Sydney Trains S Set - Scrapping has recommenced :(

  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

Some shots I've found on flickr. Pretty good illustration of 2 very good looking Comeng cars (3861 and 3912). The key thing to note with these 2 cars is the very good condition of the "face" of the cars where many others over time became susceptible to dents, dings or some other form of patch work. If 2 more Comeng power cars are to be kept as part of the last cars, these 2 should rank highly I think. A set such as C3861-D4003-T4983-C3912 would be very good. Full credit to all the photographers who have shared these photos.

C3861 photos

13 July 2017. C3861 at rear of S56 at Merrylands

25 September 2018. C3861 leading S146 on UP through Leightonfield.

11 April 2019. C3861 (S56) on the left and C3912 (S67) on the right at Macdonaldtown stabling being readied ahead of afternoon peak

C3912 photos

02 February 2019. Shows 750D at Allawah station with C3018-T4118-T4157-C3912. This was a special occasion with some filming taking place as S sets haven't run on the Illawarra line since about 2013

02 February 2019. S66 with C3912 at Allawah station for filming purposes

02 February 2019. S66 with C3912 at Allawah station for filming purposes

C3871 photo. This one was part of S135 which ran the last service, but I would not rank it above the 3861 and 3912 in terms of outward appearance/condition

05 March 2019. S135/S2 at Revesby with Waratah B set in background with C3871

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  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

S Sets left at Flemington MC:

S28:         C3765-T4050-C3912
S56:         C3001-T4101-T4961-C3862
S61:         C3930-T4030-T4037-C3931
S64:         C3861
S100:       T4013-C3891
S123:       C3971-T4926-T4002-C3986
S135:       C3871-T4003
S140:       C3057-T4141-T4983-C3947


Based on that list above that is left after the last 24 cars were sent off to scrap today, it could be further narrowed down to something like this:-

S28:         C3765-T4050-C3912
S56:         C3001-T4101-T4961-C3862
S64:         C3861
S100:       T4013
S123:       T4002-C3986
S135:       C3871-T4003
S140:       C3057-T4983

This would give 15 cars, however, you don't need both 4002 and 4003, so one would go (whichever one not in as good condition) and then that would give you exactly 14 cars (16 if you include C3805 and T4150).

The Final Sets could be re-arranged as:-

Set 1:          C3765-T4050-T4013-C3861 (last Comeng suburban power car and one of oldest still operable)
Set 2:          C3001-T4101-T4961-C3862 (currently S56)
Set 3:          C3912-T4003-T4983-C3986 (1st and last Comeng Mk 3 Contract cars)

This would be 12 cars exactly, (14 with C3805 and T4150 included).

If they however do perhaps elect to keep 1 or 2 additional cars beyond the 14 they've said, C3057 could be No. 15 as a second Goninan car and perhaps No. 16 could be C3871 - however based on the photos above showing outward appearance/condition I wouldn't pick C3871 over C3861 or C3912
  C3765 Train Controller

Correction for my previous post. C3915 is part of S123 instead of C3971. C3971 has already been scrapped. I didn’t edit my previous post because nobody would’ve noticed the change.
  C3765 Train Controller

Tomorrow S56 (C3001-T4101-T4961-C3862) and I think S28 (C3986-T4013-T4050-C3765) will be used. I’m not sure if S28 will be used for the 3 Generation Run but it will be coupled to S56 for the afternoon tour. C3001 and C3765 will probably be at each of the ends. On TripView it shows that the 3 generation run will be operated by an 8-Car S Set but it may be a 4 Car S Set, I’m not too sure. Maybe someone else will be able to confirm.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

It ran as S28/S56 with C3986 leading and C3862 trailing the 8 car set. So I guess that's confirmed the 2 retained sets. Will be interesting to see which other cars are retained. That means C3861 and C3912 are by themselves now?
  C3765 Train Controller

It’s now official that the NSW Government will only be transferring 10 S Set Carriages to the State-Owned Heritage Collection, managed by Transport Heritage and operated by Sydney Trains. Those being previously mentioned cars; C3805, C3862, C3986, C3765, C3001, T4013, T4961, T4050, T4101 and T4150. Since they are no longer in the hands of Sydney Trains the Sets may or may not be renumbered ‘S4’ and ‘S5’. The only connection between the two is half of 56 is 28.

