Designing Victoria’s Next Generation Trams And Trains

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 23 Sep 2019 10:10
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
While we’re at it sims, have would you have us make them “a little more modern”? Gut the interior and put some 90s CountryLink carpet in?
potatoinmymouth
Nah, Go further. Just Swap in 70's GSR interiors into them instead. What could go wrong

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Why don't you buy the Xplorer's from NSW for use on the SG. They were built in Victoria and run as well as anything else you have south of the murray and are designed for services much longer then anything you currently do south of the border.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The VLocity is literally one of the most reliable and fastest-accelerating DMUs in the world, there’s no legitimate reason to accuse its transmission of being ‘hopeless’.

Sometimes you can actually design and build a good train in Australia instead of getting the Spaniards to cook one up for you.
LancedDendrite

What good design are you talking about. Surely it can't be the vlocity which is constantly being bagged on here by victorians who want to continue with loco hauled services. Surely not the new long distance vlocity that some are complaining as too heavy. Is this the good design you are talking about. The vlocity is just an Xplorer with a different face, newer engine and an updated transmission.

That spanish thing cooked up has a significantly better engine that powers an electric drive system and a panto for use under the wires. It also has an alloy body and will be lighter then your overweight vlocity. It will have a buffet and I believe discussions are ongoing for sleeper carriages.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

While we’re at it sims, have would you have us make them “a little more modern”? Gut the interior and put some 90s CountryLink carpet in?
potatoinmymouth

If you think 90s countrylink is modern then you mexicans really are stuck in the 1970's.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The VLocity is literally one of the most reliable and fastest-accelerating DMUs in the world, there’s no legitimate reason to accuse its transmission of being ‘hopeless’.

Sometimes you can actually design and build a good train in Australia instead of getting the Spaniards to cook one up for you.

What good design are you talking about. Surely it can't be the vlocity which is constantly being bagged on here by victorians who want to continue with loco hauled services. Surely not the new long distance vlocity that some are complaining as too heavy. Is this the good design you are talking about. The vlocity is just an Xplorer with a different face, newer engine and an updated transmission.

That spanish thing cooked up has a significantly better engine that powers an electric drive system and a panto for use under the wires. It also has an alloy body and will be lighter then your overweight vlocity. It will have a buffet and I believe discussions are ongoing for sleeper carriages.
simstrain
finally @simstrain you acknowledge the stupidity of the "Xplorer is better than Vlocity" BS.

probably correct that there are still those that dream of steam towed wooden boxes, but even V/line is moving on.

You asked why not just buy Xlporer for the Victoria SG line.
Pretty simple, they are even older technology and too bloody slow.
Xplorer 145kph, Vlocity 160kph  (160 vs 210 design, but restricted due to crap tracks)

As for VL76-79 being "too heavy". That is NOT the long distance version.
It's a development re-config to squeeze a few more Pax into, whilst the major (heaviness) task is to give the drivers a safe crash barrier.
The latter bit is absolutely essential, the former doesn't seems to work so good (jury is still out whether to be kept).

Interior fit-out differences are SFA,
apart from the missing buffet cars which will be part of the long distance Vlo package, which have just been ordered.
In addition all the other 75 sets are going to have a re-fit in the next 2 years.

and Spanish thing.
Oh god no - not another specialized (read small) production run to fragment the Australian manufacturing base further into oblivion.

cheers
John
  route14 Chief Commissioner

If the overweight sets were to be altered to have 470 kW engines they would have the same power rating as Sprinters, and will probably have the same speed limit unless the transmission ratio gets changed to achieve a higher top speed, but by the same token slacking acceleration when starting.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
If the overweight sets were to be altered to have 470 kW engines they would have the same power rating as Sprinters, and will probably have the same speed limit unless the transmission ratio gets changed to achieve a higher top speed, but by the same token slacking acceleration when starting.
route14
WHYYYYYYY ????

The "overweight" sets are now operational and no complaints so far.  

Creating yet another variation just makes life harder for all concerned, esp. drivers and mechanics.

cheers
John
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

My suggestion of buying the xplorer's was more tongue in cheek. In any case since when have I ever stated that the Xplorer is better then the vlocity. I've always stated that the vlo was just an upgraded xplorer mechanically with an intercity interior. I've suggested that the vlo is not a regional train but just an intercity train because it really doesn't do any long distances.

The Xplorer may have a top service speed of 145km/h but that is still faster then the 130km/h allowed on the NE on flat terrain.
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

I doubt it is fair to call 76-79 overweight. Appears older V/L trains similar weight, hence this quartet can run with no more restrictions than rest of fleet.

They seem to go as well or better than other V/Ls, just as fast say at Big Hill tunnel, even got to back off for the 130 curves.

By all means criticise the truly awful seats. Or lack of toilets. Terrible on a Bendigo or Traralgon, maybe ok for Geelong and Bacchus Marsh.

