Work Starts To Get VLocity Trains For The North East Line

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Aug 2018 10:40
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I cannot see what most are going on about here Kuldalai, has ALREADY stated the long distance VLocity's are getting buffets be it SG or BG, and in reality trains on runs like Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo etc are to short for a buffet service. Who the hell would put a buffet on a Frankston line train. Why does this mean VLine managment is missing something, it seems do me on this they are doing what is right.

woodford

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  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?

  • Irregular set length, which complicates infrastructure design
  • Irregular set composition, which reduces operational flexibility
  • High installation costs
  • High operational losses
  • Relatively short journey times compared with NSW services

Standard-gauge VLocity sets will end up with buffet modules as they are destined to operate on a distinct network with no possibility of being switched out at short notice to different lines. This network is also wholly immune to notions of opportunity cost or economic reason.

Your best bet for broad-gauge VLocitys is either vending machines or ambulant catering, though I wouldn't hold my breath.
NimbleJack
It would be a retrograde step in service if lines such as Shepparton , and Swan Hill that currently have on board catering cease to offer this .
The journey times are long enough to warrant it .
Is this likely to significantly alter with the introduction of Vlocities ?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Shepparton will become comparable with Bendigo, which has not had catering for many years.

Swan Hill is a very long way from VLocity services.

With the overweight Vlocities that V/Line have accepted, there are going to be cars that are restricted to one line anyway. A Vlocity with a buffet needing to do the Warrnambool run is really no different to making sure an N+N set turns up there. If they are always rostered on forming and running long distances services there wont be any confusion.

Set runs are allocated set cars, as they have to filter through maintenance. It's not like a driver goes to the yard and picks whatever set they want to run the service with that day.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?

  • Irregular set length, which complicates infrastructure design
  • Irregular set composition, which reduces operational flexibility
  • High installation costs
  • High operational losses
  • Relatively short journey times compared with NSW services

Standard-gauge VLocity sets will end up with buffet modules as they are destined to operate on a distinct network with no possibility of being switched out at short notice to different lines. This network is also wholly immune to notions of opportunity cost or economic reason.

Your best bet for broad-gauge VLocitys is either vending machines or ambulant catering, though I wouldn't hold my breath.
NimbleJack

Complete nonsense Exclamation

We have already established that the union has had discussions regards the conditions expected for the staff operating in the buffet module.

AND

People expect refresh on a 1 hour flight to Sydney...what makes a 3.5 hour journey any less deserving of providing a half reasonable refresh service Question

Mike
  NimbleJack Station Master

If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?

  • Irregular set length, which complicates infrastructure design
  • Irregular set composition, which reduces operational flexibility
  • High installation costs
  • High operational losses
  • Relatively short journey times compared with NSW services

Standard-gauge VLocity sets will end up with buffet modules as they are destined to operate on a distinct network with no possibility of being switched out at short notice to different lines. This network is also wholly immune to notions of opportunity cost or economic reason.

Your best bet for broad-gauge VLocitys is either vending machines or ambulant catering, though I wouldn't hold my breath.
It would be a retrograde step in service if lines such as Shepparton , and Swan Hill that currently have on board catering cease to offer this .
The journey times are long enough to warrant it .
Is this likely to significantly alter with the introduction of Vlocities ?
Crossover

Indeed. And if you happen to be passing through Gippsland next spring, do put aside a few minutes to admire the spectacular flowerbeds around Bairnsdale station. They're fertilised with the bodies of famished unfortunates who perished on the four-hour VLocity journey from Southern Cross.

Plenty more where they came from, too. The last N-set service out that way, 8410/8427, should be gone by the end of the year. It's mostly a matter of figuring out feral-proof overnight stabling arrangements for a six-car VLocity in Bairnsdale yard.

Someone else mentioned the overweight VLocitys, 76-79. Although still marooned in the storage yard near E-Gate, with luck they will enter revenue service before winter. Once they do, don't expect them to be restricted to the Geelong line. Those purple fatties will be turning up in Ararat and Traralgon before you know it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?

