VLocity train order off track as fleet built too heavy

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 25 Feb 2019 08:40
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Yes the older ones were weighed .   76, 77, 78, 79 allegedly are now all cleared to run in revenue service as of 27/02/19 according to Addenda on VLP Corporate website .  All 79 VL sets currently in service allowed 160kmh on suitable track class and tare weight of 3 car set is now listed for all sets as 181 tonnes  .  

The HUN story followed in the best Murdoch Gutter Rag traditions and was an absolute "BEAT  UP."

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Yes the older ones were weighed .   76, 77, 78, 79 allegedly are now all cleared to run in revenue service as of 27/02/19 according to Addenda on VLP Corporate website .  All 79 VL sets currently in service allowed 160kmh on suitable track class and tare weight of 3 car set is now listed for all sets as 181 tonnes  .  

The HUN story followed in the best Murdoch Gutter Rag traditions and was an absolute "BEAT  UP."
kuldalai

So my thoughts on this were correct as it turns out..and the Herald-Sun, in its inimitable fashion of never letting the truth get in the way of a good or scandalous story.

Mike.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

According to the Wikipedia VLocity entry, sets VL76 – VL88 have (will have) de-rated engines, ie 650hp instead of 750hp. Is this correct? What effect will it have on performance? Neither the Wikipedia references nor a search of the net has a source for this claim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity
(Additions to the Fleet)
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

According to the Wikipedia VLocity entry, sets VL76 – VL88 have (will have) de-rated engines, ie 650hp instead of 750hp. Is this correct? What effect will it have on performance? Neither the Wikipedia references nor a search of the net has a source for this claim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity
(Additions to the Fleet)
kitchgp
The RTBU Loco Division newsletter from March 2018 has (some of) the answers you seek.

http://www.rtbuvicloco.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/LocoLines-Edition-70.pdf
  changer Station Master

Stale sausage roll ?

I can only attest to the 1:05 down to Warrnambool.

The wraps and muffins were fresh that day. The cappuccino made by someone who knew how to do properly. The coke was icy cold.

What more do you expect from a 7/11 menu ? It's not fine dining but adequate.
https://www.vline.com.au/Fares-general-info/On-board ( see Cafe Bar menu)

cheers
John
justarider

Hot dog and drink (390ml Coke variety or 600ml water) - $8.30......beats the footy!!
  route14 Chief Commissioner

650 hp engine would provide about the same power as sprinters.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

650 hp engine would provide about the same power as sprinters.
route14
How would it cope climbing the Islington Bank for Baccus Marsh to Ballan on the Ballarat line?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

If the new sets include a strict trailer, it's going to be a problem, or they'll just do the same as the existing Sprinters.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

These are the 3-car VL sets (short-haul) currently being delivered. All 3 cars are powered, albeit at 650hp each rather than 750hp. Presumably they will only be used on certain routes (not at 160km/h?).
  route14 Chief Commissioner

So how did all the preceding units get accredited, assuming engines of same power rating are of the same weight?
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The units under discussion in this thread (VL76 – VL88) are the current order and were modified as discussed throughout the thread, purportedly leading to them being overweight. There was no question of the earlier versions being overweight. Kuldalai’s post at the top of this page answers the weight question.

Although it has crept into this discussion, the long-haul version of the VLocity is a separate issue – sufficient to have two threads:
New long-distance V/Line rolling stock
Work Starts To Get VLocity Trains For The North East Line
  woodford Chief Commissioner

650 hp engine would provide about the same power as sprinters.
How would it cope climbing the Islington Bank for Baccus Marsh to Ballan on the Ballarat line?
Duncs
Only lose around 1m 20secs, not worth worrying about.

woodford
  NimbleJack Station Staff

These are the 3-car VL sets (short-haul) currently being delivered. All 3 cars are powered, albeit at 650hp each rather than 750hp. Presumably they will only be used on certain routes (not at 160km/h?).
kitchgp

They will still run at 160.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Lower powered VLocities will obviously be a problem on the Gippsland line, where top speed is rarely reached and acceleration is the factor that (only mostly) keeps trains maintaining the timetable. If they were lower geared it wouldn't be much of a problem on this line, but then they wouldn't be able to reach 160 where able on other lines.

This is a poor decision that compromises the timetable across the network.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Perhaps it is software-implemented and the higher power can be restored at the “flick of a switch”. A sort of reverse of what VW did with its diesel engines in the emissions scandal.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Perhaps it is software-implemented and the higher power can be restored at the “flick of a switch”. A sort of reverse of what VW did with its diesel engines in the emissions scandal.
kitchgp
1. Wherever the decision was made to have these 4 orphan sets was made it will come home repeatedly to haunt VLP as the Operator.

