Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 10 Aug 2017 09:43
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
ANR
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it

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  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
cityrail-rulez
Actually they would rather just spend money on Sydney.

Newcastle has almost no local infrastructure and what little there is is inaccessible and receives a terrible service.
Wollongong has slightly more local infrastructure which is accessible but still receives a poor service.

And they wonder why the cost of living is high? :/ :/
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
cityrail-rulez
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
RTT_Rules
Here is the timetable (though save it as it will probably link rot soon)

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Things that make it not attractive:
- 2 hours between Wagga and Albury (each way) - driving time is 1.5 hours, XPT time is 1h 17mins.
- arrival times and departure times are not conducive to people working in either place, which was one of the aims for this.  Shopping is not what people want to do in either city as they have more or less the same stuff.
  a6et Minister for Railways

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
RTT_Rules
Your suggestion is the only way that the service would ever come near to being viable - sadly.
  a6et Minister for Railways

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
Your suggestion is the only way that the service would ever come near to being viable - sadly.
  a6et Minister for Railways

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
Here is the timetable (though save it as it will probably link rot soon)

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Things that make it not attractive:
- 2 hours between Wagga and Albury (each way) - driving time is 1.5 hours, XPT time is 1h 17mins.
- arrival times and departure times are not conducive to people working in either place, which was one of the aims for this.  Shopping is not what people want to do in either city as they have more or less the same stuff.
james.au
Based on those times, the only aspect that could make a rail service viable is that it is marketed as a commuter train, but it would need to be also heavily pre tested as to how many people would actually use the service for commuting to/from work. The only other way is if it is a local service to Melbourne once again though, a business case has to show its viability.

As it is now, how many services run from Melbourne to Albury, other than the xpt's?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
Here is the timetable (though save it as it will probably link rot soon)

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Things that make it not attractive:
- 2 hours between Wagga and Albury (each way) - driving time is 1.5 hours, XPT time is 1h 17mins.
- arrival times and departure times are not conducive to people working in either place, which was one of the aims for this.  Shopping is not what people want to do in either city as they have more or less the same stuff.
Based on those times, the only aspect that could make a rail service viable is that it is marketed as a commuter train, but it would need to be also heavily pre tested as to how many people would actually use the service for commuting to/from work. The only other way is if it is a local service to Melbourne once again though, a business case has to show its viability.

As it is now, how many services run from Melbourne to Albury, other than the xpt's?
a6et

Google is always your friend...

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/90b9a59e-f637-4c36-973c-02e404ba4266/Albury-Wodonga-Melbourne-(via-Wangaratta,-Bena-(1)

There's a 09:00 bus from Albury to Seymour that may become a train once the V'Locity's are in service and 2 possibilities out of 6 weekday services on the DOWN assuming the timetable doesn't change radically in the next few years.

The problem with 'trial' services is who's going to utilise this service regularly when there's a chance the trial will end and the service be cancelled.

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Mike.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Google is always your friend...

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/90b9a59e-f637-4c36-973c-02e404ba4266/Albury-Wodonga-Melbourne-(via-Wangaratta,-Bena-(1)

There's a 09:00 bus from Albury to Seymour that may become a train once the V'Locity's are in service and 2 possibilities out of 6 weekday services on the DOWN assuming the timetable doesn't change radically in the next few years.

The problem with 'trial' services is who's going to utilise this service regularly when there's a chance the trial will end and the service be cancelled.

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Mike.
The Vinelander
The trial was done, it was a bus, it failed miserably. Regional commuter services simply just don't stack up, the numbers are not there.

The 6:35am V/line departure from Albury to Mel, could be extended to start from Wagga, running 2.5h behind the XPT, it is well timed for a normal arrival in Melbourne just after peak.

Melbourne to Wagga
1) The last train is the 22:05 arriving Albury, departing Mel after peak at 18:02
OR
2) However if as Mic says some of the buses are converted to trains, then the Seymour service bus going through Albury at 18:50 would be ideal. However this train would then need to become the morning train as mentioned above, would this be suitable?  

Assuming either could work, then the V/line train is stabled O/N in Wagga.
  a6et Minister for Railways

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
Here is the timetable (though save it as it will probably link rot soon)

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Things that make it not attractive:
- 2 hours between Wagga and Albury (each way) - driving time is 1.5 hours, XPT time is 1h 17mins.
- arrival times and departure times are not conducive to people working in either place, which was one of the aims for this.  Shopping is not what people want to do in either city as they have more or less the same stuff.
Based on those times, the only aspect that could make a rail service viable is that it is marketed as a commuter train, but it would need to be also heavily pre tested as to how many people would actually use the service for commuting to/from work. The only other way is if it is a local service to Melbourne once again though, a business case has to show its viability.

As it is now, how many services run from Melbourne to Albury, other than the xpt's?

Google is always your friend...