Although the remaining cars have not been chosen for the states collection which was chosen based on historic significance, it is now time for private restoration/preservation groups such as SETS to take their share of cars. SETS have preserved various other retired electric train carriages and in all instances lots of them.

SETS own:

10 Suburban Single Deck Motor Cars
4  Suburban Single Deck Trailer Cars

7 Interurban Single Deck Motor Cars
5 Interurban Single Deck Trailer Cars

So I’m pretty sure they won’t disappoint us. Hopefully they’ll preserve at least 6 Cars, a full 4 Car Set and 2 Spares. From looking at previously purchased cars, they seem to want one of each type and often save cars from scrap so I think they may save either C3814 or C3840 in the future.

C3814 was stripped of parts to provide parts for C3805, however as it was intended to be preserved and I am sure there is no trace of asbestos. Also I doubt it was sold to the scrappers with the recently withdrawn cars so it should be safe for now. I think cars C3814, T4058 and C3840 could be sold in the future as they probably don’t have any asbestos and are in decent condition.
  C3765 Train Controller

Today I was able to sight the following:

Back of FMC (Towards Lidcombe)                                                                   Front of FMC (Towards City)

    C3915-C3891        C3861-T4926-T4002-C3912
(Both Facing Lidcombe)         (Ex S123)

                                                                             (Ex S28)                             (Ex S56)
                                             (Ex S140)                           (Ex S61)
                                             (Ex S135)

All Sets including Sunday’s S28 and S56 have had their target plates removed, likely to renumber the Sets. Former Sets S28, S56, S61 and S140 all had their pantographs up. I’m not sure but I think maybe all of the Motor cars had their pantographs up which mean for now they are still operational. S140 and S61 seem to have been left untouched since the day of its final operation on the 28th of June 2019.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

Someone said that C3915 had been taken off S123 (formerly C3915-T4926-T4003-C3986) and was stored at the back of Flemington MC by itself and will eventually be scrapped - this was at the time of the mass scrap movement on 17 July 2019, while C3986 was taken off S123 to form the heritage set S28. I'd imagine that C3891 will probably be sent to scrap as well and only survived because according to your earlier post it was attached to T4013 which ended up being put on the preserved set S28 - the fact that it is now with C3915 is further suggestion it will go to scrap. The interesting thing is how they've re-marshaled to create C3861-T4926-T4002-C3912, will this set go to scrap or be the preserved set? It would be great if this was the preserved set. C3861 and C3912 are good cars and the inclusion of the driving control trailer with cab (such as 4002) would be great.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

I've seen posts which say that there are 28 S set carriages left at Flemington MC. One says that out of those 28 cars, approximately 8 will go to scrap, which would leave 20 cars (or 5 4 car sets), not including C3805 and T4150. If that is true, we know that 3 4 car sets at FMC are going to be preserved - S28, S56 and one other (possibly the one with 3861-4926-4002-C3912). The other 8 cars might be a back up emergency 8 car set, unless there is some other 3rd party group(s) that have expressed interest in acquiring a few cars for preservation.

Based on what has been posted here by people, I can only count 24 cars at FMC, although there is question as to what happened to C3748 and C3976 which it seems haven't been listed as having gone to scrap + 2 other unknown cars to make it 28.

Also, interesting that out of all the sets that went to scrap on the 17th, they left behind S140 and S61. S140 is a half goninan/half Comeng set, wonder if that had something to do with it.
  C3765 Train Controller

S61 & S140 & the two Motor cars at the back C3915 and C3891 will be going to Chullora from what I know. There may be a couple of cars from S140 to be retained.

