Especially with this government. They also said that the new regional fleet would be made in NSW. They also said that they will not replace guards on intercity trains but conveniently never said anything about drivers.

They also said they would build the north west rail link and changed that to the north west metro. This Government has a history of blurring the line. A tender has been put out for new centre pins but in a month they could just casually cancel that tender if it is too expensive and more centre pins break.

Once the XPT service to Melbourne is replaced with coaches then don't expect them to return to rail when the new fleet arrives because they have said so.

The govt said it will build the NW railway line, it did, even though the Feds wouldn't assist.

Like any and all projects, once you get into the detail, costs often dictate a different outcome, hence trains have been built OS.

The Guards are a short term win to appease the union and a few others for now, but I agree the future is single staff trains and the driver is currently the one easier replaced with a computer and less rebuff from the general public, especially with the Metro setting the bench mark.

Repeat after me, "THE MEL XPT WILL NOT BE REPLACED WITH A BUS LONG-TERM"

1. The track is pathetic and it breaks trains and it is completely unsafe just that the ARTC do not want to admit it. The XPT's are becoming increasingly unsafe but the battering they cop from the vic ne certainly doesn't help. I think the evidence will be when the ARTC stuff up again and the vic ne is even worse then before they touched it.
2. That's because there aren't going to be any services very soon the way the XPT's are breaking. Sydney to Grafton and Casino are currently coach services until further notice (most likely well in to next year if not permanently from now on). If any more XPT's break down which service do you think will be coachstituted next? Brisbane or Melbourne?
3. No train services in this country make money.
4. While the sleeper doesn't bother me the day tripper was so much more comfortable (even with the bumps) then even a first class seat. Unless the first class seats are significantly better then what currently exists there will be calls for the sleeper.
5. Luckily for the NSW premier those people don't vote in NSW.
6. I still think there is something more to the maintenance being moved to Dubbo and increased services on this line.

1. Has the track not been improved from its low base?

2. The NSW govt let the track infrastructure run down alot further and was improved by the Feds.

3. So what is actually wrong with the XPT? As the Fleet has plenty of pax cars, I'm guessing its the locos that have failed and is this bumps related?

4. Sleepers on CSO services are history, time to move on and accept this. The XPT takes around 200 people, yet around 10% can ride in a sleeper, hardly justification to retain.

5. The train may not money, but the fees paid for by Vic makes the service cost neutral south of the border.

6. Oh gee wow, they build a MTCE centre at Dubbo, what do you think will happen, Dubbo get 10 services a day? We all know Dubbo will likely get two services a day with the new trains, the justification for more isn't there especially with 2 x Bathurst Bullets. The govt is also keeping the XPL.END fleet for a few years yet, so there is no issue boosting a few commuter services and retaining if not increasing some of the regional services.

The RTT is routine serviced in Gracemere, 700km from Brisbane, yet Rocky only gets 1 service a day. Major work for both RTT and CTT is done 350km north of Brisbane.

Simtrain, just stop making stuff up.  
...
You have no EVIDENCE, thats the problem

I am going to engage in a little speculation of my own.

There is absolutely no need or benefit at all in dual mode on the new fleet for it's currently stated use.  

That said, I've always thought we were a cracked frame away from full bustitution.  When this thread started more than 10 years ago, the XPT fleet was already life expired.  They have had a hard life, done more Ks than any of the design engineers ever envisaged.  Metals fatigues, and eventually something will fail.

As I understand the timetable for the XPT replacement project, we are still a minimum of 4 years away from a serviceable train, probably 5 for enough to replace the original 1981 fleet.  This is because they need the Dubbo plant, planned, approved and eventually built before the can do much toward actually building the trains.  That's not allowing for any significant delays in the project - which of course never happen in NSW - or any stuffups in the specification.

I think the chances are very good the entire fleet will be grounded more or less permanently, or perhaps just the 1980s units (15 of the 19 power cars) before the new trains come online.  After a few years of bustitution, there won't be the demand for services there is now, so when the new fleet comes online, only 4 or so sets will be needed for a train each way each day.  

That will leave the bulk of the new fleet available for "new" services like direct Nowra to Sydney (for which 10 car NIFs would be overkill), a route for which a dual mode vehicle would be perfect.

Or, the entire new fleet project could be scaled back to "match demand" once cost over-runs or delays are encountered.  

Whatever happens, there is a lot of downside risk to passenger rail services, and not a lot of upside as the project - at best - is designed to emulate the 1990s "reformed" service.

Simtrain, just stop making stuff up.  
...
You have no EVIDENCE, thats the problem

I am going to engage in a little speculation of my own.

There is absolutely no need or benefit at all in dual mode on the new fleet for it's currently stated use.  

That said, I've always thought we were a cracked frame away from full bustitution.  When this thread started more than 10 years ago, the XPT fleet was already life expired.  They have had a hard life, done more Ks than any of the design engineers ever envisaged.  Metals fatigues, and eventually something will fail.

