Public Holiday Pay , Extended Hours of Trading and Week Ends

 
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

as a child of the 1960s, very few people actually worked on a Sunday, Trading hours were generally 0900 to 1730 Monday to Friday, and 0900 to 1200 Saturdays. Cinemas were closed on Sunday mornings, and the only shop open outside of these hours were the corner Milk Bar and some Cafes.

Restricted trading Hours means that small business owners, Milk Bars excepted, had time of for rest, recreation and the family. It also meant Retail Price Maintenance, which meant that the cost of an item was generally the same in Sydney, Albury, Ballarat and Melbourne, and you had a variety of stores from which you could buy said item, so customer service, and/or a unique range, were genuine selling points.

I do not recall that anyone ran out of food due to restricted hours of trading ! Milk Bars were allowed extended Trading Hours to ensure that Milk, Eggs and Bread were always available.

Extended Trading Hours has resulted in the closure of a lot of small family businesses, primarily due to the bigger businesses usually having enough staff available to ensure extended trading at a marginal cost to them, but to a small family business, it becomes extremely difficult to compete with that.

One of the unintended results of the abolition of Retail Price Maintenance is that big businesses get their supplies at a significant discount that a small business cannot possibly access, so much so, that it is not unknown for small businesses selfing drinks and sweets to buy it from a Big supermarket chain at a price significantly lower than the manufacturer/supplier will sell to them.

It was also an era when most employees / workers were on Awards, which generally were expressed as a 5 1/2 day working week, hence the reason for Public Holidays being paid, as most employees had a Public Holiday not at work. The minority of people who were required to work on a Public Holiday therefore got paid a Supplement for working on a Public Holiday, or got a Days Pay if they were rostered off.

Likewise persons working after midday ( this is a generalisation ) Saturday, or on a Sunday, also received a Supplement for doing so, as did anyone working outside of the normal 9 to 5.

We are now in a situation when many more people are working outside these former normal working hours, and many employers no longer see a need ( they have always had the desire ! ) to pay any sort of Supplement/Penalty for people working outside of these former normal working hours.

From my perspective, paying a Supplement/Penalty to people working outside of former normal working hours is both reasonable and fair. The argument for an Aggregate Wage rate to cover an "average" pay rate based on the last 12 months Average Weekly Earnings has, to my mind, two major problems, one being that last years average does not necessarily mean this years average, there is a tendency for the employer, for reasons of flexibility, requiring more out of normal hours working to be required, and two, it usually also means a significant increase in weekend working. In both instances, the previous average is no longer applicable, and in effect, it results in an effective wage cut. I accept that there are some instances where this may not be true, and I am also aware of some workers on Aggregate Wage arrangements who are more than happy with it, even so, I suspect that it is a system which, over time, has created an effective real wage cut.

A related issue is the "Living Wage" which in practice meant that a worker ( inevitably a male ) basic wage would support a wife and three children. If the woman worked she got paid about 1/2 to 2/3 of the male Wage Rate. This was supposedly abolished by the "Equal Pay for Equal Work" judgement of 1969, and the Anti discrimination legislation of 1984. ( George Orwell ! )

Where women actually work in designated Award based jobs, they do get equal pay ( eg Ambulance crews , Train Drivers etc ). Where women work on contract in office type work that is not covered by a specific Award those women are still, and will remain, being paid a lesser rate than their male colleagues doing similar work, and that is because the employer knows that their contracts are deliberately designed to achieve that outcome, and this is done by defining the contract work in such a way that the woman will get paid at a lower rate. ( There may be exceptions to this, but they are exceptions, the norm is to pay women less. )

The other effect of women allegedly achieving equal pay is that the living wage to support three children now takes two adults ( mum and dad ) to achieve. There is a simple reason for this , Basic Economics of Increased Supply effectively halving the real wage per head of employee.

In the last week or so, SBS had a programme on Iceland and Equality, wherein both mothers and fathers receive ( usually at different times ) have three months maternity / paternity leave , and business do not hold 5pm meeting because their employees need to collect the children from day care or school. Fathers are expected to have a more hands on role with child rearing, and stay at home dads are not that unusual any more. Iceland is also dealing with an increase in reporting of Domestic violence.