I think the 28 cars are:

Sets (carriages in groups):
C3986-T4050-T4013-C3765-C3862-T4961-T4101-C3001 (8)
C3057-T4141-T4983-C3947-C3930-T4030-T4031-C3931 (8)
C3861-T4926-T4002-C3912 (4)

Individual Cars:

C3748, T4018, C3976, C3871, T4003, C3891, C3915, ???? (8)

Transport Heritage NSW manages preserved cars from the State-Owned Heritage Collection as well as the Transport Heritage NSW collection. So far cars from Ex S28 & Ex S56 + C3805 and T4150 (10 cars) have officially been added to the states collection. I think C3912-T4926 or T4983-T4002-C3861 will become apart of the Transport Heritage NSW collection, bringing the total numbers of cars preserved by Transport Heritage NSW to 14 as promised. When the Transport minister said “we” will be preserving 14, I think they were referring only to Transport Heritage NSW.

Sydney Electric Train Society will no doubt be adding a dozen or so cars to its collection like it has for previously withdrawn train types. So far they’ve got, 3 Electric locomotives, a full 7-Car monorail Set, 14 suburban Single Deck cars and 12 interurban Single Deck cars. Usually they purchase one of each type of car and a couple extra cars purchased by members. This would explain all of the duplicates kept at FMC. I think they would prefer significant cars but an example of each type will probably do as their choices are limited.

Comeng Series 1

Motor Cars (C3805-C3857)

C3805 (THNSW) and C3814 (SETS)

Comeng Series 2

Motor Cars (C3858-C3911)

C3861 & C3862 (THNSW) C3871? (SETS)

Ex Driving Trailer Cars (T4011-T4020)

T4013 (THNSW) and T4018 (SETS)

Standard Trailer Cars (T4921-T4962)

T4926 and/or T4961 (THNSW) T4926? (SETS)

Comeng Series 3

Motor Cars (C3912-C3986)

C3912 and C3986 (THNSW) and C3930 or C3931 or C3947? (SETS)

Ex Driving Trailer Cars (T4021-T4070)

T4050 (THNSW) and T4030 or T4037 (SETS)

Trailer Cars (T4963-T4987)

T4983 (THNSW or SETS)

Comeng Series 4

Motor Cars (C3741-C3765)

C3765 (THNSW) and C3748 (SETS)

Ex Driving Trailer Cars (T4071-T4095 and T4001-T4010)

T4002? Ex D4079 (THNSW) and T4003? Ex D4080 (SETS) -Could be the other way around.

Goninan Series

Early Design Motor Cars (C3001-C3017 and C3018-C3020)

C3001 (THNSW)

Early Design Trailer Cars (T4101-T4102 and T4103-T4110)

T4101 (THNSW)

Later Design Motor Cars (C3021-C3080)

C3057? (SETS)

Later Design Trailer Cars (T4111-T4170)

T4150 (THNSW) T4141? (SETS)

C3814 and C3840 are both currently non-operational but that will certainly not stop SETS from purchasing them. They are distinct from the other cars which will make them want at least one example of them even if they need major repairs. C3840 may be preferred because it has the added bonus of headlights. They have saved many endangered cars from becoming scrap so I am hopeful that either one will be preserved.
  r_rogel Junior Train Controller

How about DSRM?
  C3765 Train Controller

Today I’ve realised that S123 is actually only two cars in length. I think it is C3861 and T4926 but I’m not too sure. I have also noticed an extra Comeng motor car (and possibly other cars behind) next to cars C3057 (S140/S61) and C3871 (S135)

Back of FMC (Towards Lidcombe)                                               Front of FMC (Towards City)

   C3915-C3891        C3861-T4926
(Both Facing Lidcombe)         (Ex S123)

                                                                            (Ex S28)                             (Ex S56)
                                            (Ex S140)                          (Ex S61)

                                            (Ex S135)

All cars still had their pantos up.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

Eventually we'll find out what makes it with the next (and probably final) scrap run.

