The Vinelander

 
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
mikey



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urMjGAimtRc&list=RD_h43VtfF8s4&index=8

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  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I have wanted to know where does the Vinelander go to? I saw carriages of the Vinelander at Steamrail's  Newport workshops on the open days.
It travelled to Mildura; its service was withdrawn on September 12 1993.
As a Mildura local, this annoys me that we in Mildura have no trains.
Additional info, It included motorail and sleeper facilities and ran 2 times a week. Journey time was close to 10 hours.
Nice one, Jeff (the premier who withdrew a bunch of train services because he has no brain)
THE UNHINGED POWER OF THE FREE MARKET WILL SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS. MAH PRIVATISATION AND CUTS
It is absolutely unnecessary to SHOUT your reply...particularly a reply that is difficult to understand.
M.
Mike, I suspect it was a dig at a certain political group who are fond of asserting the free market will solve all the world's problems, then  Dan 707 added his opinion of that claim.
petan
its a dig at our friend Jeff
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
What are the criteria for 'deserves'? Population? Economic output of the catchment area? Competition for influence from another state capital? A big dot or bold font on a map?
billybaxter

You could have thought of...embarrassment Question

One of Victoria's premium tourist destinations as is evidenced by three airlines flying there daily, QANTAS, Virgin & Rex and Sunraysia being the only regional centre of Victoria in the only state in Australia which boasts frequent regional passenger trains to almost all important centres across the state... soon to be further modernised and the frequencies of those services further increased...except for Mildura and the north west.

It's no wonder the National party lost the seat to an Independent last year.

The airlines should not have to be seen by the general public as the only public transport provider at a cost way in excess of V/Line's fares.

I can forgive our SA and NSW friends their ignorance as they enjoy no regional rail service, or at the very best a scant regional PT service.

Mike.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
This topic really is like a merry-go-round isn't it?

We go round and round making the same points (valid or invalid, it doesn't seem to matter anymore) until we jump off and realise we are still right were we started off from.

There is no train to Mildura today and there won't be one in 10 years time.

THE END.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Not THE END... at all.

If I'm antagonised enough by the naysayers and Penny pinchers in this forum for long enough, I'll let fly with a dose of my own. Smile

Mike.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I have not seen any sign from this current state Government that gives me any reason to think that it will happen. None.

And that is with an ALP government, if the other mob get in it is guaranteed to not happen.

I'm not being negative, just reading the play.



As I said, we have all had this conversation many many times and yet, we are still in the same position.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
This topic is threatening to run for longer than Home and Away or Blue Hills. Both of them got nowhere as well.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

You could have thought of...embarrassment Question

One of Victoria's premium tourist destinations as is evidenced by three airlines flying there daily, QANTAS, Virgin & Rex and Sunraysia being the only regional centre of Victoria in the only state in Australia which boasts frequent regional passenger trains to almost all important centres across the state... soon to be further modernised and the frequencies of those services further increased...except for Mildura and the north west.

It's no wonder the National party lost the seat to an Independent last year.

The airlines should not have to be seen by the general public as the only public transport provider at a cost way in excess of V/Line's fares.

I can forgive our SA and NSW friends their ignorance as they enjoy no regional rail service, or at the very best a scant regional PT service.

Mike.
The Vinelander
So you are trying to strength your argument for the Vinelander to return by comparing NSW with SA in regards to regional rail?

Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
RTT_Rules
Or for the forum to impose a breath test and maximum BAC reading before posting.

This topic is threatening to run for longer than Home and Away or Blue Hills. Both of them got nowhere as well.
Valvegear
It's already like watching the exact same episode on repeat.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
It's not compulsory to read this thread...nor to comment.

We all have our interests and aims in our lives and clearly this is mine and has been for many years.
If you don't have the imagination to advocate for something that you have a specific passion about then why bother contributing to the overall Railpage discussion Question

Mike.

Edited, due to inability to read the smartphone at stupid o'clock Smile
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
It's not compulsory to read this thread...nor to comment.
"The Vinelander"
Quite true.  It is also not compulsory to refrain from comment about something with which we disagree.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Flogging a dead horse....................
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
RTT_Rules

Before making such a broad-brushed unilaterally silly comment...tell me about the public transport options between say...Hillston and Griffith.

If NSW is not offering the sub-standard PT that I suggest that it may, then the Hillston to Griffith bus will be a prime example of connectivity between that town and its nearest centre of commerce and for people beyond driving age or who choose not to drive to travel to their closest regional centre for shopping, medical appointments etc.

