XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Holden was making a small car in addition to the commodore. The commodore had a v6 engine entry level car that if it was sold at $29,990 instead of $40,990 would have sold a hell of a lot more. The problem again was that we had a US moron in charge who was told to kill holden instead of saving it.

The US 'moron' is the US oriented Ambassador to the USA namely Joe Hockey, the author of the failed 2014 budget. The same conservative with a hatred of Wind energy as ScoMo and failure Joyce have a hatred of electric cars.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/toyota-scuppers-claim-labor-s-electric-vehicle-policy-would-leave-hilux-drivers-stranded-20190409-p51cit.html

Mike.

Holden didn't make electric cars so I am not sure what you are going on about. GM was just relying on government subsidies by that time and the government shouldn't subsidise a company when the money wasn't staying in the country and there was no direction going forward. GM is about to kill Holden off completely mainly because there useless american trucks don't sell here and the commodore no longer has an image.
simstrain

I have no 'need to go on about' electric cars as the dawn is only now just breaking on the future of our electric car world. Despite our draconian conservative government, the public are embracing E cars as we have always been early adopters, especially as prices drop through economies of scale and the economics of no more expensive servicing or $100.00+ fuel fill-ups both go by the wayside.

Unfortunately through failed Treasurer Hockey, Holden died off as a conventional car maker around 5 years ago and with it the enormous industry that manufactured parts for all three local manufacturers. Who knows where we could be by now with the development and possible early transition to our own E car industry, especially if we had a government that supported progressive industries which the conservatives, time and time again have proven they do not...renewable energy, battery storage and carbon pricing are but three glaring examples.

Shorten is supporting the creation of an E car industry because of the jobs it will provide, less fuel being imported, less carbon pollution and the renewable energy that will power them. But the initiative is well behind the eight ball...but at least his thinking is progressive and the uptake will more than beat Labor's 50% mandate of E cars by 2030.

We can only guess where we would be with the development of E cars if we still had a local industry. ScoMo now furiously back pedalling today after the linked Toyota report...he's such a charlatan and last century thinker whose time is well and truly over and the utter nonsense of tradies losing their utes under Labor is just sheer Trumpism.

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  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Until the vexed issue of renewable energy is sorted out between the states and federal government -  just look at the appalling result in Port Augusta, and SA in general -  electric cars will only be powered by rooftop solar.

Shorten, or whoever espouses green cars, by 2030 will need to sort this out first, because otherwise, people will really be staying home on weekends because the car will not be charged. Hopefully, the replacement XPT can solve that problem....

This energy conundrum, has seen many PMs out the door and although the ALP leadership swaps have been sorted, it can see out an entire govt thanks to a hostile Senate and a double dissolution.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

smeg. He stopped giving them subsidies and GM which was surviving solely on government money at the time didn't like this. The falcon was already gone with the falcon tanking to the point where it the only thing keeping the falcon plant running was police vehicles and a small amount of private buyers.

Hockey did the right thing since taxes should be for infrastructure and not for private companies. EDI and UGL saw the end coming and got in to the maintenance and parts business and working with overseas manufacturers.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
smeg. He stopped giving them subsidies and GM which was surviving solely on government money at the time didn't like this. The falcon was already gone with the falcon tanking to the point where it the only thing keeping the falcon plant running was police vehicles and a small amount of private buyers.

Hockey did the right thing since taxes should be for infrastructure and not for private companies. EDI and UGL saw the end coming and got in to the maintenance and parts business and working with overseas manufacturers.
simstrain

Hockey didn't care a damn about the workers and the image of him chomping on a Cuban with Corman after the failure that was the 2014 budgetbsummed it all up perfectly.

Had the auto plants kept going, all those wages would have been spent to help keep the economy buoyant and not be a drain on the public purse with unemployment benefits and teams of psychologists having to be employed, but stupid Hockey, Treasurer for 1 year couldn't see past his Abbott Budget and now we are left with the unemployment in Elizabeth SA.

https://profile.id.com.au/playford/employment-status?WebID=140

Moreover who can possibly say where we would have been regards E cars 5 years later...nobody has a crystal ball.

It's time you gave up on the conservatives for a few years. There are BIG changes coming and you may well, like the conservatives that will soon lose their seats and jobs...be left behind.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The 2014 budget wasn't a failure. It started australia back from the brink of financial ruin left before hand. Now in 2019 the debt has almost fully gone.