With what has survived, you could easily form another 8 car set with "one of each type" of car. This would largely hinge on if C3057 and C3748 survive as they are the only Goninan and Comeng Mk 4 cars left in existence outside of C3001 and C3765.
  The Inevitable Looney Station Staff

Wonder if Sydney Trains would put an S set on the Olympic Park shuttles during the Model Railway Exhibition in October.  Putting heritage stock to revenue earning use?
  C3765 Train Controller

Wonder if Sydney Trains would put an S set on the Olympic Park shuttles during the Model Railway Exhibition in October. Putting heritage stock to revenue earning use?
The Inevitable Looney
They have done something similar with preserved W Set, “W3” before back in the early 2000s? That exact set “W3” is scheduled to return by the end of the year so they could possibly do that. Up until the S Sets were withdrawn, “F1” was the only operational Heritage electric train which they could use for special occasions. Unfortunately, it requires about 10 door monitors and is hard to use for events like this, however “W3” and the S Sets have power operated doors so they can be used on such occasions. In another thread, they mentioned that once they had power door sets (S & W Sets), they would be able to have more frequent tours, longer tours and occasionally have them run shuttles on special days such as W3 doing shuttles over the Harbour Bridge on Australia Day (no tickets needed, just an opal card). They could do that during the event you mentioned if “W3” is available but I think it’ll be a bit too early to return the S Sets there as it had been operating that line until just recently.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

A video shared by Vernon Fernandez on the final days of S sets, so full credit to him for this.

Of note at 09:13 you see the marshaling of the 24 cars mass moved to scrap on Wednesday, 17 July 2019
  C3765 Train Controller

I think I’ve finally figured out why the S Sets did not last until September as I expected.

Just a quick recap:

Originally the last of the S Sets were scheduled to be withdrawn following the delivery and commissioning of all 24 B Sets in March 2019. However, the delivery of the Waratah Series 2 Sets was behind schedule which resulted in the slowing down of the S Set withdrawal process and allowed the remaining sets to continue operating services on Sector 2 both during and off peak. Meanwhile, the Sydney Metro had reached its final weeks of testing and a new timetable to provide more frequent services on sector 3 was announced to commence on the 26th of April which would also see the end of S Sets in regular service. Fortunately for the S Sets, only 22 of the 24 B Sets had entered service by then due to the extended testing of sets B23 and B24 which were equipped with special maintenance equipment which was not present on the rest of the 22 B Sets. In addition, Phase 2 of the Tangara Technology Upgrade Program (a program to extend the life of the Tangara trains which were already in or nearing 30 years of service) was also delayed. A decision was made to accelerate the program by taking an extra 2x 4T out of service for upgrades. Consequently, to cover for B23, B24 and an 8T, an 8-Car A Set replaced the 8T, a 8 Car B Set replaced the 8A, 2x 8 Car K Sets covered for B24 and the 8B, an 8 Car S Set covered for B24 and 4x 4 Car S Sets covered for the 2x 8Ks.  By late June 2019, all 24 B Sets had entered service. From the 23rd of June 2019 shortly after B24 entered service K Sets replaced the 2x 4S on the Carlingford Line, only 2x 4 Car S Sets were timetabled for service at this point although there were S Sets replacing K Sets daily. The Olympic Park S Sets were supposed to remain in service to cover for the extra 8T which was taken out for upgrades until September but that did not happen and the S Sets ran regular passenger services for the last time on the 28th of June 2019.

The shortage of an 8 Car T Set wouldn’t have allowed the S Sets to be withdrawn otherwise they would’ve done so when B24 entered service. The reason as to why the S Sets were withdrawn remained a mystery to me until just recently. The S Sets on the Olympic Park Line were replaced by 2x 4 Car Tangaras as a result of the unexpected return of former ATP Test Sets T13 and T103. The S Sets were no longer required because there was enough air conditioned trains as a result. T13 and T103 did not enter service until around mid or late July but the S Sets were withdrawn on the 28th of June instead of 5th or 12th of July because it made more sense as it was the end of the financial year. It also explain why the S Sets were not decommissioned until the 21st of July 2019. If T13 and T103 had not returned, the S Sets may still be in service.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I think I’ve finally figured out why the S Sets did not last until September as I expected.
It's quite easy: Constance, and political point-scoring. As such, we're left short. Tried catching the Cumberland Line in peak hour through Westmead? Yeah, good luck to you.
  C3765 Train Controller