  • Irregular set length, which complicates infrastructure design
  • Irregular set composition, which reduces operational flexibility
  • High installation costs
  • High operational losses
  • Relatively short journey times compared with NSW services

Standard-gauge VLocity sets will end up with buffet modules as they are destined to operate on a distinct network with no possibility of being switched out at short notice to different lines. This network is also wholly immune to notions of opportunity cost or economic reason.

Your best bet for broad-gauge VLocitys is either vending machines or ambulant catering, though I wouldn't hold my breath.
NimbleJack
I agree with all your points as they are true but aside from those reasons what is the difficulty in this new SG vlocity having a buffet when the Xplorer has a buffet. The vlocity is just an updated version of the Xplorer from a technical stand point after all.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Shepparton will become comparable with Bendigo, which has not had catering for many years.

Swan Hill is a very long way from VLocity services.

With the overweight Vlocities that V/Line have accepted, there are going to be cars that are restricted to one line anyway. A Vlocity with a buffet needing to do the Warrnambool run is really no different to making sure an N+N set turns up there. If they are always rostered on forming and running long distances services there wont be any confusion.

Set runs are allocated set cars, as they have to filter through maintenance. It's not like a driver goes to the yard and picks whatever set they want to run the service with that day.
TOQ-1

In what universe are the vlocity's overweight. If the line can take a 123 tonne N class loco then it can easily handle a vlocity.
  sthyer Deputy Commissioner

People expect refresh on a 1 hour flight to Sydney...what makes a 3.5 hour journey any less deserving of providing a half reasonable refresh service Question

Mike
The Vinelander
It's not so much that people expect refreshments on a 1 hour flight, but the requirement of cabin crew to passenger ratio (in the USA 1:50) means that serving food and drinks to passengers is a good way to value add from crew who would otherwise spend most of the flight sitting down. A 737-800 needs 4 cabin crew, so they get put to good use. I regularly fly Syd to Mel and couldn't care less for a drink or nibble, but happily accept it because it's offered.

But you're right, people do have a reasonable expectation for a food and drink service. If the buffet person can serve a dual role in assisting the conductor where required, plus take over from the conductor in the event of incapacitation, all the better.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Shepparton will become comparable with Bendigo, which has not had catering for many years.

Swan Hill is a very long way from VLocity services.

With the overweight Vlocities that V/Line have accepted, there are going to be cars that are restricted to one line anyway. A Vlocity with a buffet needing to do the Warrnambool run is really no different to making sure an N+N set turns up there. If they are always rostered on forming and running long distances services there wont be any confusion.

Set runs are allocated set cars, as they have to filter through maintenance. It's not like a driver goes to the yard and picks whatever set they want to run the service with that day.

In what universe are the vlocity's overweight. If the line can take a 123 tonne N class loco then it can easily handle a vlocity.
simstrain
N-Class locos have 6 axles, a V/locity only 4.

Also, the overweight V/los haven't been able to pass brake performance tests.  They remain black-banned (for obvious reasons).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Shepparton will become comparable with Bendigo, which has not had catering for many years.

Swan Hill is a very long way from VLocity services.

With the overweight Vlocities that V/Line have accepted, there are going to be cars that are restricted to one line anyway. A Vlocity with a buffet needing to do the Warrnambool run is really no different to making sure an N+N set turns up there. If they are always rostered on forming and running long distances services there wont be any confusion.

Set runs are allocated set cars, as they have to filter through maintenance. It's not like a driver goes to the yard and picks whatever set they want to run the service with that day.

In what universe are the vlocity's overweight. If the line can take a 123 tonne N class loco then it can easily handle a vlocity.
N-Class locos have 6 axles, a V/locity only 4.