The economy is in a great place and employment is down. It is just that most of those jobs are not in manufacturing but warehousing these days.

Holden was only making about 20-30,000 cars a year by 2017 which is no where near enough to maintain a manufacturing plant. Ford was pretty much lucky to be making 10,000 falcons. The camry was also losing numbers even though it had an economical hybrid version.

Nothing of what you say would be the case because for some reason people stopped buying Australian cars. No government should keep pouring money in to a money pit. Some of those workers have now moved on to the aerospace industry making parts for the F-35, the new hobart class ships and the future hunter class ships. None of which is costing the Australian government money but actually making it money.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-22/victorian-manufacturing-jobs-rebound-into-high-tech-industy/10520342
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
Now in 2019 the debt has almost fully gone.
simstrain
Sorry to burst your bubble the debt is not gone and won't. They are talking about ending deficits.

All they are predicting is a surplus to start to reduce the debt. They are predicting a reduction of public sector debt down to 18.8% of GDP for 2019/20 (still a massive number).

The good news is that over $44B of surpluses over the next few years to reduce debt further, unless (until) the pollies of both sides plunder it to win the 2022 election and we will remain in deficit land and debt sitting around the 16 to 22% range of GDP.

However as a comparison public sector debt against GDP for the USA is 77.9%; Canada 27.2% and UK 77.6%. So we are going well. But there is no reserve if the global economy tanks as many predict.

KPMG Budget analysis

BTW, Most countries use debt for financing capital, not just equity (cash).
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Assuming that we could have made our own XPT replacements, can I ask why we wouldn't consider keeping the design of the XPT as it is? Ignoring its age, what is wrong with the actual design? [Yes, I understand that Comeng is not around and the original manufacturer in the UK may have moved on to other things now].

Maybe with a few streamlined changes in the original design, we could have had more of the same style of train except new, re-engineered power cars, with a different donk, and made new passenger carriages. We could have had a real home grown solution.

Look at what we did with the PH 101 Silver City Comet rail motor - drop in 6 GM Diesel motors when spare parts from the original engines dried up. When I saw these first hand at the Sulphide Street Museum in Broken Hill, I thought wow!

BTW - Who does GSR go to when they want additional carriages manufactured for the IP or the Ghan?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Assuming that we could have made our own XPT replacements, can I ask why we wouldn't consider keeping the design of the XPT as it is? Ignoring its age, what is wrong with the actual design? [Yes, I understand that Comeng is not around and the original manufacturer in the UK may have moved on to other things now].

Maybe with a few streamlined changes in the original design, we could have had more of the same style of train except new, re-engineered power cars, with a different donk, and made new passenger carriages. We could have had a real home grown solution.

Look at what we did with the PH 101 Silver City Comet rail motor - drop in 6 GM Diesel motors when spare parts from the original engines dried up. When I saw these first hand at the Sulphide Street Museum in Broken Hill, I thought wow!

BTW - Who does GSR go to when they want additional carriages manufactured for the IP or the Ghan?
ANR

DMU's are cheaper to operate and maintain. They use less fuel and are actually faster then the XPT because of faster acceleration and braking and have better handling. Because they don't have power cars at each end the train is shorter, lighter and can accelerate faster through all the steep inclines.

The dubbo service is being done by a 3 car Xplorer today 11/4/2019. It will actually be faster then the XPT because of these capabilities. The new fleet could possibly allow for 2 x 3 car services a day instead of only 1 x 4-5 car XPT service.

As I have said before, don't expect the Endeavours to be replaced on the hunter, southern highlands or the bomaderry services. Do expect them however to take over the Bathurst bullet and Goulburn services that go all the way in to Central station.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Holden was making a small car in addition to the commodore. The commodore had a v6 engine entry level car that if it was sold at $29,990 instead of $40,990 would have sold a hell of a lot more. The problem again was that we had a US moron in charge who was told to kill holden instead of saving it.
simstrain
Holden was white anted by GM due to power politics going on in Detroit and other places. The really high AUD didn't help either.

I have quite a few friends who used to work in Engineering at Fisherman's Bend. They worked on many LHD cars for the US market based on the same platform as the Commodore. The idea was that these would be made in Australia using excess capacity at Elizabeth and exported to the US and beyond.