I hope they don’t do such improvements to rest of fleet.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

A small production run of 117 carriages for now but likely to be increased now that we know they are to be bi modal. As for production in Australia then maybe start offering something that is modern and attractive and not just a rehash of an old concept from the early 90's.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I remember reading somewhere that the overweight units have to be rebuilt, but if they're running, that's fine with me.
  NimbleJack Station Master

The 'overweight' VLocitys are NOT speed limited.

This is just as silly as the perennial claptrap about long-distance BG VLocitys with buffets, parlour cars and starched cabin valets.

Where do people in this forum get their information from? Ouija boards and fortune cookies?
  NimbleJack Station Master

https://www.rtbuvic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/RTBU-EXPRESS-10-2018.pdf#page=2
kitchgp

Do you know what the letters 'BG' stand for?

The current long-distance VLocity project involves only standard-gauge sets. The main differences for passengers will be a buffet module and upgraded seating. The original idea of a four-car set seems to be losing steam.

Nobody involved in running Victorian passenger trains wants another type of broad-gauge VLocity to deal with - particularly one whose primary purpose is to squander taxpayer dollars on subsidised sausage rolls.

There will be no BG long-distance VLocity variant. End of story. Those who are more than a stone's throw from the coffin might get to see catering aboard whatever model follows the VLocity in their lifetime. Just don't hold your breath.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

No mention of BG or SG in the article. The only difference between a BG long-haul and a SG long-haul would be the interchangeable bogies. It's not going to add an extra type.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

PIM was complaining about the new NSW regional fleet being small and yet this fleet will be extremely small for one particular route to Albury. I don't believe for one second that the Vic government will build these SG vlocities because I believe they were mistakenly banking on bombardier winning the new regional nsw fleet and just ordering a couple of extra to cover Albury. This seriously makes the idea of buying the Xplorers and Endeavours not such a bad idea even though it was said tongue in cheek before.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

PIM was complaining about the new NSW regional fleet being small and yet this fleet will be extremely small for one particular route to Albury. I don't believe for one second that the Vic government will build these SG vlocities because I believe they were mistakenly banking on bombardier winning the new regional nsw fleet and just ordering a couple of extra to cover Albury. This seriously makes the idea of buying the Xplorers and Endeavours not such a bad idea even though it was said tongue in cheek before.
simstrain

The only reason I commented on the size of the NSW order was because I would have thought (hoped) they’d be looking to expand their country services. Sadly it seems not to be so. I would have thought that’d be something we could agree on!

In any case I think you and other people seem to have mistakenly thought this announcement/thread is about the long-haul units; it’s not. As the Transport website says this is a design for a new commuter set, presumably for use to Geelong and Ballarat and most likely electro-diesel in preparation for sparking.

That means there will be a cascade of VLo sets, enabling them to take over the remaining N set routes. I’m quite prepared to believe, though disappointed, that this will occur without any interior mods.

So no, there’s no need to buy clapped-out previous-generation NSW stock.
  NimbleJack Station Master

No one wants the headache of managing a clapped-out gaggle of second-hand NSW rolling stock. The SG VLocitys will be fitted out differently from the rest of fleet, true, but they won't require new maintenance facilities.

If they fix the line - a mighty big IF - they'll be able to knock a good hour off running times while increasing reliability and frequency. Let's hope ARTC get with the programme.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


The only reason I commented on the size of the NSW order was because I would have thought (hoped) they’d be looking to expand their country services. Sadly it seems not to be so. I would have thought that’d be something we could agree on!

In any case I think you and other people seem to have mistakenly thought this announcement/thread is about the long-haul units; it’s not. As the Transport website says this is a design for a new commuter set, presumably for use to Geelong and Ballarat and most likely electro-diesel in preparation for sparking.

That means there will be a cascade of VLo sets, enabling them to take over the remaining N set routes. I’m quite prepared to believe, though disappointed, that this will occur without any interior mods.

So no, there’s no need to buy clapped-out previous-generation NSW stock.
potatoinmymouth

The order may still be expanded. With the change to bi modal it will most likely be expanded beyond 117 units because this option opens up significant opportunities for regional rail in NSW.

I'm not sure why this thread even exists for Victoria really. On the regional network it clearly looks like Victorias future is with the vlocity and I say this even if geelong, bendigo and ballarat are electrified because as the Adelaide A-City class has shown they can be built with a panto and run on electricity.

In trams the E class in either a 2 or 3 car consist looks to be tied in. What more do you need to look at when it comes to trams in Melbourne

Victoria is building it's new metro trains right now and so surely the future would be to build more of what your buiding instead of wasting time and effort on another new piece of electric rolling stock. If what your building works for metro then looking at something new is pointless and the focus should just be on building more of what you are building.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No one wants the headache of managing a clapped-out gaggle of second-hand NSW rolling stock. The SG VLocitys will be fitted out differently from the rest of fleet, true, but they won't require new maintenance facilities.

If they fix the line - a mighty big IF - they'll be able to knock a good hour off running times while increasing reliability and frequency. Let's hope ARTC get with the programme.
NimbleJack
The XPT's are clapped out for sure. The XPlorers are not so bad and you would have more then enough of them to cover if a set goes down. They could get an upgraded interior and the upgraded engine and transmission from a vlocity without any issues and they are already SG. They would surely be a signifcant upgrade over the N class and since victoria likes old things is it really such a big deal to take some hand me downs.