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/90b9a59e-f637-4c36-973c-02e404ba4266/Albury-Wodonga-Melbourne-(via-Wangaratta,-Bena-(1)

There's a 09:00 bus from Albury to Seymour that may become a train once the V'Locity's are in service and 2 possibilities out of 6 weekday services on the DOWN assuming the timetable doesn't change radically in the next few years.

The problem with 'trial' services is who's going to utilise this service regularly when there's a chance the trial will end and the service be cancelled.

https://transportnsw.info/document/3128/wga-abx-trial-timetable.pdf

Mike.
The Vinelander
Thanks Mike for the link and will be looking at.

I also agree with you on your last paragraph, a trial often has a negative view from even those who are potential users, lets not forget the same thing was said with the Bathurst Bullett, it has turned into a very good service with the cry for more.  There are certain other trains in the past that were very heavily booked prior to withdrawal as well pre downgrading of the services as well.

One particular service that attracted a lot of customers before it was reduced in size was the old Brisbane Exp to/from Wallangarra, it had a convenient arrival time in Sydney, also afternoon departure, on three days per week. Many used the Saturday night service to head to the beach in Summer at Newcastle/Sydney and catch that nights Glenn Innes return train.

With reduced times as shown between the bus and rail surely the rail option is attractive for many more than in the bus, with the unknown aspect of how comfortable the buses are also makes for what decisions are better/best

Again as comparison my wife & usually go to the Gold Coast 2-3 times a year and use both the Brisbane service and Casino services, where change at Casino means a long bus trip which is often on the scary side owing to the so call highway and speed of the buses, with overall poor seats.  The alternative is to continue to Brisbane, then wait and catch a train down to the GC, and a bus from the station. That adds a couple of hours more to the trip also the daylight saving differences are a problem for many.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
cityrail-rulez
Actually it's not such a big spend and post new regional rail fleet the Endeavours and Xplorers will still be serviceable and so nobody should not say it won't happen and it certainly won't need billions of dollars like a vhst service would. Such a service could help the libs in the 2023 election.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Actually it's not such a big spend and post new regional rail fleet the Endeavours and Xplorers will still be serviceable and so nobody should not say it won't happen and it certainly won't need billions of dollars like a vhst service would. Such a service could help the libs in the 2023 election.
simstrain
Going off topic (slightly), but what is the first event to happen:
- VLocities on the NESG to Albury
- XPT/XPL replacement fleet
Its possible that there might be fleet available on the NSW side of the border to run a service in conjunction with/for VLine (or VLine uses the rolling stock to augment its own).

Crazy idea i know...
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Actually it's not such a big spend and post new regional rail fleet the Endeavours and Xplorers will still be serviceable and so nobody should not say it won't happen and it certainly won't need billions of dollars like a vhst service would. Such a service could help the libs in the 2023 election.
Going off topic (slightly), but what is the first event to happen:
- VLocities on the NESG to Albury
- XPT/XPL replacement fleet
Its possible that there might be fleet available on the NSW side of the border to run a service in conjunction with/for VLine (or VLine uses the rolling stock to augment its own).

Crazy idea i know...
james.au
NSW is not going to fund a rail service down that way, can you imagine the cost of having staff (unless Wagga or Albury is used for XPT crewing), plus servicing back in Sydney, Repairs.....

The best option to pay V/line to run a through service from Melbourne to complement the XPT/XPT replacement timetable, it won't be commuter, but thats a failure anyway.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I think local services are a great idea. This Albury to Wagga service could be extended further.
To where, funded by whom & under what business case? Rolling Eyes
KRviator

The track and all the infrastructure is already there and once the new regional rolling stock has taken over all of the Xplorer routes there will be sufficient spare rolling stock to provide such a service if the government thinks it is worthwhile. This would very much be like the Bathurst bullet where all that is required is a little local action and the service can be trialled to see if demand is there. No business case needed.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

NSW is not going to fund a rail service down that way, can you imagine the cost of having staff (unless Wagga or Albury is used for XPT crewing), plus servicing back in Sydney, Repairs.....

The best option to pay V/line to run a through service from Melbourne to complement the XPT/XPT replacement timetable, it won't be commuter, but thats a failure anyway.
RTT_Rules
What is there to fund when there will be viable spare rolling stock by 2024. Don't waste time with vline and if the locals want it use the spare rolling stock.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
NSW is not going to fund a rail service down that way, can you imagine the cost of having staff (unless Wagga or Albury is used for XPT crewing), plus servicing back in Sydney, Repairs.....

The best option to pay V/line to run a through service from Melbourne to complement the XPT/XPT replacement timetable, it won't be commuter, but thats a failure anyway.
What is there to fund when there will be viable spare rolling stock by 2024. Don't waste time with vline and if the locals want it use the spare rolling stock.
simstrain
I understand your point but the whole logistics is far more complicated.