They worked on the Camaro which ended up being built in Canadia despite Holden thinking they were going to get the gig. They worked on a brilliant Cop car which used the long wheelbase platform from the Statesman and doors from the ute from memory to make it easier to get in and out of, specially designed seats to leave room for the tool belt worn by US cops etc etc. It was nothing short of brilliant. They took it to shows in the US where police and other forces equipment is shown. The idea was to get it into the CHP and then others would follow. Everyone loved it. Except the US GM execs who killed the project off because they didn't want an Aussie car being the flagship cop car in the states.

Other models like the Pontiac G8 made by Holden and exported to the US were killed off after the GFC. That car should have been badged as a Chevy in the first place, it would have sold like hot cakes but oh no, the GM execs didn't want that, they badged it as a Pontiac and when GM killed off the Pontiac brand the Aussie car went with it just as it was starting to gain a foothold in the market.

Allegations of transfer pricing kept coming out of FB as well, especially that GM used subsidies paid to Holden to prop up it's ailing Mexican operation. The story that I was told was that Holden would be charged huge fees for intellectual property etc by the Mexican arm. This had the effect of reducing the profit made by Holden and thus lowering their tax bill. The $$$ sent to Mexico were enough to make it appear that this operation wasn't losing the $millions that it was bleeding at the time. The invoices were made up, there was no actual work done.

And in the end Mike Deveraux was sent to Austrailia to kill off local production at Holden. Everyone knew it. It takes 2+ years to engineer a new model and there was never any work done on the VF replacement. As soon as the hatchet job was complete Mike moved on to a plum job in China. In a few years he will no doubt be transferred back to the Motor City to take up a job very very high up the GM corporate ladder. If GM lasts that long.

Holden had some great head honchos over the years and some even arrived skeptical but left totally in love with the Aussie brand. One that I know of even took a couple of classic Holdens home with him. But no one liked Deveraux. Everyone knew that the writing was on the wall and that he would be the man to deliver the final blow.

BG
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Everything you said BG makes sense and Hockey knew this and what other choice could be made but to cancel the subsidy except to bury your head in the said and continue to subsidise GM mexico with no benefit to GM Holden.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

I have no 'need to go on about' electric cars as the dawn is only now just breaking on the future of our electric car world. Despite our draconian conservative government, the public are embracing E cars as we have always been early adopters, especially as prices drop through economies of scale and the economics of no more expensive servicing or $100.00+ fuel fill-ups both go by the wayside.

Unfortunately through failed Treasurer Hockey, Holden died off as a conventional car maker around 5 years ago and with it the enormous industry that manufactured parts for all three local manufacturers. Who knows where we could be by now with the development and possible early transition to our own E car industry, especially if we had a government that supported progressive industries which the conservatives, time and time again have proven they do not...renewable energy, battery storage and carbon pricing are but three glaring examples.

Shorten is supporting the creation of an E car industry because of the jobs it will provide, less fuel being imported, less carbon pollution and the renewable energy that will power them. But the initiative is well behind the eight ball...but at least his thinking is progressive and the uptake will more than beat Labor's 50% mandate of E cars by 2030.

We can only guess where we would be with the development of E cars if we still had a local industry. ScoMo now furiously back pedalling today after the linked Toyota report...he's such a charlatan and last century thinker whose time is well and truly over and the utter nonsense of tradies losing their utes under Labor is just sheer Trumpism.
The Vinelander
#Vinelander
Mike Mike Mike, your one eyed politics is really twisting your thinking.

You critised the govts actions or inactions regarding the failure of the car industry, however you didn't support the Industry yourself. Rather than buy a locally made Holden Cruz, you choose to buy "I paid over $60K for a fully optioned Works MINI Cooper S."

The local product wasn't good enough for you would "rather be dead than drive a silver car that blends in with all the other 'white goods' cars on the road". So local cars are good enough for others and the govt to use our subsidise with taxpayer moneys, but not for you?

Treasury Hockey was in power only a short time by the time the formal announcements came through and most of the damage occurred during the boom years before and after the GFC. Gllard/Rudd did nothing to protect the local manufacturing industry (any industry) and just sat back and watched the dollar destroy local industry.

In the case of Ford they were going for years and I think anyone who has been paying attention would say we were lucky to get this far with Ford. They nearly bailed with the AU and probably regret ever making the AU as they never truely recovered. Ford rejected offeres by the govt to build the Ranger in Australia and the Territory's biggest competition internationally was their own Ford Edge which made the Territory basically unexportable.  Ford will soon not make any sedan's having failed against the competition so the future in Australia was unstoppable.