The other item of note, SBS News I think, was a firm ( software developer ? ) in Footscray who does a 4 day work week, Mon,Tue,Thu,Fri,closed Wed, claim to have a significant increase in both productivity and profit, despite lesser hours actually worked. This may well work for some businesses. A four days out of 7 days for shift work 24/7 days operation might be a bit more difficult to achieve, but worth a look.

For your consideration,

Regards, Radioman.

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  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
A mates Mrs went back to work after the kids were old enough, and the kids went straight into 8-4 childcare so she could return to her well paid job a a manager in nursing.

Be it upon everyone's personal opinion to judge whether this is sub contracting out of parenting to someone else?? School years count as learning so that's not subcontracting your parenting. Neither is babysitting by family members. Plenty of cultures do that, and they where possible will baulk at daycare.
Side note - Many I've spoke to about daycare say it's where the kid goes to get their immune system turbo charged cos they're always sick.

However, Childcare obviously costs, and a job obviously pays. That said, who would be putting the kids in childcare unless the costs associated were less than what you'd earn for the week? If there was no net financial gain in doing so, one might say you'd be nuts doing this?
Sure there's got to be some other factors or circumstances particularly to each family.
That all said, I think Radioman has a few good observations. There's clearly a few land mines within the post, so some may spend an eternity arguing over?
But debate is good, as is historical perspective.

Might I add that perhaps all of this is societies way of evolving with the rising costs of things and the required wages to support families nowadays?

IMHO, the change in shopping hours has an effect on the economy. More opportunities to work, and also shop/spend.

Consider now with personal electronic devices, how easy it is nowadays to spend without visiting a shop. How many people are spending more because of this than in the past where you had to go to a shop????

This also influences people's work habits/earning capacity. The money has to come from somewhere.

Is it all a side effect of fuelling greed or setting the environment for it?
I don't know.

Regards
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Radio man,

I was born in 69, so I remember the so called good old days of nothing being open after 12 Sat. I think most will agree, good they are gone. Who wants to rush our for the 3h window to buy stuff for the house. Oh forgot that piece, need to wait until next week. The opening of Bunnings in regional cities has seen a wave of DYI Reno.

Small business closed following extended trading hours as people dont want to pay a premium for milk and other when big chains are cheaper.

The gender pay gap for the same job is mostly minimal these days in most professional roles and experience. My wife is an Engineer. The gap that remains is progressively being wiped out as old attitude management retires.

I think you will find few people disagree that workers should get paid a loading for nights and Sundays, but not 50 to 100% more. That's ridiculous.

For my mind its
25% for 6pm to 10pm Mon to Sat and business hours Sunday and PH.
33% for 10pm to 6am

And it should be same for all industries.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Radio man,

I was born in 69, so I remember the so called good old days of nothing being open after 12 Sat. I think most will agree, good they are gone. Who wants to rush our for the 3h window to buy stuff for the house. Oh forgot that piece, need to wait until next week. The opening of Bunnings in regional cities has seen a wave of DYI Reno.

Who wants to rush out in the crowds for the 3h shopping window, not me. Today everything is far more flexible.

Small business closed following extended trading hours as people dont want to pay a premium for milk and other when big chains are cheaper.

The gender pay gap for the same job is mostly minimal these days in most professional roles and experience. My wife is an Engineer. The gap that remains is progressively being wiped out as old attitude management retires.

I think you will find few people disagree that workers should get paid a loading for nights and Sundays, but not 50 to 100% more. That's ridiculous.

For my mind its
25% for 6pm to 10pm Mon to Sat and business hours Sunday and PH.
33% for 10pm to 6am

And it should be same for all industries.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
A comment about public holiday penalty rates:

My wife and I have just returned from a wonderful week long break to Broome, staying at that towns iconic resort. There was a 15% surcharge for restaurant/bar on Anzac day, which is not unusual, supposedly to cover the increased cost of employing staff on public holidays. I asked the barman on one occasion whether the staff were actually getting paid more that day. His reply? "No."