Also, the overweight V/los haven't been able to pass brake performance tests.  They remain black-banned (for obvious reasons).
Carnot

A vlocity doesn't way 123 tonnes. It weighs less then half of that. Since when were the vlo's black banned for braking issues? Whatever that is supposed to mean? I know they had issues with not activating level crossings and wheel wear but have not heard anything about them being overweight or having braking issues due to being overweight.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Shepparton will become comparable with Bendigo, which has not had catering for many years.

Swan Hill is a very long way from VLocity services.

With the overweight Vlocities that V/Line have accepted, there are going to be cars that are restricted to one line anyway. A Vlocity with a buffet needing to do the Warrnambool run is really no different to making sure an N+N set turns up there. If they are always rostered on forming and running long distances services there wont be any confusion.

Set runs are allocated set cars, as they have to filter through maintenance. It's not like a driver goes to the yard and picks whatever set they want to run the service with that day.

In what universe are the vlocity's overweight. If the line can take a 123 tonne N class loco then it can easily handle a vlocity.
N-Class locos have 6 axles, a V/locity only 4.

Also, the overweight V/los haven't been able to pass brake performance tests.  They remain black-banned (for obvious reasons).

A vlocity doesn't way 123 tonnes. It weighs less then half of that. Since when were the vlo's black banned? Whatever that is supposed to mean?
simstrain
A three car set is meant to weigh 181 Tonnes (there are differences between each unit).  The latest 4 units (with new cabins) are currently black-banned because they are several tonne overweight and have deficient braking ability.
  SEMartin Chief Train Controller

Location: Canberra ACT
Given the track spec's for the planned line, of which I know not, but would be expecting something like, say 25 TAL and capable of freight trains running at 120kph. I highly suspect the formation and the rest of the works involved in the construction of the line, would of never envisaged it being designed for such and even now does the formation meet the requirements for the planned upgrade.
BigShunter
The IR specs from the ARTC's 'Case for Inland Rail' document are the same specs for the interstate network that were set at the 1997 National Rail Summit, namely:

  • At axle loads up to 21 TAL the maximum speed  was to be max 115km/h and the average speed 80km/h.
  • Between 21 TAL and 25 TAL a maximum speed of 80km/h and an average speed of 60km/h.
  • Train lengths of 1800m on the east-west corridor and 1500m on the north-south corridor.



The only exception being that on the IR corridor, train lengths are to be 1800m and that 'future proofing' be in place to run trains at 30 TAL at a maximum speed of 80km/h.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Given the track spec's for the planned line, of which I know not, but would be expecting something like, say 25 TAL and capable of freight trains running at 120kph. I highly suspect the formation and the rest of the works involved in the construction of the line, would of never envisaged it being designed for such and even now does the formation meet the requirements for the planned upgrade.
The IR specs from the ARTC's 'Case for Inland Rail' document are the same specs for the interstate network that were set at the 1997 National Rail Summit, namely:

  • At axle loads up to 21 TAL the maximum speed  was to be max 115km/h and the average speed 80km/h.
  • Between 21 TAL and 25 TAL a maximum speed of 80km/h and an average speed of 60km/h.
  • Train lengths of 1800m on the east-west corridor and 1500m on the north-south corridor.



The only exception being that on the IR corridor, train lengths are to be 1800m and that 'future proofing' be in place to run trains at 30 TAL at a maximum speed of 80km/h.
SEMartin
If 80kph is future proofing a brand spanking new multi-billion $$$ rail line Shocked no wonder trucks are taking over, a bloody Cob & Co Stage Coach could keep up with that..............Rolling Eyes

BigShunter.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
If 80kph is future proofing a brand spanking new multi-billion $$$ rail line Shocked no wonder trucks are taking over, a bloody Cob & Co Stage Coach could keep up with that..............Rolling Eyes

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Agreed entirely, but on the other hand, how many Cobb & Co stage coaches would you need to carry the goods contained in one 1.5 km train?  Surely you would run out of horses?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Agreed entirely, but on the other hand, how many Cobb & Co stage coaches would you need to carry the goods contained in one 1.5 km train? Surely you would run out of horses?
Lad_Porter

Fortunately some British engineer in the distant past made your conversion very easy... 12,000 is the answer! (based on 3 NR class and yes this is obviously a joke)
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
The only exception being that on the IR corridor, train lengths are to be 1800m and that 'future proofing' be in place to run trains at 30 TAL at a maximum speed of 80km/h.
SEMartin

It will take 5 days to get to BrisVagas, dawdling along at 50mph, sitting in a loop for a couple of hours every 100 or so k's, let alone picking up or dropping off wagons.