If its XPL, it will be doing assume 1 trip each way AM and PM, poor rolling stock uterlisation, where does staff come from, how to get to Sydney for servicing........ Just think of the overheads to run it. Certainly the fares are unlikely to pay for the cleaning bill.  We haven't even discussed which way the train should run A->W or W->A, surely no one is proposing both each way?

Or

Extend an existing train service another 130km or whatever it is and do the exact same thing now, park the train, send the crew to bed.

The whole commuter option is a pointless exercise, won't work there just like everywhere else, so end of story on that. The opportunity is to improve access to Albury to Melbourne. The one and only WW'ite I've ever know personally said his family at least would go to Melbourne before Sydney because back then at least it was easier and faster.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

What about running Dubbo to Albury via the new inland line or via Forbes, Parkes or even Cowra? Trains would then get serviced at Dubbo. If you asked anyone whether they would prefer to drive on the death trap Newell Highway or take the train into Melbourne from Dubbo, my guess is they would take the train. They could change at Albury for a connecting services to Melbourne. Wagga and Albury could then have their added services, and towns along the way to Dubbo could then get their own pax services too. Maybe one for the SFF party to consider if the Nats find it difficult to object to unnecessary Sydney Stadium demolitions in favour of dollars spent on their own constituents.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Who in their right mind is going to consider Melbourne-Dubbo a viable passenger service? V/Line sure isn't going to pay for the rollingstock, and why would CountryLink provide a service from regional NSW to another state's capital? And if you asked me if I want to take the train, vs drive the Newell, I'll drive, thank you very much - particularly if it's the family going. Just me? Then I'll fly.

I am all for introducing new rail services, but, by and large, passenger services lose money, no matter their patronage level. Unless there is some serious pork-barreling to be had, Governments won't spend one cent more than they have to on rail services as they only benefit those that actually use them. You might never drive on the Hume Highway, but the Government can sway your opinion to improvements to it by saying "But it'll reduce transit times for freight, and you'll pay less at the supermarkets". How can they use this argument to fund a passenger train? Simply put, they can't, no matter how wishful your thinking may be.

Rightly or wrongly, in this day and age, any new service needs to be able to stand on its' own two feet, be it freight, or passenger.
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
RTT_Rules
Oh yeah! I remember that bus service that never existed, I did sign a petition for Countrylink at the time as well as many other locals did. But nothing happened at all
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.
Doesn't matter who is voted in, it will never happen full stop! The government would have to spend billions of dollars just for it to happen and to them "no matter which party" it's a waste of time, they rather spend more money in "N=Newcastle, S=Sydney, W=Wollongong" that's it
The govt to its credit ran a bus as a trial, it was a colossal failure, unless we can demonstrate the bus trial was planned to fail from the onset, then it simply doesn't stack up.

However I agree that the service between the two cities and with access to Mel can be improved by extending one of the V/line trains to Wagga.
Oh yeah! I remember that bus service that never existed, I did sign a petition for Countrylink at the time as well as many other locals did. But nothing happened at all
cityrail-rulez
https://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/5629191/demand-remains-low-for-wagga-to-albury-wodonga-bus-service-trials/
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Forget vline. vline is hopeless.

The only way that service will operate is with a nsw train. Service can be done at junee or goulburn if need be and I also did say a trial to see how many people will actually use the thing. If the trial doesn't attract enough people then close it down.
  SinickleBird Chief Train Controller

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
Interesting to read suggestion about Dubbo.

Flycorporate.com.au offers direct flights Essendon to Dubbo using Saab 340 aircraft. 4 flights weekly, capacity 34 seats per flight. Paraphrasing another thread, “how many explorer cars is that?”. And is that a sensible use of a train set (and multiple crews)?

Every country town would like its own train. Problem is, everyone wants to travel when it’s convenient for them, wants a door-to-door service, at a lower cost than the fuel bill in the car. The only way to deliver it is in a (smaller) car.

First challenge (before a trial) is to find the people who make the trip. Then ask them:

1. What would it take to have you make this trip by train? And
2. How much would you be prepared to pay for that service?

No need to guess- ask the potential customers.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Re Dubbo - yes interesting, but are there bus services already?

I think ANR is responding to comments from RTT about getting it back to Sydney for maintenance.  He is suggesting that the service starts in Dubbo....

We know that for freight there is a distance efficiency point after which rail dominates - i wonder if there is for passenger, and how regional Australian contexts might impact this.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE


First challenge (before a trial) is to find the people who make the trip. Then ask them:

1. What would it take to have you make this trip by train? And
2. How much would you be prepared to pay for that service?

No need to guess- ask the potential customers.
SinickleBird
Good idea, should only take 30min or so to call all of them.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Thanks for picking up my comments James.au. that is exactly how I intended them.

FWIW, anyone who wants to take the Newell south or even north is better off crossing over to the Olympic Highway. Best kept secret, virtually no trucks, few cars and a pleasant drive.

But if ever there is a rail service, that's even better.

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