Holden's departure was unstoppable thanks to a directive by the US govt, so you can thank your mate Obama for that one. However had they stayed what were they going to make? The Cruz has been killed off by GM due to poor sales against the Asian's and the Commodore was in steep decline.

Toyota was the only one with a chance but on their own no chance. ironically Toyota have no immediate plans to build an EV, something you are advocating as the future for Australia, so clearly clueless here. Toyota was considering building the Fortuner 2 in Aus, but the writting was on the wall so they said no. Again not an EV.

Fuel economy is improving and fuel consumption is declining per capita and at the moment the only spare energy available is actually coal and at the current prices thanks to ALP's govts killing off coal power the cost effectiveness on energy is simply marginal. EV uses about 30-40kW/100km = $9/100km, $15 in SA. The latest standard "white goods" Camry uses around $9-12/100km. With EV's using 2-3 x the average house hold power consumption per day and few able to capitalise on home PV to charge them, watch power prices continue to rise.

As for reducing CO2, please don't be preaching this while owning a  "1970 Valiant Pacer", unless you are prepared to get it EV converted, but then again this would destroy "subtle as a sledge hammer" sound. But also remember as sexy as your Mini S is, the fuel economy and hence CO2 emissions lacks that of other smaller cars such as Holden Cruz or better still a classic hybrid "white goods" Prius, so again if CO2 was so important lead by example, not do as I say.

...and no you don't subsidise an industry just to secure jobs, not unless you are preaching from Karl Marx how to be a socialist and destroy an economy handbook. There must be a longterm plan for the industry to stand on its own two feet or required for strategic reasons, if not, you let it go and develop a replacement industry. The current unemployment rates demonstrate this has been successful. Also noting there are few car manufacturing in developed country's unless the vehicles are nice or high end models. The "white goods" cars are now all in developing and low cost country's, why the American's are getting out of sedan production despite Trump's chest beating. Meanwhile Australia still retains an active and highly regarded car design capability designing such cars as Fortuner 2, Camaro etc.

Australia will not be producing mass produced EV's, others will do it cheaper unless we are willing to work for alot less.

As for Shorten's "taking the Tradies Utes"? Why not believe it? The ALP have been preaching for years the LNP will privatise Medicare, so if the ALP say it it must be true. So unless you are telling me the ALP is lying on Medicare, then are they lying over the Tradies Utes? Julia lied about the CO2 tax which increased the cost of running the humble ute and their power prices.

  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Now in 2019 the debt has almost fully gone.
Sorry to burst your bubble the debt is not gone and won't. They are talking about ending deficits.

All they are predicting is a surplus to start to reduce the debt. They are predicting a reduction of public sector debt down to 18.8% of GDP for 2019/20 (still a massive number).

The good news is that over $44B of surpluses over the next few years to reduce debt further, unless (until) the pollies of both sides plunder it to win the 2022 election and we will remain in deficit land and debt sitting around the 16 to 22% range of GDP.

However as a comparison public sector debt against GDP for the USA is 77.9%; Canada 27.2% and UK 77.6%. So we are going well. But there is no reserve if the global economy tanks as many predict.

KPMG Budget analysis

BTW, Most countries use debt for financing capital, not just equity (cash).
Big J
IF I recall the budget is in surplus now, actually occurred a few months back, just the year average puts us in deficit.
  Travelling Hooker Locomotive Fireman

Location: Follows the weather up and down the coast
Well, if I can get a cabin to myself I will do the sleeper run up to Sydney next week. Might be the last time. New trains, no sleepers. Understand why but it’s kind of a shame.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Well, if I can get a cabin to myself I will do the sleeper run up to Sydney next week. Might be the last time. New trains, no sleepers. Understand why but it’s kind of a shame.
Travelling Hooker
Sorry, I don't understand why there will be no sleepers, particularly on the intercapital overnight journeys.

Lemme guess... it is that because it will take 3 hours for the Spanish CAF trains to get from Sydney to Melbourne. I am impressed already.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

I have no 'need to go on about' electric cars as the dawn is only now just breaking on the future of our electric car world. Despite our draconian conservative government, the public are embracing E cars as we have always been early adopters, especially as prices drop through economies of scale and the economics of no more expensive servicing or $100.00+ fuel fill-ups both go by the wayside.

Unfortunately through failed Treasurer Hockey, Holden died off as a conventional car maker around 5 years ago and with it the enormous industry that manufactured parts for all three local manufacturers. Who knows where we could be by now with the development and possible early transition to our own E car industry, especially if we had a government that supported progressive industries which the conservatives, time and time again have proven they do not...renewable energy, battery storage and carbon pricing are but three glaring examples.