But I digress. How many SG vlocities are they really going to need for just a single line. Considering how much care vline put in to the SG conversion on the murray basin network what makes you think they want to put any care in to SG services. Why are they wasting so much time and effort on the rail service to Albury for.

Good luck with the ARTC improving the NE but atleast it wouldn't be as dire as vline building SG. I'm still a firm believer that with the state that the XPT's are in that the XPT services to Melbourne will be cancelled permanently very soon and that the new regional rolling stock will go no further then Albury.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
I'm not sure why this thread even exists for Victoria really. On the regional network it clearly looks like Victorias future is with the vlocity and I say this even if geelong, bendigo and ballarat are electrified because as the Adelaide A-City class has shown they can be built with a panto and run on electricity.
simstrain
Meanwhile, you lot north of the border had a nearly 100-page thread speculating on an XPT replacement design, the bulk of the discussion being done before the Government made any announcements. Pot kettle.

What good design are you talking about. Surely it can't be the vlocity which is constantly being bagged on here by victorians who want to continue with loco hauled services. Surely not the new long distance vlocity that some are complaining as too heavy. Is this the good design you are talking about. The vlocity is just an Xplorer with a different face, newer engine and an updated transmission.
simstrain
People who bag out the VLocities complain about the seats. If that was the only complaint made against the XPT then it would be regaled as the Queen Of All Australian Trains. Sometimes the people on this site don't realise how good they have it with the VLocity.

As for the Endeavour/Xplorer, what you are describing is a design lineage; in the same way a VF Commodore is just like a VN Commodore - but with a different engine, updated transmission, different face and so on.

I am sure that Bombardier will put in a competitive bid for both new contracts and both will be based around local assembly with a high degree of local content by value, because Victoria believes in quality domestic manufacturing, something that NSW has forgotten about.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The difference is that Victoria have made decisions and so why are you discussing the future when your future rolling stock is being built in the form of the vlocity, e class and the new metro rolling stock and there is already a thread about them unless I am mistaken. The XPT replacement thread was about what could have been and will be when it is introduced in 2023.

The vlocity seats are fine for the mostly short distance (200-300km's) services it runs.  It is no better or worse then an xplorer since it is the same base with some upgrades to meet year 2010+ Victorian specifications. Again I am only suggesting the Xplorers tongue in cheek and because even if this new sg unit is based on the vlocity it will still be somewhat isolated by being on the SG and really only a fleet of 10-12 units and there are 28 Xplorers with a buffet ready to roll that were made in Victoria.

The Xplorer is nothing at all like a VN commodore. If the vlocity is a vf commodore then the Xplorer is a VE commodore. Same basic architecture just with more modern engineering such as the upgraded engine and transmission and a different looking front and rear. A VN Commodore would be like a railcar from the 50's, 60's or 70's.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The difference is that Victoria have made decisions and so why are you discussing the future when your future rolling stock is being built in the form of the vlocity, e class and the new metro rolling stock and there is already a thread about them unless I am mistaken.
simstrain

You are mistaken, as I’ve tried to point out to you and several other people with comprehension difficulties in this thread.

For the last time: the design process referred to in this press release is FOR A NEW COMMUTER SET. It is NOT for a long-haul train. It is NOT for additional VLocities or what modifications are being made to existing ones.

Is this really so hard to grasp?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


You are mistaken, as I’ve tried to point out to you and several other people with comprehension difficulties in this thread.

For the last time: the design process referred to in this press release is FOR A NEW COMMUTER SET. It is NOT for a long-haul train. It is NOT for additional VLocities or what modifications are being made to existing ones.

Is this really so hard to grasp?
potatoinmymouth

I covered that if you read my posts. Victoria has a new commuter set and there is a thread on it already. Your building new trains for every segment already and so why are you talking about next generation rolling stock when you are already building the next generation rolling stock in the high capacity train. You should be talking about ordering more of these instead of a hypothetical new commuter rolling stock.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller


You are mistaken, as I’ve tried to point out to you and several other people with comprehension difficulties in this thread.

For the last time: the design process referred to in this press release is FOR A NEW COMMUTER SET. It is NOT for a long-haul train. It is NOT for additional VLocities or what modifications are being made to existing ones.

Is this really so hard to grasp?
I covered that if you read my posts. Victoria has a new commuter set and there is a thread on it already. Your building new trains for every segment already and so why are you talking about next generation rolling stock when you are already building the next generation rolling stock in the high capacity train. You should be talking about ordering more of these instead of a hypothetical new commuter rolling stock.
simstrain
1. HCMT is a 10 car train. Won't be able to ( or needed to) be run on every metro line due to the City Loop (mainly)
2. Downer's Newport workshop is space constrained. Bombardier is busy building VLo's and Trams. We need more manufacturing output
3. Alstom has a factory in Ballarat which can build trains. We need them as quick as possible, this is a way of increasing output whilst keeping knowledge in-state rather than outsourcing everything to China/South Korea as NSW has done.

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