S28 and S56 are no longer at the front of FMC. I don’t know if it was because of the dark but I did not see a single S Set car at FMC today when passing it. They haven’t been sent to Chullora have they? Maybe they were moved to the other side.
  C3765 Train Controller

I was wrong. I checked again today before it gets too dark and they all seem to still be there. I couldn’t see S28 and S56 but I did see most of the other cars. A couple of cars have shuffled. Now former S135 is four cars from what I could see. I think it was C3871-T4003-T4983-C3XX. C3057 was a couple of roads next to ExS135. A Comeng Motor Car and an A Set was between them. All sets still have pantographs up. S123 still remains a 2-Car Set. All pantographs are still up. Tangaras and Waratahs are starting to become a more common sight at FMC due to the extra space that is now available.
  C3765 Train Controller

C3057 is no longer at the back of FMC like it was previously, suggesting it is now stored under cover or part of a set.
  C3765 Train Controller

The two motor cars and half of S123 (C3915-T4926) are no longer at the back of FMC. C3915-Unknown Car-C3976-T4018 were at the washing plant, confirming that C3976, C3748 and T4018 were indeed saved from becoming scrapped and stored at FMC this whole time. T4018s doors were open similarly to how C3748 had its doors open in one of the photos posted previously. Some cars have pantographs up while others do not. C3915, C3976 and C3871 were the only cars with their pantographs down that I was able to see the car numbers of.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

The two motor cars and half of S123 (C3915-T4926) are no longer at the back of FMC. C3915-Unknown Car-C3976-T4018 were at the washing plant, confirming that C3976, C3748 and T4018 were indeed saved from becoming scrapped and stored at FMC this whole time. T4018s doors were open similarly to how C3748 had its doors open in one of the photos posted previously. Some cars have pantographs up while others do not. C3915, C3976 and C3871 were the only cars with their pantographs down that I was able to see the car numbers of.

It's been said that C3915, which was stored with C3891 at the back of FMC would go to scrap eventually, which indicates that C3891 would as well. If these 2 cars go to scrap then it's no surprise. C3748 is more of a rarity as it is now the only other Comeng Mk 4 in existence. I had a quick look on flickr and found the shot below of it. If it gets kept, it looks to be a very good looking Comeng in it's condition, which would make it a good keep (on top of the rarity factor).

Depending on how many more cars get kept, as far as I understand, C3057, like C3748, is now the only other one of it's contract left. In terms of the Mk 2 and 3's, there's a couple there left. I think C3912 is the key one as far as Mk 3 is concerned. In terms of Mk 2, possibly C3861. Something like these 4 cars would give you a one of each type contract motor car (Goninan, Comeng Mk 2, 3 and 4)

This is a shot of C3748 leading S28 on 13 November 2018 through Beverly Hills. Full credit to Thomas Bulic for this great shot

C3976 on S28 on 08 March 2018 pulling into Redfern. Credit to NR1984 for this shot
  C3765 Train Controller

SydneyCider was correct. C3891 was the Car coupled between C3915 and C3976. Sometime after I last saw the 4-Cars, C3915s pantograph was removed, confirming that their next and final destination will be Chullora. T4018 may only have been kept aside incase, they were unable to preserve T4013 for whatever reason and is no longer needed. C3976 does not have much significance so it makes sense that they would not be keeping this car. C3915 and C3891 were only retained as they were coupled to the two preserved driving trailers T4002 and T4013. The 4-Cars and S61 will probably make up the final S Set Train to be transferred to Chullora for scrapping S140 has already been disbanded with T4983 forming part of a new set (C3871-T4003-T4983-C3XXX).
  C3765 Train Controller

Today, I was able to sight the consist of the scrap train.
From the back C3915-C3891-C3976-T4018-C3748-C3912-T4926 and more cars (likely S61).
I think C3057 was next to C3915, so it wasn’t apart of the consist

Between the cars C3748 and C3912, there was a gap so they are not coupled for now.

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