E class tram routes

 
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

In the recent state budget the government announced that an additional 10 E class trams will be purchased bringing the total to 100 of which 77 have been delivered so far.

As this will be more than are required for routes 11, 86 & 96 which will be the next route to receive them? My own thoughts would be either routes 19 or 75 although with its loadings route 109 would also be worth considering. Any other suggestions?

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  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
This will be interesting to see.

On that point, would there be any benefit in ordering another xx qty with the view that such an order would be intended to replace the Z3 and perhaps even as far as the A class??

If so, I wonder whether such an idea has been floated, and if so whether some idea of order qty is known to achieve this or in stages etc??

I'm curious to know, as the Z3 and A are getting a bit long in the tooth now, and don't have the same level of DDA compliance as much of the rest of the fleet.

Regards
  ngarner Chief Train Controller

Location: Seville
I can't remember where I read it, so I can't link it here, but the government contract with Bombadier had an option for an additional 100 E(2)'s after the initial 50, so half of that option has been taken up.
A government strategy paper dated 2015 (sorry, again no link) said they wanted 80 more on top of the original 50 E's by 2021. Assuming that little has changed then there are potentially up to another 30 be added to the Bombadier's order books in the next year or two

Neil
  tram1041 Station Staff

Hey all,
          The original order for the 80 E Class was enough to cover all services on the routes 11,86 & 96.6077 is the latest car on the road and 6078 has almost completed pre-service testing while 6079 & 6080 have finished being fitted out at Preston.The last B Class remaining at Preston is 2130.The next route in the original plan for the extra 20 cars was to be the route 59 with some B's cascaded to the route 57,a move long overdue in my opinion,but now apparently that has changed recently to the route 58.I am not sure exactly how many of the 20 cars it will be,but there was talk about them being based at Southbank,but with the limited space there it may not be too many.Also according to reports alot of Essendon drivers have been trained on the E's already.Brunswick Depot also  is to be extended with at least 2 more outside roads so there is a possibility that some may go there as well for the 58.In my opinion though i believe that Malvern should take over the whole operation of route 58 (it is a 75% Malvern route as is) fro Essendon with trams and Brunswick take over the whole of route 6.That way you could have 10 E Class go to Essendon for the 59 which would fit up on the outside storage roads and the other 10 maybe to Brunswick if they decide that it maybe better if Malvern were to take the whole of route 6 instead and Brunswick shared the route 58 with Malvern using the  E Class.
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

Hey all,
          The original order for the 80 E Class was enough to cover all services on the routes 11,86 & 96.6077 is the latest car on the road and 6078 has almost completed pre-service testing while 6079 & 6080 have finished being fitted out at Preston.The last B Class remaining at Preston is 2130.The next route in the original plan for the extra 20 cars was to be the route 59 with some B's cascaded to the route 57,a move long overdue in my opinion,but now apparently that has changed recently to the route 58.I am not sure exactly how many of the 20 cars it will be,but there was talk about them being based at Southbank,but with the limited space there it may not be too many.Also according to reports alot of Essendon drivers have been trained on the E's already.Brunswick Depot also  is to be extended with at least 2 more outside roads so there is a possibility that some may go there as well for the 58.In my opinion though i believe that Malvern should take over the whole operation of route 58 (it is a 75% Malvern route as is) fro Essendon with trams and Brunswick take over the whole of route 6.That way you could have 10 E Class go to Essendon for the 59 which would fit up on the outside storage roads and the other 10 maybe to Brunswick if they decide that it maybe better if Malvern were to take the whole of route 6 instead and Brunswick shared the route 58 with Malvern using the  E Class.
tram1041
Some interesting possibilities there. No doubt we will get an announcement from the government in due course as to where they will be used. One thing is certain though, it will be on a route or routes that need trams of that capacity.
  tram1041 Station Staff