2. The whizzkids who made the decision to buy these orphan sets for a few extra seats on the basis they would only be used on outer Metro runs to Wyndham Vale and Melton, which will both be electrified within 5 years, so then these orphan sets will be a liability .

Orphan trains like the Goninan double decker are an absolute pain, and eventually either get withdrawn (as with the dd Goninan suburban) or these VLS will get modified to either coneventional commuter 3 car sets, or as part of new generation Inter City sets .
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Perhaps it is software-implemented and the higher power can be restored at the “flick of a switch”. A sort of reverse of what VW did with its diesel engines in the emissions scandal.
kitchgp
Software governing has been implemented on the new Hitachi Super Express trains used in the UK (numbered as classes 800, 801, 802) where the engines on the other cars will automatically switch to the higher output mode if one of the engines cuts out.

Full power can also be selected when a set is to be used on a diagram which takes in routes with more hill climbing, with the operator being hit with a surcharge on the engine lease contract applying.

The VLocity is pretty cheap and nasty compared to the Super Express, so I don't expect these sets to have anything like that.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Perhaps it is software-implemented and the higher power can be restored at the “flick of a switch”. A sort of reverse of what VW did with its diesel engines in the emissions scandal.
Software governing has been implemented on the new Hitachi Super Express trains used in the UK (numbered as classes 800, 801, 802) where the engines on the other cars will automatically switch to the higher output mode if one of the engines cuts out.

Full power can also be selected when a set is to be used on a diagram which takes in routes with more hill climbing, with the operator being hit with a surcharge on the engine lease contract applying.

The VLocity is pretty cheap and nasty compared to the Super Express, so I don't expect these sets to have anything like that.
justapassenger
The engine exchange company charges them to use full power?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Perhaps it is software-implemented and the higher power can be restored at the “flick of a switch”. A sort of reverse of what VW did with its diesel engines in the emissions scandal.
kitchgp
There would be two ways to implement power limiting in the Cummins engine (or infact any modern diesel engine), the first is be altering the required parameter in the engines software (it DOES use a controler). THe second way is to limit the fully open position on the injector rack by adjusting the maximum flow stop. Either way it would only take minutes to change the engines power.

woodford
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The engine exchange company charges them to use full power?
RTT_Rules
Yes, the lease agreement has separate rates for engine hours at governed output (used for the Cotswold, South Wales, Exeter routes) and engine hours at full output (used for Devon and Cornwall routes with more hills).

When there is an engine failure and the rest of the set changes to full power, the lease continues to be charged on the governed output and there is an additional rebate for the failure.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
Duncs
Changing a diesel engines power is quite simple, no real difficulty. Fuel saving will be around 16 litres per hour at full power, aprox proportionally less at lower powers. Given the cost of running a VLocity I would not think i was worth  it. Also these lower power sets will get pushed more to try and make up for the lower power, so fuel saving will not be as good as they expect.

woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
Changing a diesel engines power is quite simple, no real difficulty. Fuel saving will be around 16 litres per hour at full power, aprox proportionally less at lower powers. Given the cost of running a VLocity I would not think i was worth  it. Also these lower power sets will get pushed more to try and make up for the lower power, so fuel saving will not be as good as they expect.

woodford
woodford
If they get pushed harder, what will that do to the unit in terms of additional wear and tear?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
Changing a diesel engines power is quite simple, no real difficulty. Fuel saving will be around 16 litres per hour at full power, aprox proportionally less at lower powers. Given the cost of running a VLocity I would not think i was worth  it. Also these lower power sets will get pushed more to try and make up for the lower power, so fuel saving will not be as good as they expect.

woodford
If they get pushed harder, what will that do to the unit in terms of additional wear and tear?
Duncs
Probably very little, these engines are built like the proverbial battleship (Note 1), Cummins claim the QSK 19R at 750BHP has an expected life of 60,000 hours, ie 15 hours a day for over 10 years.

Note 1: The QSK19R 2012Kgms dry (19 litre 6 cylinder), compare with the Deutz BF8L513C (13L V8) used in the Sprinters weighs only 635kg, its power is is only 265hp.

woodford
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I just think dropping from 750hp to 650hp is more trouble than it is worth. Are we really going save that much in fuel by dropping 100hp per car?
Duncs
I'm guessing PTV V/Line had their arm twisted to have their new diesel powered machines to comply with the latest (local) diesel emission standards (Euro 2)

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