Future Proofing.......?

BigShunter.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The only exception being that on the IR corridor, train lengths are to be 1800m and that 'future proofing' be in place to run trains at 30 TAL at a maximum speed of 80km/h.

It will take 5 days to get to BrisVagas, dawdling along at 50mph, sitting in a loop for a couple of hours every 100 or so k's, let alone picking up or dropping off wagons.

Future Proofing.......?

BigShunter.
BigShunter
The differences between say 50 MPH and say 75 MPH means very little If a train Is going to spend a couple of hours every 100 or so k's In a loop.

The Melbourne - Brisbane route Is more or less going to operate like the Adelaide - Perth route.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
The differences between say 50 MPH and say 75 MPH means very little If a train Is going to spend a couple of hours every 100 or so k's In a loop.

The Melbourne - Brisbane route Is more or less going to operate like the Adelaide - Perth route.
Nightfire
Agree, I was just stirring the pot, however what would is the travel time to Perth and expected time to Brissy ?

BigShunter.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Shepparton will become comparable with Bendigo, which has not had catering for many years.

Swan Hill is a very long way from VLocity services.

With the overweight Vlocities that V/Line have accepted, there are going to be cars that are restricted to one line anyway. A Vlocity with a buffet needing to do the Warrnambool run is really no different to making sure an N+N set turns up there. If they are always rostered on forming and running long distances services there wont be any confusion.

Set runs are allocated set cars, as they have to filter through maintenance. It's not like a driver goes to the yard and picks whatever set they want to run the service with that day.

In what universe are the vlocity's overweight. If the line can take a 123 tonne N class loco then it can easily handle a vlocity.
N-Class locos have 6 axles, a V/locity only 4.

Also, the overweight V/los haven't been able to pass brake performance tests.  They remain black-banned (for obvious reasons).

A vlocity doesn't way 123 tonnes. It weighs less then half of that. Since when were the vlo's black banned? Whatever that is supposed to mean?
A three car set is meant to weigh 181 Tonnes (there are differences between each unit).  The latest 4 units (with new cabins) are currently black-banned because they are several tonne overweight and have deficient braking ability.
Carnot

considering that an endeavour / xplorer weighs 57 tonnes per carriage I would hardly call 3 tonnes extra for a newer vehicle with an upgraded shell, engine and gearbox overweight.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

If the VLocity buffet trailer is unpowered it will weigh about the same as the current VLocity trailer.

160 km/h running is not absolutely necessary for the long-haul VLocity. Albury and Shepparton don't have any RFR and Warrnambool, Bairnsdale and Swan Hill only have 29%, 36% and 46% respectively. Saves some fuel.
  SEMartin Chief Train Controller

Location: Canberra ACT
The differences between say 50 MPH and say 75 MPH means very little If a train Is going to spend a couple of hours every 100 or so k's In a loop.

The Melbourne - Brisbane route Is more or less going to operate like the Adelaide - Perth route.
Agree, I was just stirring the pot, however what would is the travel time to Perth and expected time to Brissy ?

BigShunter.
BigShunter
FML. Read 'The Case for Inland Rail' document referred to previously. Or the business case for Inland Rail. Google is your friend.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

If the VLocity buffet trailer is unpowered it will weigh about the same as the current VLocity trailer.