BTW, Hillston, pop 1,465 to Griffith, pop 18,900 is 110Km.

Over to you Shane...

Mike.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
Before making such a broad-brushed unilaterally silly comment...tell me about the public transport options between say...Hillston and Griffith.

If NSW is not offering the sub-standard PT that I suggest that it may, then the Hillston to Griffith bus will be a prime example of connectivity between that town and its nearest centre of commerce and for people beyond driving age or who choose not to drive to travel to their closest regional centre for shopping, medical appointments etc.

BTW, Hillston, pop 1,465 to Griffith, pop 18,900 is 110Km.

Over to you Shane...

Mike.
The Vinelander
Seriously, you want to talk about running trains to Hillston?

Griffith, a population of less than 20,000 people, every stop on the  branch is less than 2h drive from the main south.
Hillston is less than 1500 people itself and half as much in the middle between Griffith and Hilston, if they ran a coach, they can carry 3% of the entire population along the route. Its also 1 hr drive away from Griffith. There is only so much the govt should be expected. I've driven once or twice out that way, not sure if actually through Hillston.

The rail passenger service was closed in the 70's and I suspect in its dying days it was often more staff than passengers as it was never busituted. My mum used to catch the rail motor north of Moree in the early 60's on either of the two branch lines up that way to work on the farms and her descriptions of the quality of the service and patronage wasn't positive and hence as soon as the road was half decent and people bought cars, the service was closed.

Mike, I grew up on the NSW Central Coast, I enjoy regional living and will return leaving Dubai, where I don't know but I know it won't be Hillston, nor the crowded Central Coast. However I also acknowledge there comes a time in life when people need to make smart decisions and living in highly remote areas without family or other assistance is not one of them. Expecting the govt to run empty buses or trains is also unrealistic.

You keep making unrealistic comparisons and drawing only god knows how conclusions between the two.

Reality Check,
- Most of the Victorian population lives within 3-3.5hr drive of Melbourne and ironically thats where most of the remaining trains still run over mostly flat terrain making then still reasonable compared to car transport in running time without major investment.

- Vic's small population geographic base means there is almost no intrastate rail freight left in the state outside grain and a few others. Note most of this comes from the unpopulated areas of the NW.

- NSW is however far more spread out, most of its along the eastern seaboard side of the mountains, thus making rail without major upgrades (which I never said were not required) less competitive with road. However even so it still supports a reasonable rail service between Albury and Casino including Canberra (which could be alot better).

- West of the mountains NSW is however far more spread out population wise than Vic with 3-3.5 from a town of not much to another town of not much more and even less in the middle. Unlike Vic, its not a capital Centric road/rail network radiating out from the capital.

- What Vic often calls V/line runing 2-6 car DMU's on at times single track, NSW calls electrified interurban network running 8 car DD trains on a frequency that would make the average Victorian eyes open and has been doing so for 30-60 years.

Yes NSW can and needs to improve, but remember Vic was gifted most of the funds for the RFR for basically $1B, to achieve the same in NSW due to terrain and large geographic area would be in the order of $20-30B, which is why I am so opposed to stuffing around with the High Speed Fail when the basics still need to be resolved and most of which the HSR will not solve and this includes trains to Mildura.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner


Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
Before making such a broad-brushed unilaterally silly comment...tell me about the public transport options between say...Hillston and Griffith.

If NSW is not offering the sub-standard PT that I suggest that it may, then the Hillston to Griffith bus will be a prime example of connectivity between that town and its nearest centre of commerce and for people beyond driving age or who choose not to drive to travel to their closest regional centre for shopping, medical appointments etc.

BTW, Hillston, pop 1,465 to Griffith, pop 18,900 is 110Km.

Over to you Shane...

Mike.
The Vinelander
Maybe it was a strong comment by RTT Rules, but quoting a rural service as an example of Victoria having better PT than NSW does you no favours at all.

In the main and objectively, NSW PT is better than ours. Only someone that is one eyed would say otherwise. Their Metro service is far more extensive than ours, their Interurban operations are electrically hauled and NSW plan better than we do down South. You like to go on about V/Line. V/Line is still crap. Hampered by the piecemeal approach to rolling stock renewal. In particular the introduction of Vlocities does not cover this state in glory.