Shorten is supporting the creation of an E car industry because of the jobs it will provide, less fuel being imported, less carbon pollution and the renewable energy that will power them. But the initiative is well behind the eight ball...but at least his thinking is progressive and the uptake will more than beat Labor's 50% mandate of E cars by 2030.

We can only guess where we would be with the development of E cars if we still had a local industry. ScoMo now furiously back pedalling today after the linked Toyota report...he's such a charlatan and last century thinker whose time is well and truly over and the utter nonsense of tradies losing their utes under Labor is just sheer Trumpism.#Vinelander
Mike Mike Mike, your one eyed politics is really twisting your thinking.

You critised the govts actions or inactions regarding the failure of the car industry, however you didn't support the Industry yourself. Rather than buy a locally made Holden Cruz, you choose to buy "I paid over $60K for a fully optioned Works MINI Cooper S."

The local product wasn't good enough for you would "rather be dead than drive a silver car that blends in with all the other 'white goods' cars on the road". So local cars are good enough for others and the govt to use our subsidise with taxpayer moneys, but not for you?

Treasury Hockey was in power only a short time by the time the formal announcements came through and most of the damage occurred during the boom years before and after the GFC. Gllard/Rudd did nothing to protect the local manufacturing industry (any industry) and just sat back and watched the dollar destroy local industry.

In the case of Ford they were going for years and I think anyone who has been paying attention would say we were lucky to get this far with Ford. They nearly bailed with the AU and probably regret ever making the AU as they never truely recovered. Ford rejected offeres by the govt to build the Ranger in Australia and the Territory's biggest competition internationally was their own Ford Edge which made the Territory basically unexportable.  Ford will soon not make any sedan's having failed against the competition so the future in Australia was unstoppable.

Holden's departure was unstoppable thanks to a directive by the US govt, so you can thank your mate Obama for that one. However had they stayed what were they going to make? The Cruz has been killed off by GM due to poor sales against the Asian's and the Commodore was in steep decline.

Toyota was the only one with a chance but on their own no chance. ironically Toyota have no immediate plans to build an EV, something you are advocating as the future for Australia, so clearly clueless here. Toyota was considering building the Fortuner 2 in Aus, but the writting was on the wall so they said no. Again not an EV.

Fuel economy is improving and fuel consumption is declining per capita and at the moment the only spare energy available is actually coal and at the current prices thanks to ALP's govts killing off coal power the cost effectiveness on energy is simply marginal. EV uses about 30-40kW/100km = $9/100km, $15 in SA. The latest standard "white goods" Camry uses around $9-12/100km. With EV's using 2-3 x the average house hold power consumption per day and few able to capitalise on home PV to charge them, watch power prices continue to rise.

As for reducing CO2, please don't be preaching this while owning a  "1970 Valiant Pacer", unless you are prepared to get it EV converted, but then again this would destroy "subtle as a sledge hammer" sound. But also remember as sexy as your Mini S is, the fuel economy and hence CO2 emissions lacks that of other smaller cars such as Holden Cruz or better still a classic hybrid "white goods" Prius, so again if CO2 was so important lead by example, not do as I say.

...and no you don't subsidise an industry just to secure jobs, not unless you are preaching from Karl Marx how to be a socialist and destroy an economy handbook. There must be a longterm plan for the industry to stand on its own two feet or required for strategic reasons, if not, you let it go and develop a replacement industry. The current unemployment rates demonstrate this has been successful. Also noting there are few car manufacturing in developed country's unless the vehicles are nice or high end models. The "white goods" cars are now all in developing and low cost country's, why the American's are getting out of sedan production despite Trump's chest beating. Meanwhile Australia still retains an active and highly regarded car design capability designing such cars as Fortuner 2, Camaro etc.

Australia will not be producing mass produced EV's, others will do it cheaper unless we are willing to work for alot less.

As for Shorten's "taking the Tradies Utes"? Why not believe it? The ALP have been preaching for years the LNP will privatise Medicare, so if the ALP say it it must be true. So unless you are telling me the ALP is lying on Medicare, then are they lying over the Tradies Utes? Julia lied about the CO2 tax which increased the cost of running the humble ute and their power prices.
RTT_Rules

I decided not to castrate your comments Shane and to leave them in-situ in the context in which you wrote them.

