least SCS wasn't named after a shopping centre as Watergardens & Melbourne Central are. I'll not criticise Southland as it was purpose built for the adjacent shopping centre.

Are there others Question

Mike.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Renaming Spencer St was a ridiculous vanity project undertaken by somebody who wanted to be remembered for something.

BG
BrentonGolding
Remember the Grampians name was changed to Gariwerd back in the very early 90's, was that, the mad Scottsman, Steve Crabb ?

BigShunter.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Renaming Spencer St was a ridiculous vanity project undertaken by somebody who wanted to be remembered for something.

BG
Remember the Grampians name was changed to Gariwerd back in the very early 90's, was that, the mad Scottsman, Steve Crabb ?

BigShunter.
BigShunter

The Kennett government in a moment of spite, there were so many, but I digress....rescinded Gariwerd as the Aboriginal name the visionary Kirner government was trying to change the Grampians name back to.

These days, we are more likely to say we are going to Uluru for a holiday and not 'Ayers Rock' as it was known as around 30 years ago.

Mike.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Just doing a bit of digging on the name change.  It was actually changed in December 2005, by the then Bracks Labor government, although apparently the change had been flagged four years earlier.  Here's a contemporary report from the Age, including alleged reasons for the change:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/times-up-at-last-for-railway-landmark-20051214-ge1f9p.html

Not unexpectedly, the change generated lots of discussion on Railpage at the time.  This old thread wanders off topic later on, but the first couple of pages are spot on:

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p222571.htm
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Just doing a bit of digging on the name change.  It was actually changed in December 2005, by the then Bracks Labor government, although apparently the change had been flagged four years earlier.  Here's a contemporary report from the Age, including alleged reasons for the change:
Lad_Porter
Reading those reasons just made me sick in my mouth.

What a pathetic attempt at a PR stunt.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I had more fun looking at the last posts of the contributors to the thread.

Apart from XXXXLBear...all have vanished without a trace, perhaps to Railba$tard which is in hibernation these days.

Mike.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
I had more fun looking at the last posts of the contributors to the thread.

Apart from XXXXLBear...all have vanished without a trace, perhaps to Railba$tard which is in hibernation these days.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Agree Mike, don't think I saw Valvegear in there, course he would have been about 75 back, then..........Razz

How about Bracksie, talk about confidence Plus;

Mr Bracks said that while the project had run overtime, it would still be completed in time for the Commonwealth Games.

"All good projects have some controversy," he said. "This has had some, and just as we look back at Federation Square and say, 'Gee, that was good', I'll tell you what — you're going to look at this thing and say, 'this is damn good'."


..........Razz    not in agreeance BG.........

BigShunter.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Agree Mike, don't think I saw Valvegear in there, course he would have been about 75 back, then..
"BigShunter"
Eh? What was that you said, young fella? You'll have to yell into me hearin' aid, I'm gettin' deaf in me ears. It was different back in 1939 when I was only 18.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Savoy Tavern Station Laughing
Traditionally many stations were named after the road or street the tracks crossed at that spot, which made sense. Example: Chapel Street (Windsor).

Thar She Blue LaughingI'm not a silver Camry kind of guy either.
Mike, that's awesome you've got a Pacer. Is the one in the photo on Wikipedia you linked to your actual car? And just curious, how many two-door hardtop Pacers were made compared to the more common four-doors?
RedEyeExpress

Hi, sorry I missed this post.

Yes it's my actual car, I bought it over 20 years ago when Pacers weren't cool and now $50,000+ later it's a bit more cool...and my wallet a bit lighter than it was.

Not sure how many hardtops were made, however it was only about half as many 4 door sedans. Moreover as the Pacer hardtop only came out in 1970, they are a very unique car.

One that survived a few decades in the desert...

https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/survivor-chrysler-vg-valiant-pacer-hardtop

Mike.
  RedEyeExpress Locomotive Driver

Location: Melbourne
Thanks Mike, noted. That Hot Mustard one outside Alice is quite a story!
Didn't know the Pacer hardtops were only VGs - I'd speculate that Chrysler thought it would help clear the remaining hardtop body shells ahead of the VH launch.

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