Why oh why didnt the Bracks Government order enough Vlocities to replace old stock. Instead they ordered the bare minimum and decided to refurbish H-Type carriages, converted EMU stock from the 1950/60's. As a result, we are still operating peak services with old 1950's tin-worm riddled H Type carriages hauled by 1980's vintage locos. Those life-expired old pieces of junk should have been scrapped and made into dog food tins long ago. V/Line could and should have had a modern DMU fleet by now. Instead we are left with a mismatch of Modern DMU's, Older DMU's and old locos and carriages, with all the cost and operational penalties associated with running such a fleet. 70 x 3 car trains has been produced since 2004. 15 years for 70 trains. Over 20% of V/line's rolling stock are carriages that are over 60 years old. NSW on the other hand commit to large orders with the view of replacing old stock.

Premier Andrews is to be commended for his efforts in revitalising PT in Victoria. In reality we are lagging behind NSW.

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
...and NO Shane...I was asking about the bus that must surely be operating between Hillston and it's nearest centre for shopping and medical in Griffith....where did I mention the (former) train service Question

You inferred I was barking mad to even suggest that NSW has an inferior regional PT service to Victoria.

Again, I was talking about connectivity between rural centres in NSW...by bus. Sure there are some good options like Cootamundra to many points on the compass, including large towns like Griffith, Bathurst, Orange etc...but not Hillston...apparently.

I can cite many other towns in NSW where there is no PT from the reasonably sized town to the nearest large town or regional city. In Victoria, we have these towns covered, but apparently not in NSW...

Tibooburra to Broken Hill...(a weekly service would suffice)

Broken Hill to Wentworth/Mildura & vice-versa...(thrice weekly would suffice)

Moree to Bourke via Walgett & vice-versa...(thrice weekly would suffice)


As we in Victoria have already moved to emphasise PT options instead of leaving towns unconnected or total reliance on the private car, these towns deserve connectivity between each other and their largest regional centre.

....am I still barking mad...or just a candidate for a mental asylum Question

Mike.
  stooge spark Train Controller

If I were premier, I would not open the Mildura line to make Mike mad.
Better yet, I could open the line as the "vinelader" to represent its role as a third class service
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
You inferred I was barking mad
The Vinelander
He didn't. He implied that you were. You inferred a meaning (or, if you prefer, you drew an inference) from what he wrote.
Infer is the most misused word in the lexicon.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
It's no wonder the National party lost the seat to an Independent last year.
The Vinelander

They've had independents in that seat before - did that achieve your aim of getting the train service back? No.

The airlines should not have to be seen by the general public as the only public transport provider at a cost way in excess of V/Line's fares.
The Vinelander

Rubbish - the train/bus to Mildura is perfectly adequate and affordable for those who can't afford to fly

I can forgive our SA and NSW friends their ignorance as they enjoy no regional rail service, or at the very best a scant regional PT service.
The Vinelander

We just don't have the population density here in SA to make a successful comprehensive country rail network - we've done this topic to death too.

Long distance rail in Australia is as dead as a dodo, if you can't afford to fly then there's always a bus.

Not everywhere can have trains again - even though the near-Melbourne destinations within two hours have been well patronised you can't apply that model to all corners of the state, it'll just be a colossal waste of money at time when the VIC government is cutting programs and services.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Not everywhere can have trains again - even though the near-Melbourne destinations within two hours have been well patronised you can't apply that model to all corners of the state, it'll just be a colossal waste of money at time when the VIC government is cutting programs and services.
don_dunstan

I realise that you living in a conservative state that one has low expectations of what services a government can provide, however Victoria isn't quite down for the count yet either and that NO government services or programs have actually been cut, but some have been introduced like child dental services for primary school kids and today's PT announcement for the Bendigo line.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/improving-reliability-and-new-stations-for-bendigo/

Moreover, I think the East, North East, North, North west and South west are reasonably well catered for by fixed rail PT in Victoria

Mike.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...
The Vinelander
Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
Before making such a broad-brushed unilaterally silly comment...tell me about the public transport options between say...Hillston and Griffith.

If NSW is not offering the sub-standard PT that I suggest that it may, then the Hillston to Griffith bus will be a prime example of connectivity between that town and its nearest centre of commerce and for people beyond driving age or who choose not to drive to travel to their closest regional centre for shopping, medical appointments etc.

BTW, Hillston, pop 1,465 to Griffith, pop 18,900 is 110Km.

Over to you Shane...

Mike.
The Vinelander
Another Mike,
I did discuss both rail and bus, but as I had no idea where the Hillston thing came from or why you mentioned it I assumed rail being the first point your were loosely trying to make and hence I discuss the Bus issues 2nd.