However, read this...

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/toyota-hilux-to-go-electric

Then continue...

You are generally correct where your comments are related to me personally and I bought my MINI, because despite being a PT user, and advocate, I'm also a car guy.

Car guys and to a lesser degree, gals acquire and operate cars that are unique, classic, iconic etc...and they keep them in perfect operating condition because that what car people do.

Have a look at Jay Leno's garage for a bit of an idea...



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQMELFlXQL38KPm8kM-4Adg

Most car people would consider Aussie cars built in the muscle car era, say from 1967 to 1972, particularly Falcon GT's, Holden Monaro's or Valiant Pacer/Chargers to be appreciating in value assets and in many cases they are rolling works of art because of their presence and the attraction they have within the classic car fraternity.

Moreover the later years of Holden's, the re-launched GTS Monaro's of 15 years ago and Holden Special Vehicles (HSV's) are already classic cars in their own right. Though many are leased for the image and status it gives the driver...but I digress.

However I'm not a GM guy, I'm a Chrysler guy. I drive my Chrysler around 1500 Km a year, possibly less. This would be the equivalent in emissions to a modern car operating over say...3 months.

Despite PM ScoMo's nonsense about tradies and their Rangers etc being forced off the roads if (when) Bill is elected, we all know this is just utter nonsense from a government that is down for the count.

In the case of my MINI, I wanted to drive an iconic vehicle when I bought is almost 15 years ago in 2004 which cost me over $60K on my humble public servants wage and I knew when I bought it that I wouldn't be selling it...Therefore I won't be disposing of my car to update it with another unless it completely 'fails to proceed' to use Rolls Royce terminology.
By not selling it I'm not adding to the consumerism regards disposing of vehicles, breaking them down to their basic parts and the energy consumed in making new cars.

Moreover the MINI, despite being 15 years old and a super-charged 'pocket rocket', though somewhat less so now as engines have further developed in the past 15 years, it's also a relatively low emissions vehicle despite its age, it only averages around 9,000 Km a year...so again I drive LESS than the average motorist even though I commute 160 Km a day to travel to work and often on weekends as well for recreation.

However MOST people do not think like me for many reasons and they are not after anything more from their vehicle than a basic, cheap, reliable mode of private transport to do what the average family or others want out of their average vehicle. In the near future, that's going to be an E vehicle, because that's the way we are headed and E Vehicles will become cheaper to operate than petrol (emissions) powered vehicles and that's when the change will occur.

To wrap up...most modern vehicles are normally parked outside in all weathers, rarely if ever washed, waxed, polished and detailed unless it by a team of others when the time comes for a shopping expedition and a team of workers set get to work on it ...and after three years, because the lease runs out or the owners are concerned its value will drop too much, they trade it in on another.

That's NOT me.

Apologies for hijacking the thread...let's get back on track.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Well if the ARTC could actually get the north east to a good enough standard and trains could operate at 160km/h or faster instead of 130km/h then that could take an hour off the journey. But you will probably find the new trains will be quicker in the twisty bits and so look for a minimum 1 hour reduction to that time as well.

Oh and vinelander that article is about hybrid utes and not fully electric ones.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Semantics...
Let me out this in a way that can easily be understood by all...

You are barracking for the losing team. Due to a number of injuries and other factors they will lose the Grand Final...

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Semantics...
Let me out this in a way that can easily be understood by all...

You are barracking for the losing team. Due to a number of injuries and other factors they will lose the Grand Final...

Mike.
The Vinelander

What does hybrid and electric cars and the XPT replacement have to do with what team I am backing? Your still salty because your team lost in NSW and you don't understand why.

As for the XPT and Xplorer replacement it will make things much more efficient for NSW trainlink to operate and I also wouldn't suggest that there will only be 117 carriages total as I'm sure more could be added in an announcement before the next NSW election.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE


I decided not to castrate your comments Shane and to leave them in-situ in the context in which you wrote them.

However, read this...

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/toyota-hilux-to-go-electric

Then continue...

You are generally correct where your comments are related to me personally and I bought my MINI, because despite being a PT user, and advocate, I'm also a car guy.

Car guys and to a lesser degree, gals acquire and operate cars that are unique, classic, iconic etc...and they keep them in perfect operating condition because that what car people do.

Have a look at Jay Leno's garage for a bit of an idea...