Hey all,
          The problem with the E Class is as i see it is the very slow delivery rate and entry into service times.It should all run like a well oiled machine now the same as it did way back with the Z's,A's,B's & D's where you had sometimes 2 or 3 trams entering service at a time at short intervals not one every 3 months.There needs to be a change of terminus for the 11 & 109 and to run the 12 via Latrobe st and to keep capacity in Collins st take the route 70 out of Flinders  st to Collins st and put curves at Collins/Docklands so it can terminate at the same location or if possible extend the Collins st track around to join up with the other Docklands terminus to make a loop that way you could even change the 11 & 86 around so you could have a new route inbound 86 via Bourke st around the loop  and outbound 11 via Collins st and vice versa the possibilities are endless.Hang on sorry i forgot where i was ,Melbourne and as my proposals are mostly based on common sense then forget it.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I can't remember where I read it, so I can't link it here, but the government contract with Bombadier had an option for an additional 100 E(2)'s after the initial 50, so half of that option has been taken up.
A government strategy paper dated 2015 (sorry, again no link) said they wanted 80 more on top of the original 50 E's by 2021. Assuming that little has changed then there are potentially up to another 30 be added to the Bombadier's order books in the next year or two

Neil
ngarner
I do not see how that is going to happen given a the slow rate of building these trams and getting them into service and b) the Government is spending $250 Million overhauling the old low floor and high floor trams. Nowhere in that Transport Rolling stock plan was it stated that refurbishment were to take place.

Considering it has taken 6 Years to get 79 in service, I cannot see another 30 coming on stream in the next year or two.

Michael
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

It's been a pretty steady 1 a month for years. What's to say that won't continue for another 30 months (December 2020)? Seems pretty plausible to me.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

It's been a pretty steady 1 a month for years. What's to say that won't continue for another 30 months (December 2020)? Seems pretty plausible to me.
potatoinmymouth
You mean December 2021, don't you? Anyway we will wait and see considering that the state government are investing $250 Million in refurbishing old trams.

Michael
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

[quote=You mean December 2021, don't you? Anyway we will wait and see considering that the state government are investing $250 Million in refurbishing old trams.[/quote]
Whoops, yes, my bad.

The 21 on order are just as locked in as the refurbishments. Another order of 10 next year or the year after is hardly implausible.
  Chrono Detector Assistant Commissioner

Location: Tram 57/59
It would be interesting to see that Essendon to get E class trams but I don't think that will happen anytime soon, as Essendon is a rather small depot and cannot fit multiple E class trams unless if they build a new depot or extend the roads to store more trams but that requires time and money for that to happen.

I'm a huge fan of the B class trams and I regularly use Essendon tram routes (57, 59) and would like to see B2 classes operating on the 57, but I heard due to infrastructure issues on the 57, mainly at the North Melbourne section (Errol Street?) that prevents B2 classes from operating on the route, its ridiculous that the 57 gets quite packed during peak hour and a Z3 tram isn't cutting it.
  matthewg Train Controller

Hey all,
          The problem with the E Class is as i see it is the very slow delivery rate and entry into service times.It should all run like a well oiled machine now the same as it did way back with the Z's,A's,B's & D's where you had sometimes 2 or 3 trams entering service at a time at short intervals not one every 3 months.
tram1041


If they were delivered faster the government would have to pay for them faster. If the paymasters were prepared to hand over the money faster, Bombardier could build the trams faster. I really don't think the construction time is just Bombardier being slow - they are building them at the rate requested.
  tram1041 Station Staff

It would be interesting to see that Essendon to get E class trams but I don't think that will happen anytime soon, as Essendon is a rather small depot and cannot fit multiple E class trams unless if they build a new depot or extend the roads to store more trams but that requires time and money for that to happen.

I'm a huge fan of the B class trams and I regularly use Essendon tram routes (57, 59) and would like to see B2 classes operating on the 57, but I heard due to infrastructure issues on the 57, mainly at the North Melbourne section (Errol Street?) that prevents B2 classes from operating on the route, its ridiculous that the 57 gets quite packed during peak hour.
Chrono Detector
Hey all,
           Essendon depot has 6 outside storage roads which at the moment if filled to capacity hold roughly 18-20 B Class and if you extended those roads back to the fence like they used to be you would get at least 4 more so if E Class did go to Esssendon you could get i believe you would get at least 10 on these roads.You can achieve this by allowing Malvern to take over the remaining 25-30% of route 58 and sending Z3's from Essendon to Malvern to make space.Also if Bwk were to take a little more of the route 6 Malvern would have room for the extra trams.