While on Hillston, its in the seat of Murry, a seat nearly half the size of Victoria with just on 100,000 population and for some reason what ever bus service is available, its not good enough for you. As I said before, its very easy to run a bus network on a radial network from the capital city, especially when the starting point has a reasonable population base to help underwrite demand. Hilston is further from Sydney than Mildura is from Mel.

Most of NEW regional trains if overlaid in Vic would exit the state (twice over) and have more stops than a number of your rail services combined.

As I said before, when you live in a remote area with a very low population with no family support, you need to make smart decisions before you loose your transport options.

Referring to my comment on being "committed", yes it was a loose joke, sorry you couldn't see it that way but your comments following are not helping your case.

And as you want to again throw politics into the mix, NSW may currently be a LNP state, but it had 10 years of ALP govt from 1978 and 11 years from 2000. Much of its rail today is driven by decisions made during the 21 years of its ALP governance including
- Cancellation of the Murwullibah XPT, the most popular regional rail service in NSW at the time
- Truncation of Northern Tablelands from Tenterfield to Glenn Innes to Armidale with the famous quote, "I'm not running a $10M train for one old lady" If the lady in question wasn't a LNP voter before, she probably was after
- Failure to build almost anything rail that wasn't contracted before Carr came to power, but famously announcing alot.

Regarding you comment for improvements to the Bendigo Line.
- Harcourt station was previously closed by the Kaine ALP govt.
- Bendigo is a small DMU service in Vic, roughly the same distance as the 8 car DD sparks that service Kiama, Broadmeadow and Lithgow

You comment also states that there is no need for returning the Mildura rail service as the NW is "well served by fixed rail".


If you want to continue this NSW vs Vic debate, the balls in your court but before replying
Note this, by the time the NSW govt faces its next election.
- It will have built more Greenfield suburban rail than all the Vic ALP govts and LNP's combined since WW2.

- It will have built more Greendfield light rail trackage than the Vic ALP and LNP govts combined since WW2.

- and critically the state will still be basically net debt free unlike the Soviet Socialist Republic of Vic which is yet again proving former PM M.Thatcher's famous statement correct that left'ist govts repeatedly fail to live within their means and potentially leaving the state open to another Kennett style Austerity exercise at the expense of the next generation. But of course this will be blamed of typical LNP vision-less politics.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...
Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.
don_dunstan

Spoken like a true conservative.

The only fan of the Baillieu/Napthine do nothing government...is that why you moved to SA...way too much progress on this side of the border Question

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Stating NSW as being substandard compared to Vic is reason enough to have you committed.
Before making such a broad-brushed unilaterally silly comment...tell me about the public transport options between say...Hillston and Griffith.

If NSW is not offering the sub-standard PT that I suggest that it may, then the Hillston to Griffith bus will be a prime example of connectivity between that town and its nearest centre of commerce and for people beyond driving age or who choose not to drive to travel to their closest regional centre for shopping, medical appointments etc.

BTW, Hillston, pop 1,465 to Griffith, pop 18,900 is 110Km.

Over to you Shane...

Mike.Another Mike,
I did discuss both rail and bus, but as I had no idea where the Hillston thing came from or why you mentioned it I assumed rail being the first point your were loosely trying to make and hence I discuss the Bus issues 2nd.

While on Hillston, its in the seat of Murry, a seat nearly half the size of Victoria with just on 100,000 population and for some reason what ever bus service is available, its not good enough for you. As I said before, its very easy to run a bus network on a radial network from the capital city, especially when the starting point has a reasonable population base to help underwrite demand. Hilston is further from Sydney than Mildura is from Mel.

Most of NEW regional trains if overlaid in Vic would exit the state (twice over) and have more stops than a number of your rail services combined.

As I said before, when you live in a remote area with a very low population with no family support, you need to make smart decisions before you loose your transport options.

Referring to my comment on being "committed", yes it was a loose joke, sorry you couldn't see it that way but your comments following are not helping your case.

And as you want to again throw politics into the mix, NSW may currently be a LNP state, but it had 10 years of ALP govt from 1978 and 11 years from 2000. Much of its rail today is driven by decisions made during the 21 years of its ALP governance including
- Cancellation of the Murwullibah XPT, the most popular regional rail service in NSW at the time
- Truncation of Northern Tablelands from Tenterfield to Glenn Innes to Armidale with the famous quote, "I'm not running a $10M train for one old lady" If the lady in question wasn't a LNP voter before, she probably was after
- Failure to build almost anything rail that wasn't contracted before Carr came to power, but famously announcing alot.