Most car people would consider Aussie cars built in the muscle car era, say from 1967 to 1972, particularly Falcon GT's, Holden Monaro's or Valiant Pacer/Chargers to be appreciating in value assets and in many cases they are rolling works of art because of their presence and the attraction they have within the classic car fraternity.

Moreover the later years of Holden's, the re-launched GTS Monaro's of 15 years ago and Holden Special Vehicles (HSV's) are already classic cars in their own right. Though many are leased for the image and status it gives the driver...but I digress.

However I'm not a GM guy, I'm a Chrysler guy. I drive my Chrysler around 1500 Km a year, possibly less. This would be the equivalent in emissions to a modern car operating over say...3 months.

Despite PM ScoMo's nonsense about tradies and their Rangers etc being forced off the roads if (when) Bill is elected, we all know this is just utter nonsense from a government that is down for the count.

In the case of my MINI, I wanted to drive an iconic vehicle when I bought is almost 15 years ago in 2004 which cost me over $60K on my humble public servants wage and I knew when I bought it that I wouldn't be selling it...Therefore I won't be disposing of my car to update it with another unless it completely 'fails to proceed' to use Rolls Royce terminology.
By not selling it I'm not adding to the consumerism regards disposing of vehicles, breaking them down to their basic parts and the energy consumed in making new cars.

Moreover the MINI, despite being 15 years old and a super-charged 'pocket rocket', though somewhat less so now as engines have further developed in the past 15 years, it's also a relatively low emissions vehicle despite its age, it only averages around 9,000 Km a year...so again I drive LESS than the average motorist even though I commute 160 Km a day to travel to work and often on weekends as well for recreation.

However MOST people do not think like me for many reasons and they are not after anything more from their vehicle than a basic, cheap, reliable mode of private transport to do what the average family or others want out of their average vehicle. In the near future, that's going to be an E vehicle, because that's the way we are headed and E Vehicles will become cheaper to operate than petrol (emissions) powered vehicles and that's when the change will occur.

To wrap up...most modern vehicles are normally parked outside in all weathers, rarely if ever washed, waxed, polished and detailed unless it by a team of others when the time comes for a shopping expedition and a team of workers set get to work on it ...and after three years, because the lease runs out or the owners are concerned its value will drop too much, they trade it in on another.

That's NOT me.

Apologies for hijacking the thread...let's get back on track.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike
My point was that any BS from the ALP or other who think Australia can be a Mecca of EV production has rocks in their head. The reason the car industry failed in Australia is mostly driven by people like you choosing not to buy local made. I'm not critising your choice, but YOU and millions others made that choice and hence the car assembly industry is now history and if you don't understand the reason why, don't go blaming Hockey or anyone else but the one in the mirror.

The only way the car industry could be saved is by punitive tariffs on the competition like we had in the past and with it we would likely get the crappy quality that Australian cars were reknown for. You wouldn't be able to buy your dream Mini and others their Audi's.

As I said before, ironically the only one of the three that potentially could have been saved if others were still here is Toyota and Toyota is not backing the EV movement rather seeing a future in Hybrids. Your reference to an EV Hilux shows how disconnected you are to this part of the car industry. There is a significant advantage to having a hybrid for trade/camping in that the battery can be used as a heavy duty power supply for tools/lights etc, Ford has done this with the F150, I suspect Toyota will not miss this opportunity either.

I have no issue in you or anyone retaining your piece of car history (and yes I'd be also staring and admiring the noise at it as you drove past, a guy I don't know just took me for a drive in a hotted up Mustang to show off his proud beast) and the distance you drive is irrelevant to me, but be advised more than one political world leader believes the future in EV's is by taxing petrol to higher levels than today to provide the equal playing field.

Yes the Mini's profile makes it low on fuel consumption for its class.

Will Shorten take away the Tradies Ute's, unlikely if he did he'd be repeating the CO2 tax all over again and the next LNP PM would get in on the backbone of returning the Utes. Part of the reason alot of people don't trust BS on this is because he and ALP has a history of undercutting the people they are supposed to protect in regard to CO2 tax, penalty rates etc. The ALP have a history of throwing up Mediscare every election and part of the uneducated part of the ALP support grow buy this hook, line and sinker, its about time the LNP through a few back.

EV's will not become cheaper to operate in Australia for many years yet due to the power price issues. Remember alot of country's including the UAE that are seeing large scale support for EV's even without govt subsidies is because they recharge them on power that costs less than 10-15c/kWh for the user. In the East Coast, many are paying way more. If you compare to NZ where they are seeing large scale commercial charging stations being rolled out, the mark-up on power is significant but still cheaper than petrol. In Australia this would make EV more costly per km to operate.