Typical dirty, grubby, abhorrent, far queue bosses. Sad
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
A comment about public holiday penalty rates:

My wife and I have just returned from a wonderful week long break to Broome, staying at that towns iconic resort. There was a 15% surcharge for restaurant/bar on Anzac day, which is not unusual, supposedly to cover the increased cost of employing staff on public holidays. I asked the barman on one occasion whether the staff were actually getting paid more that day. His reply? "No."

Typical dirty, grubby, abhorrent, far queue bosses. Sad
DirtyBallast
So what did you do about it, just smeg here based on hearsay?

Have you validated the Barman's statement? It maybe possible the salary package includes an factor for PH and other allowances, I've worked for a few employers who did that.

Did you front the on site Management and indicate to them their false advertising. This is likely reportable to consumer affairs. If not have you now written to the site GM or their corporate head office?
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

Not speaking for DirtyBallast, just an observation on the above posts.

Validate bar mans claims? Asked and answered.
Front mamagement, old mate batman at least gets his ar$e chewed or receives his marching orders, and puts one on your chin for good measure.
Follow up correspondence, see above, your not within striking distance any longer.

Recalling a post in the Southern Aurora thread, ..... Keeping people on the leash, via a salary.
Is this HR, using RTT's rules?
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
A comment about public holiday penalty rates:

My wife and I have just returned from a wonderful week long break to Broome, staying at that towns iconic resort. There was a 15% surcharge for restaurant/bar on Anzac day, which is not unusual, supposedly to cover the increased cost of employing staff on public holidays. I asked the barman on one occasion whether the staff were actually getting paid more that day. His reply? "No."

Typical dirty, grubby, abhorrent, far queue bosses. Sad
So what did you do about it, just smeg here based on hearsay?

Have you validated the Barman's statement? It maybe possible the salary package includes an factor for PH and other allowances, I've worked for a few employers who did that.

Did you front the on site Management and indicate to them their false advertising. This is likely reportable to consumer affairs. If not have you now written to the site GM or their corporate head office?
RTT_Rules
I trust employee responses much more than those from employers. Perhaps you should trust employees more too; they aren't the ones engaging in white collar crime.

Actually, I have made correspondence with the resort but have yet to receive a reply.

Thank you for confirming that you condone wage theft.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Validate bar mans claims? Asked and answered.
michaelgm
Not speaking for anyone, but it looks like someone has been watching too many lawyers on TV and trying to be fancy without actually understanding what the statement means...
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Validate bar mans claims? Asked and answered.
Not speaking for anyone, but it looks like someone has been watching too many lawyers on TV and trying to be fancy without actually understanding what the statement means...
Aaron
It would seem that @michaelgm needs to watch a few more lawyers on TV, as he might learn that they would be a barrister rather than a bar man Razz
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Not speaking for DirtyBallast, just an observation on the above posts.

Validate bar mans claims? Asked and answered.
Front mamagement, old mate batman at least gets his ar$e chewed or receives his marching orders, and puts one on your chin for good measure.
Follow up correspondence, see above, your not within striking distance any longer.

Recalling a post in the Southern Aurora thread, ..... Keeping people on the leash, via a salary.
Is this HR, using RTT's rules?
michaelgm
So you would start a war with a Hotel/Resort based on one mans say so and not knowing if there is a hiden agenda or even understands his terms and conditions of employment. For the record I once worked in a casual union job that also didn't pay penalty rates for Sundays and public holidays, why because the union told us it was factored into the average wage for the year. I tend to believe it was factored in by the high base rate compared to others at the time, but do you know how many still bitched???

If your only thought is to run to Management quoting the barman and using his name then you clearly have no idea on how to deal with and should remain quiet.


Regarding Southern Aurora, you know perfectly well what the context of that comment in reference to comparing salary vs volunteer workforce so don't go twisting my comments out of context to suit your poorly worded agenda.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I trust employee responses much more than those from employers. Perhaps you should trust employees more too; they aren't the ones engaging in white collar crime.

Actually, I have made correspondence with the resort but have yet to receive a reply.

Thank you for confirming that you condone wage theft.
DirtyBallast
One employee makes an unsubstantiated claim and you believe them hook line and sinker without any further investigation, seriously?