As I understand the timetable for the XPT replacement project, we are still a minimum of 4 years away from a serviceable train, probably 5 for enough to replace the original 1981 fleet.  This is because they need the Dubbo plant, planned, approved and eventually built before the can do much toward actually building the trains.  That's not allowing for any significant delays in the project - which of course never happen in NSW - or any stuffups in the specification.

I think the chances are very good the entire fleet will be grounded more or less permanently, or perhaps just the 1980s units (15 of the 19 power cars) before the new trains come online.  After a few years of bustitution, there won't be the demand for services there is now, so when the new fleet comes online, only 4 or so sets will be needed for a train each way each day.  

That will leave the bulk of the new fleet available for "new" services like direct Nowra to Sydney (for which 10 car NIFs would be overkill), a route for which a dual mode vehicle would be perfect.

Or, the entire new fleet project could be scaled back to "match demand" once cost over-runs or delays are encountered.  

Whatever happens, there is a lot of downside risk to passenger rail services, and not a lot of upside as the project - at best - is designed to emulate the 1990s "reformed" service.

While we all have our thoughts and speculations as to what is going to happen, and while I possibly only travel on the X a couple of times a year, I do see them regularly come into Maitland along with the NW XPL. The later seems to have had some increases in patronage but is often hampered by a lot of line shutdowns, over the past couple of months there has been 5 day 24 hour shut downs to Narrabri and on the Ulan line, with only commuter trains between Telerah & Wickham running in peak times, at these times they are disincentives for passengers and commuters alike.

The NCL services seem to have pretty good numbers on board, the bustitution of Grafton services and the buses not servicing guite a few stations, has some impact, and caused a bit of angst, but its an unknown as to how much, for many the likely faster trip without the calling in to the by stations may be an advantage.

Depending on how long it takes to get the replacement pins into the fleet of power cars means that basing anything on the future is not going to provide any real idea of patronage into the future for anyone, gunzels, governments or anyone, who knows how far the new trains will eventually go?

The one big thing though is the aspect of governments and the political whims of them, NSW is currently Coalition based on 4 year terms, QLD & Vic are currently Labour states but for how long? QLD politics is all but impossible to read as the current mob may not get another term but it has little affect on our train system outside of dumb times the XPT runs into Roma St. Victoria seems to be spending up well on PT, so Labour could stay in, I have no idea on that though.

The big fish in it all is and will be the voters, and more especially the rural voters and/or those who use PT for their visits and other businesses, there has been backlashes over the cutting of services in the past and its backfired on the government, the DUBBO venture while its a bit dumb in my thinking is a blatant example of the way that government spend up to boost their electoral prospects of re-election.  The Nationals lost out that way previously now they are back owing to the Dubbo centre.  I still believe Meeks Road will also be doing their far share of servicing though.

As for the Melbourne services, if they are cut, and turned back at Albury, seriously they may as well cut back to Wagga as who will be on the train between those two stations.  Also there will be political issues both sides of the border. The Vic government will cop a big backlash against them if allowed. Don't forget the X currently stops at Seymore IIRC, (excuse spelling if wrong)

While I doubt the new trains will see cuts to the interstate services, I would not be surprised if it does happen.

Article published talking about the XPT issue

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6422197/whats-happening-to-our-xpt-services/?cs=14231

It mentions that one XPT locomotive was withdrawn in January 2018 and has yet to re-enter service with the discovery of the cracks in centre pins. The locomotive in question is XP2003. It also later states (from a Sydney Trains spokesperson) that in total 4 locomotives have been removed from service. So it seems recently another 3 taken out of service, not sure which ones they are but XP2003 has been out of service now for over 18 months

This thread is going where I always knew it would: hook and pull.

Time to call in the locos. Does PacNat or anyone else have the spare capacity?

Gladys will not have CAFs available on time and too much bustitution will lead to loss of customers, current resources and operational experience. By the time they are built they won't be needed.

Drop an AN or EL loco and power van in the front of the XP sets and be done with it. The XP power cars are kaput. They are one trip away from a terrible accident. How can something so obvious, be so difficult?

This short term arrangement I am (and others here are proposing), is about survival of NSW regional rail services. The XPT is a dead horse that can no longer be flogged. It's over.  Bury it, and move on....

It is very clear that the XPs are to be repaired. All this talk of permanent grounding, total bustitution and hook and pull, is wild imagination, dreaming and foaming.

1. Has the track not been improved from its low base?

2. The NSW govt let the track infrastructure run down alot further and was improved by the Feds.

3. So what is actually wrong with the XPT? As the Fleet has plenty of pax cars, I'm guessing its the locos that have failed and is this bumps related?

4. Sleepers on CSO services are history, time to move on and accept this. The XPT takes around 200 people, yet around 10% can ride in a sleeper, hardly justification to retain.

5. The train may not money, but the fees paid for by Vic makes the service cost neutral south of the border.

6. Oh gee wow, they build a MTCE centre at Dubbo, what do you think will happen, Dubbo get 10 services a day? We all know Dubbo will likely get two services a day with the new trains, the justification for more isn't there especially with 2 x Bathurst Bullets. The govt is also keeping the XPL.END fleet for a few years yet, so there is no issue boosting a few commuter services and retaining if not increasing some of the regional services.