Regarding you comment for improvements to the Bendigo Line.
- Harcourt station was previously closed by the Kaine ALP govt.
- Bendigo is a small DMU service in Vic, roughly the same distance as the 8 car DD sparks that service Kiama, Broadmeadow and Lithgow

You comment also states that there is no need for returning the Mildura rail service as the NW is "well served by fixed rail".


If you want to continue this NSW vs Vic debate, the balls in your court but before replying
Note this, by the time the NSW govt faces its next election.
- It will have built more Greenfield suburban rail than all the Vic ALP govts and LNP's combined since WW2.

- It will have built more Greendfield light rail trackage than the Vic ALP and LNP govts combined since WW2.

- and critically the state will still be basically net debt free unlike the Soviet Socialist Republic of Vic which is yet again proving former PM M.Thatcher's famous statement correct that left'ist govts repeatedly fail to live within their means and potentially leaving the state open to another Kennett style Austerity exercise at the expense of the next generation. But of course this will be blamed of typical LNP vision-less politics.
RTT_Rules


Clearly the heat in Dubai is frying your brain Shane.

I was writing about the non-connectivity between significant NSW towns and their nearest regional centre...and I made that abundantly clear Exclamation

You dragged politics into it...I didn't mention politics...I stated facts.

Nowhere did I mention Sydney Exclamation

Hillston has NO bus service with its local regional centre which is Griffith...that was the reason I raised it as a prime example of the lack of REGIONAL PT in NSW.

Hillston is also the administrative centre of the Shire of Carrathool, therefore regionally, the locality has some importance, yet regards PT, it is an isolated community.

https://www.carrathool.nsw.gov.au/


Harcourt station was CLOSED under the Thompson Liberal government on 4/10/1981

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Ministry

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+did+Harcourt+station+close&oq=when+did+Harcourt+station+close&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.10307j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Simple facts that took less than a minute to research.

I've presented facts that show NSW regional PT is way LESS comprehensive that Victoria's..yet you keep citing examples from the OTHER SIDE of the Great Dividing Range.
This discussion is about regional PT and to me, regional as is the case in Victoria...and the deficient examples I've already provided are also on the other side of the Great Dividing Range, both in Victoria AND in NSW...yes that big space that people who live on the other side of that mountain range don't realise exists.

Time to stop showing your lack of experience about this subject Shane...sorry man, this one, I've won through my greater local knowledge.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

In the main and objectively, NSW PT is better than ours. Only someone that is one eyed would say otherwise. Their Metro service is far more extensive than ours, their Interurban operations are electrically hauled and NSW plan better than we do down South. You like to go on about V/Line. V/Line is still crap. Hampered by the piecemeal approach to rolling stock renewal. In particular the introduction of Vlocities does not cover this state in glory.

Why oh why didnt the Bracks Government order enough Vlocities to replace old stock. Instead they ordered the bare minimum and decided to refurbish H-Type carriages, converted EMU stock from the 1950/60's. As a result, we are still operating peak services with old 1950's tin-worm riddled H Type carriages hauled by 1980's vintage locos. Those life-expired old pieces of junk should have been scrapped and made into dog food tins long ago. V/Line could and should have had a modern DMU fleet by now. Instead we are left with a mismatch of Modern DMU's, Older DMU's and old locos and carriages, with all the cost and operational penalties associated with running such a fleet. 70 x 3 car trains has been produced since 2004. 15 years for 70 trains. Over 20% of V/line's rolling stock are carriages that are over 60 years old. NSW on the other hand commit to large orders with the view of replacing old stock.

Premier Andrews is to be commended for his efforts in revitalising PT in Victoria. In reality we are lagging behind NSW.

Michael
mejhammers1

Again...to clarify, I was writing about PT service north and west of the Great Dividing Range as my examples cite.


The H cars were renovated by the Cain Labor government as an extension of the 'New Deal' around 15 years before the election of the Bracks government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal_(railway)

Premier Steve Bracks to his credit as a regular traveller on the Ballarat line through the 1980's created the Regional Fast Rail project and ordered as part of that 29 two car V'Locity sets for the project when he won office in late 1999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Fast_Rail_project

Little did he realise the transformation of the regional railway that would be forthcoming and the impending growth of regional towns and cities...however the whole project could have been a dud (it wasn't) and the Bracks government which NEVER had the support of the Liberal/National party Opposition for the project could have been tossed out of government had it failed.

Since then the government has been playing catch-up in trying to procure enough rolling stock to cover demand AND retire the H cars and the 4 lost years of the Baillieu/Napthine government didn't help.

Mike.

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