Back to trains, the high power prices is not helping the economics of more electric traction and even HSR and committing to 100% doesn't make it any cheaper. The XPT could have been made here, but our labour costs are too high.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Semantics...
Let me out this in a way that can easily be understood by all...

You are barracking for the losing team. Due to a number of injuries and other factors they will lose the Grand Final...

Mike.
The Vinelander
I think most people are fully aware the LNP is unlikely to be returned in the election and the Abbott/Turnbull BS, infighting, back stabbing is reason enough to justify the LNP's departure. Unfortunately their hardwork to balance the budget will again be enjoyed by ALP, who most likely again will hand the reins back to the LNP in the future with alot of red ink and a mountain of debt.

Of all the PM's since Howard, I think SCOMO is probably the best one of the lot and I suspect better than what BS will have to offer. Not saying he is a great PM, just the better one of all the ones on offer.

I know on election night you will be partying, but remember this. You voted for a PM that cut penalty rates to his own workers, a party that cut penalty rates without public debate and the list goes on.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Semantics...
Let me out this in a way that can easily be understood by all...

You are barracking for the losing team. Due to a number of injuries and other factors they will lose the Grand Final...

Mike.
I think most people are fully aware the LNP is unlikely to be returned in the election and the Abbott/Turnbull BS, infighting, back stabbing is reason enough to justify the LNP's departure. Unfortunately their hardwork to balance the budget will again be enjoyed by ALP, who most likely again will hand the reins back to the LNP in the future with alot of red ink and a mountain of debt.
RTT_Rules

Sorry Shane, like others the conservatives have succeeded in brainwashing you ....and to further hijack this thread, please read the below article and I've highlighted same.

https://www.theage.com.au/federal-election-2019/morrison-s-hammer-v-shorten-s-allen-key-20190412-p51dos.html

Along the lines the Prime Minister used on the Today show on Friday: "What I know is, if you can't manage money – and Labor can't manage money – then you can't run the country." And then he will revert to the central importance of a "strong economy".

Add to shortlis


There are a few inconvenient truths for Morrison in some of his claims about Labor and a strong economy. For instance, Labor successfully managed to keep the economy growing the last time it held office. In fact, Australia's was only one of two developed economies in the world, with Canada's, to keep growing during the global financial crisis.

And the "strong economy" that Morrison happens to preside over is actually weakening at this very moment. As for managing money, the Coalition took power with Australia's net federal debt at the equivalent of 13 per cent of GDP. This financial year it stands at 19 per cent, according to the government's latest federal budget papers. And not during a global crisis but during a recovery. That's a debt blowout of 1 percentage point of GDP a year, equal to some $17 billion a year.

But, of course, the campaign pitches are not about objective truth, they are about political messaging.

Mike.
  UpperQuad Locomotive Fireman

Location: 184.8 miles to Sydney
Can we get back to XPT Replacement Discussion, and take all this other waffle to The Lounge?
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Much agreed, let's stick to the XPT.

While we wait for the CAF, will the XPT sets get a new livery that is consistent with NSW Trains? The blues, whites and yellows look like the train is a loaner from somewhere interstate.

I did like the older original Countrylink livery. Have never warmed to the current paint job.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Much agreed, let's stick to the XPT.

While we wait for the CAF, will the XPT sets get a new livery that is consistent with NSW Trains? The blues, whites and yellows look like the train is a loaner from somewhere interstate.

I did like the older original Countrylink livery. Have never warmed to the current paint job.
ANR

NSW is so inconsistent. At least in Victoria we have had one name for our regional PT provider in 35 years...surely some kind of world record...apart from AMTRAK.

How many corporate names has the NSWGR had since the introduction of the XPT thirty years ago...and now I hear there's another name change in the pipeline Question

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Much agreed, let's stick to the XPT.

While we wait for the CAF, will the XPT sets get a new livery that is consistent with NSW Trains? The blues, whites and yellows look like the train is a loaner from somewhere interstate.

I did like the older original Countrylink livery. Have never warmed to the current paint job.
ANR

Not likely to happen since the XPT is going to be retired very soon. Even though the regional train says that it should be here in 2023 I wouldn't be surprised if it is here earlier.

As for the livery I think they were all unique and representative of who was in leadership at the time. So long as the service is provided what does it matter what the name of the service is called.

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