Your mate Billy Shortern is the countries biggest "white Collar Criminal" in reducing wages without discussion or debate, so don't point the finger at me because I don't agree with it at all. The employer must pay what they are legally obligated to do, not ifs or buts and I've said this many times here when in debate with the likes of Don and I just came back from India doing the same thing for the Indian work force of our suppliers.

So now you conveniently say you wrote to the company, if genuine, then good for you, if not then thats between you and your conscience. I would also suggest you approach the media, but first get some evidence and there is also other govt departments to approach.

You can stick your "wage theft" comment where the sun don't shine as at no time I said such a thing, nor implied it.
  michaelgm Deputy Commissioner

Validate bar mans claims? Asked and answered.
Not speaking for anyone, but it looks like someone has been watching too many lawyers on TV and trying to be fancy without actually understanding what the statement means...
Aaron
Aaron, would love to respond now but Mattock is about to commence. Laughing

Edit. Whoops, Matlock. Auto correct gone wild? Or glasses required?
  GS4 Train Controller

.... must be one of those home improvement shows ..... ??
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Andy Griffith using a pick to dig up the back yard and install some irrigation?
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
The LNP don't give a smeg about wage theft. They're more concerned with looking after business owners.

Meanwhile, another example of this lot looking after vested interests rather than those they should be protecting.

"Advocates are angry vulnerable Australians are still being "harmed" by payday loans and high-cost appliance contracts, years after the Federal Government promised to crack down on the practice."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-08/rent-to-buy-lease-legislation-never-makes-parliament/11046964?section=business
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
I trust employee responses much more than those from employers. Perhaps you should trust employees more too; they aren't the ones engaging in white collar crime.

Actually, I have made correspondence with the resort but have yet to receive a reply.

Thank you for confirming that you condone wage theft.
One employee makes an unsubstantiated claim and you believe them hook line and sinker without any further investigation, seriously?
RTT_Rules
At this stage I think you need to fully explain why, according to your schema, the words of any employee are not to be trusted in the first instance?

Perhaps nowadays you are too hoi polloi for the real world?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
At this stage I think you need to fully explain why, according to your schema, the words of any employee are not to be trusted in the first instance?

Perhaps nowadays you are too hoi polloi for the real world?
DirtyBallast
I would have thought common sense, but for you, lets explain

You don't know the guy from a bar of soap (well you haven't indicated above)

Do you take the single word, with no supporting evidence of someone you don't know that they are being ripped off is correct? If so you are easily mislead. I can list a long line of one off claims by people I've worked with over the years who made statements about being ripped off but didn't actually understand their own employment conditions, including me.

Normally if one employee would make a claim of being ripped off, the first thing I do when auditing is double check with evidence or asking another employee on the side as a check.

I live in the real world, perhaps you may wish to join us some day.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

wage theft or wage fraud now appears to be rampant, and the fact that some employer groups are objecting to tightening up the existing law, and also objecting to proposals to criminalise wage fraud would seem to imply that the problem is both widespread and even perhaps a wink wink nod nod recommendation to lower costs, even though this is ILLEGAL.

It is notable that the 7-11 Wage Fraud issue has still neither been resolved, nor has Fair Work taken legal action against the employers for breaking the law.

Yet persons who defraud companies ( which I am not justifying ) seem to get the full force of the law applied to them ( as it should ). Clearly there is still the case of employers getting legal redress but workers NOT getting legal redress.

If you run a business and employ people, your employees have certain legal rights to which they are entitled, and you as a business are well aware of this. There is NO excuse for systematic wage theft. I do accept that errors can be made, and therefore errors can be fixed no later than the next payroll. If employers cannot do that, then they should be prosecuted for theft, just as their employees who steal from them are prosecuted for theft,

Regards, Radioman.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
At this stage I think you need to fully explain why, according to your schema, the words of any employee are not to be trusted in the first instance?

Perhaps nowadays you are too hoi polloi for the real world?
I would have thought common sense, but for you, lets explain

You don't know the guy from a bar of soap (well you haven't indicated above)

Do you take the single word, with no supporting evidence of someone you don't know that they are being ripped off is correct? If so you are easily mislead. I can list a long line of one off claims by people I've worked with over the years who made statements about being ripped off but didn't actually understand their own employment conditions, including me.