           As for the B's on the 57 i have been told that there are now no restrictions on them running N/M other than some safety zones are technically a bit short but still can be used and the PTV apparently the ones opposed to it.I don't know if you remember the route 50 that used to run  from the City to Abbotsford st through N/M,but another better option i believe would be to reinstate this route and run the 57 via Flemington Rd instead a much quicker,better more direct service. Both of these scenarios are a very easy fix but no one is prepared to stick their neck out and get stuff done.Trains and railways usually get the majority of funds for infrastructure work,whereas tram infrastructure work unless really necessary does not.There are so many little bits of trackwork that could be done now to make the system more flexible and to allow expanded services NOW!! but nothing will happen because it is Victoria and unfortunately Victoria and common sense don't go together.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The infrastructure issues in North Melbourne you refer to are the tram "Safety Zones" at the tram stops along Victoria St, Errol St, Queensberry St and Abbotsford St. Some of them aren't long enough for anything bigger than a short single car Z or A class tram to be fully within the safety zone.

To run longer trams, these stops could easily be lengthened, or for a more long term solution, they could be upgraded to DDA compliant level access stops, which is required in the long term anyway. That said, Level Access stops aren't much use though until low floor trams are introduced on that route, which at my estimation is a long way off, so just lenghtening the current stops would be suitable.

So it would only take a small amount of work to allow the B class to run along the 57.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Threads pop up about this every 6 months or so. People have been mentioning everything from cutting the planned 150 tram order short, moving the 96 operations to New Preston and adding more roads at Brunswick for years, but it never happens.

The E class roll out has been steady at around 1 a month for a while now with another 10 seemly added reliably with each years budget. Likely this will just continue until all 150 have been ordered. Technically the whole rollout is about two years behind where it was originally planned to be because of the slow start, but it seems the built wont be sped up.

In my opinion the 109 would be the next logical route. The C class struggles in the morning peak and the route could be run split between Kew and Southbank or from New Preston, even if partially, where there is plenty of room.

The downside of the 109 is that it would just free up C classes which would likely go to the 48...which in turn creates a surplus of useless A classes.

Failing that, I would go for the 75 which would have the benefit of freeing up a lot of B class trams. B class is badly needed on the 57.
  tram1041 Station Staff



The downside of the 109 is that it would just free up C classes which would likely go to the 48...which in turn creates a surplus of useless A classes.

Failing that, I would go for the 75 which would have the benefit of freeing up a lot of B class trams. B class is badly needed on the 57.
0Mr. Lane

Hey all,
          It would have the same result with the A Class if they were put on the 75,the B's would be put on the 70 instead resulting in surplus A's.I actually like the A's on the whole,essentially they are a mini B Class.If you had surplus A's ,you could potentially retire some of the worst Z3's.I still think however the best way to get B's on the 57 would be for Malvern to take over all of the 58 with Essendon to send their Z3's there to cover the extra work.As i stated previously you could then run the route via Flemington rd for a better result potetially through route it with a Swanston st service via Victoria st and reinstate the route 50.


                                       Regards Timbo.
  Chrono Detector Assistant Commissioner

Location: Tram 57/59
If Malvern were to take 100% operation of the 58 with only Z3's and D1's, people will complain not having B2's on the route, and personally I find D1's are the worst tram introduced in Melbourne with their smaller size and small number of seats. A B2 can carry more passengers, not sure what M>Tram was thinking when they ordered those D trams from Siemens.

And having constant Z3's on route 58 isn't cutting it either, people complained about it back then when route 58 was created with frequent Z3's on the route because Essendon transferred some of their B2's to Brunswick and Glenhuntly resulting in a shortage of B2's. Not sure if Malvern taking over the whole operation of 58 is a good idea.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

In the recent state budget the government announced that an additional 10 E class trams will be purchased bringing the total to 100 of which 77 have been delivered so far.