160 km/h running is not absolutely necessary for the long-haul VLocity. Albury and Shepparton don't have any RFR and Warrnambool, Bairnsdale and Swan Hill only have 29%, 36% and 46% respectively. Saves some fuel.
kitchgp
The cost of running a passenger train does NOT vary much with distance travelled, costs are mostly fixed, suchs maintence infrastructure, certicifaction costs, cost of running VLine. Wages and fuel add only a small percentage, That is why VLine will extend a service with little issue.Such extensions add little to the cost but revenue from fares goes up in proportion to distance.

Ref: Conversation with a board member and managment.

Another problem with unpowered cars it reduces the flexibilty of the pool of sets and ones ends up with the problem of the Albury service, cancellations due to lack of sets.

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Maybe it is time for an upgrade on the power and transmission for this new vlocity. The new regional fleet in nsw will not have an auxiliary engine like the xplorer, endeavour, vlocity and hunter have. 1 qsk19 per carriage that feeds an electric grid instead of a transmission to power electric bogies and other electrical items might be something to look at.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
considering that an endeavour / xplorer weighs 57 tonnes per carriage I would hardly call 3 tonnes extra for a newer vehicle with an upgraded shell, engine and gearbox overweight.
simstrain

Simstrain you are looking at this wrong, the overall vehicle weight in isolation or in comparison to other vehicles is not the issue, its the additional weight added to an existing vehicle that is the problem.

When the Vlo's were given accreditation to run the weight of the units were known (allegedly) and lots of factors were calculated off that. One of the critical tests that each unit must pass on commissioning is it must be able to stop within the specified braking curve. To put it simply if the brakes are fully applied at a certain speed, it must be able to come to a complete stop X amount of meters later. By adding additional weight and not altering the brakes the units were not stopping within the allowable distance.

You might be flippant and say who cares and just put the brakes on a bit earlier, but then things like signal sighting distances come into play. If you can't stop at a signal from when you first see it you need to be going slower so the track speed is dropped, which then affects the timetable, which then affects rostering of both crews and vehicles, and on and on the repercussions go all because they're 'overweight'.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

considering that an endeavour / xplorer weighs 57 tonnes per carriage I would hardly call 3 tonnes extra for a newer vehicle with an upgraded shell, engine and gearbox overweight.

Simstrain you are looking at this wrong, the overall vehicle weight in isolation or in comparison to other vehicles is not the issue, its the additional weight added to an existing vehicle that is the problem.

When the Vlo's were given accreditation to run the weight of the units were known (allegedly) and lots of factors were calculated off that. One of the critical tests that each unit must pass on commissioning is it must be able to stop within the specified braking curve. To put it simply if the brakes are fully applied at a certain speed, it must be able to come to a complete stop X amount of meters later. By adding additional weight and not altering the brakes the units were not stopping within the allowable distance.

You might be flippant and say who cares and just put the brakes on a bit earlier, but then things like signal sighting distances come into play. If you can't stop at a signal from when you first see it you need to be going slower so the track speed is dropped, which then affects the timetable, which then affects rostering of both crews and vehicles, and on and on the repercussions go all because they're 'overweight'.
jakar

Weight is not an issue.No Vline train on normal service uses its braking system to anything like its maximum capacity. Calculatons based on normal service stopping distances shows an N class and N set only uses 40% of its braking capacity and the Vlocity's around 50 to 60%. THe Vlocity's emergency stopping distance is around 320metes from 100kph and around 600metres from 130kph. ALL signals are checked for sitting lines and distances, the sitting committee some times makes a blunder (as they did on the NE line) in these cases the signal is shifted to make sure it can be seen from the correct distance.


The reason VLocity's have an auxilary engine as unlike the sprinters the VLocity's main engines do NOT run all the time and will shut down automaticly after a certain time (I thinks its around 10 minutes). The engines will automaticly start as soon as the driver moves the throttle.

Note: The sprinters power system consists of a variable speed altenator driven from EACH engine, these supplly a rectifier, that charges the cars main battery which in turn supplies a 415 volt 3 phase convertor. There is no backup units for the rectifier and convertor but these industrial units are built like battleships and are bullet proof.

woodford

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