Normally if one employee would make a claim of being ripped off, the first thing I do when auditing is double check with evidence or asking another employee on the side as a check.

I live in the real world, perhaps you may wish to join us some day.
RTT_Rules
The answer to my question was straight from the horses mouth so to speak, but your default position is to label employees as liars. That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Let's put the shoe on the other foot - if I ask  my boss a question and he answers me directly, should I immediately call him out as a liar? What do you think the consequences would be???

Regarding your comment about living in the real world - Dubai is as fake as it gets!
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The answer to my question was straight from the horses mouth so to speak, but your default position is to label employees as liars. That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Let's put the shoe on the other foot - if I ask  my boss a question and he answers me directly, should I immediately call him out as a liar? What do you think the consequences would be???

Regarding your comment about living in the real world - Dubai is as fake as it gets!
DirtyBallast
As I've said many times now

- An employee you never met makes a one off statement with no evidence, no history and other means of confirming what he's saying

...and you believe him 100% without a shadow of a doubt.

You don't know
- If he's lying
- If he even knows his terms and conditions of employment including any potential EBA or other
- If he's got a hidden agenda or even playing games with you

You haven't confirmed with the employer
You didn't even check with another employee to check, not a hard thing to do, ask the cleaner
You haven't reported to fair work or what ever
You haven't reported to Consumer Affairs for false advertising
You say you wrote to the company, that's between you and your conscience

So based on all this, with not one ounce of evidence or confirmation by other employees in your book
- The employee is 100% correct and therefore being ripped off
- The company is 100% guilty and should be drawn and quartered without any need for a trial or explanation from their side.

You haven't even mentioned the Hotel, if they are so evil, nothing to loose, you don't work there. I'm sure more than one barman so no risk to him.

This is sounding more and more like a brag at the bar and I think the only think fake here is I suspect this whole story, what Dubai is or is not is irrelevant so why bother bringing it up.

Do I genuinely care that employees are paid what they are legally entitled too by law and/or employment contract? 100% yes and I'll call out anyone who doesn't and always have and its also part of my job. If I knew of a hotel ripping off its staff, no way in hell I would stay there. Yes it doesn't help the staff, but if we don't direct our business to those doing the right thing, the others win.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
The answer to my question was straight from the horses mouth so to speak, but your default position is to label employees as liars. That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Let's put the shoe on the other foot - if I ask  my boss a question and he answers me directly, should I immediately call him out as a liar? What do you think the consequences would be???

Regarding your comment about living in the real world - Dubai is as fake as it gets!

...and you believe him 100% without a shadow of a doubt.

You don't know
- If he's lying
- If he even knows his terms and conditions of employment including any potential EBA or other
- If he's got a hidden agenda or even playing games with you

You haven't confirmed with the employer
You didn't even check with another employee to check, not a hard thing to do, ask the cleaner
You haven't reported to fair work or what ever
You haven't reported to Consumer Affairs for false advertising
You say you wrote to the company, that's between you and your conscience

So based on all this, with not one ounce of evidence or confirmation by other employees in your book...
RTT_Rules
We get that you are the quintessential Doubting Thomas. One can only hope that your mentality is balanced enough to apply the same judgement to those above your station.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

What a ridiculous thread.

If the incident happened at all (so much doesn't add up that this has to be considered as a possibility) then the employee was probably just trying to politely brush off a nosy customer who had no right to be digging into their employment arrangements.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
We get that you are the quintessential Doubting Thomas. One can only hope that your mentality is balanced enough to apply the same judgement to those above your station.
DirtyBallast
I've been avoiding this as I was hoping you could at least try to have a reasonable discussion on this.

So when a Billionaire Prince's Secretary phones you from Nigeria asking for your bank account details to transfer his $1B out of Nigeria for which he'l pay you 10%, you naturally believe him, after-all, why would he lie?

I think we are done on this topic, or at least I am!
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
So when a Billionaire Prince's Secretary phones you from Nigeria asking for your bank account details to transfer his $1B out of Nigeria for which he'l pay you 10%, you naturally believe him, after-all, why would he lie?
"RTT_Rules"
Jeez; he only offered me 5%.

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