.........................................................................................
mike49


The total order at the moment is for 90: 50 E-Class and 40 E2-Class (20, 10, 10). If E2.6078 makes it into service by June 30 there will 78 in service, with 13 delivered in each of the last 2 financial years. This leaves 12 for the next FY. (From VicSig.)
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

If Malvern were to take 100% operation of the 58 with only Z3's and D1's, people will complain not having B2's on the route, and personally I find D1's are the worst tram introduced in Melbourne with their smaller size and small number of seats. A B2 can carry more passengers, not sure what M>Tram was thinking when they ordered those D trams from Siemens.

And having constant Z3's on route 58 isn't cutting it either, people complained about it back then when route 58 was created with frequent Z3's on the route because Essendon transferred some of their B2's to Brunswick and Glenhuntly resulting in a shortage of B2's. Not sure if Malvern taking over the whole operation of 58 is a good idea.
Chrono Detector
Because D1's like the D2's and the C1's are cheap off the shelf trams. And they are low floor.

Michael
  matthewg Train Controller

Because D1's like the D2's and the C1's are cheap off the shelf trams. And they are low floor.

Michael
mejhammers1
The Combinos were so 'good' that Siemens practically exited the tram/LRV market for 10 years.

Alston didn't build another 3 section Citadis for a similar amount of time. (Citadis 'compact' is now back)
  tram1041 Station Staff

In the recent state budget the government announced that an additional 10 E class trams will be purchased bringing the total to 100 of which 77 have been delivered so far.

.........................................................................................


The total order at the moment is for 90: 50 E-Class and 40 E2-Class (20, 10, 10). If E2.6078 makes it into service by June 30 there will 78 in service, with 13 delivered in each of the last 2 financial years. This leaves 12 for the next FY. (From VicSig.)
kitchgp
Hey all,
          The current order for the E Class stands at 100.Initial order of 80 plus 10 from each of the last two state budgets.
  tram1041 Station Staff

If Malvern were to take 100% operation of the 58 with only Z3's and D1's, people will complain not having B2's on the route, and personally I find D1's are the worst tram introduced in Melbourne with their smaller size and small number of seats. A B2 can carry more passengers, not sure what M>Tram was thinking when they ordered those D trams from Siemens.

And having constant Z3's on route 58 isn't cutting it either, people complained about it back then when route 58 was created with frequent Z3's on the route because Essendon transferred some of their B2's to Brunswick and Glenhuntly resulting in a shortage of B2's. Not sure if Malvern taking over the whole operation of 58 is a good idea.
Chrono Detector
Hey all,
          If Brunswick were to take on the whole routes 6 then most of the D1's could be used on the 58.The plan as far as i recall was to have some of the extra E's on order to go to Southbank to help with the 58,wherever it runs from,but according to various people Southbank does not have room for any Extra E's.That is why i suggested running the route 12 via Latrobe stand sharing it with Kew along with some A's thus eliminating route 30 and transferring some more A's out thus creating room for more E's even possibly storing some of the worst Z3's and replacing them with A's.You could still potentially have some B2's on the 58 as the 57 would only need 6 -8 B Class to start with which would be enough to help with the loading.Weekend services could be all B Class as there would be less trams on the road but to be run via Flemington rd.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

No E-Class trams were ordered in the 2018 Budget. A current page from the Victorian Government website (at the bottom):
https://transport.vic.gov.au/our-transport-future/our-projects/new-upgraded-trains-and-trams/new-train-and-tram-orders
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

When will high capacity trams be coming, most likely for the 86 and 96. Would be nice to solve capacity and demand with the luas variant of tram, which is 55m in length
  Obzerva Station Master

Location: #6 / Glen Waverley line
When will high capacity trams be coming, most likely for the 86 and 96. Would be nice to solve capacity and demand with the luas variant of tram, which is 55m in length
ptvcommuter

Wouldn't that require rebuilding every platform stop to make them longer?
Couldn't see that happening.

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