The RTT is routine serviced in Gracemere, 700km from Brisbane, yet Rocky only gets 1 service a day. Major work for both RTT and CTT is done 350km north of Brisbane.

1. no it is still pathetic.
2. The Feds have done nothing but make it worse. Sure the timber sleepers needed replacing but the base was not in a bad condition. The side insertion method used completely screwed up the main south where concrete replaced timber. NSW was going to replace all of those timber sleepers on the main and would have used the same machinery that was used in Sydney to rebuild the track. The ARTC just ripped the timber out and shoved concrete back in with no care for the base, drainage at all.
3. The 4 power cars as mentioned are out but the carriages are not in the best condition either. Also expect more power cars to fail very soon.
4. I agree but still expect a call for them from south of the border. If they can have a proper higher end class instead of just the same seat with a little bit more leg room (which still isn't enough for a 6'3" person like myself) then I'm all for getting rid of the sleeper.
5. No it doesn't because it doesn't cover the cost of maintenance on the fleet. It just covers the operations on the southern side of the border.
6. I agree the XPL's and Endeavours should definitely be retained to increase services but the answer is will they. My premise is that the NSW Government would like the ARTC to fix the track properly. If they do this then my theory of closing rail services is moot but if they don't then expect train services on poor pieces of track to go away.

1. no it is still pathetic.
2. The Feds have done nothing but make it worse. Sure the timber sleepers needed replacing but the base was not in a bad condition. The side insertion method used completely screwed up the main south where concrete replaced timber. NSW was going to replace all of those timber sleepers on the main and would have used the same machinery that was used in Sydney to rebuild the track. The ARTC just ripped the timber out and shoved concrete back in with no care for the base, drainage at all.
3. The 4 power cars as mentioned are out but the carriages are not in the best condition either. Also expect more power cars to fail very soon.
4. I agree but still expect a call for them from south of the border. If they can have a proper higher end class instead of just the same seat with a little bit more leg room (which still isn't enough for a 6'3" person like myself) then I'm all for getting rid of the sleeper.
5. No it doesn't because it doesn't cover the cost of maintenance on the fleet. It just covers the operations on the southern side of the border.
6. I agree the XPL's and Endeavours should definitely be retained to increase services but the answer is will they. My premise is that the NSW Government would like the ARTC to fix the track properly. If they do this then my theory of closing rail services is moot but if they don't then expect train services on poor pieces of track to go away.

1. It has improved and will continue to do so

2. The side insertion was done as a low cost option which was then hit with the worst rains in a 100 years, so yes it didn't work, that time!

NSW was going to do F_all and you know it. They were at least 10 years and up to 30 years behind in the capital spending on Main South and North Coast Line. Do we need to talk about a certain bridge????

3. The trains are pushing 40 years of some of the most intense operation exposed to rural train sets anywhere world wide. The XPT's average around 1500km/day, in comparison the Qld RTT is 1000km/day and the CTT is even lower. They are not failing just because of track condition which most of is driven by condition of NSW govt funded tracks.

4. I'm a leggy 6'4", I caught EC XPT once return to Brisbane, leg room was fine. I'm sure FC is better and I found the sleeper a tad cramped. The sleeper is history, too expensive, you can do alot more with FC if you have a go,

5. You have no idea what the Vic payments cover and don't pretend you do. You didn't even believe Qld funded the XPT until I sent you copied of the budget. I'm sure NSW ensures the Vic's fund  their share of the operation.

6. The new trains are a few years away, the Inland won't be far off completion at that time, more money will have been invested in the South Main.

As highlighted by you and I think others and govt documentation the END/XPL are going to be here for sometime yet. I highly doubt we will see the CAF's on every route the govt has previously indicated, ie all commuter and regional. My prediction
- Hunter remain Hunter and END (boosted numbers)
- South Coast, 2 sets
- Dubbo CAF and CAF being used for transfer to depo. Total 2 services a day
- Bathurst Bullet, END x 2
- Moss Vale, 100% END (boosted services)
- Can, 100% CAF
- Gouburn, 100% END
- XPT all, CAF
- Griffith and BH, CAF
- NW........

1. It hasn't and is still pathetic. Just ask any train driver or passenger who takes the XPT between Sydney and Melbourne.
2. Side insertion was a low cost option but it is also a completly incorrect method for installing concrete sleepers. If the ARTC had used new timber or recylcled plastic that would have been a viable option. Steel requires a yet different method of installation
3. Yes the XPT is old but the tracks have made them 80 years old instead only 40.
4. I will never ride in a First class seat over such a long journey ever again. It was agony.
5. $1.6 million in 2009 and $2.4m in 2012. That is probably $4 million in 2019. I wonder what would that $4 million cover? Absolutely that is going to cover all the diesel, staff, food in addition to maintenance.
6. Do you really think the ARTC can do anything competantly. They smeg up the SSFL and they have stuffed up the main south / vic ne that bad that not even 1% of freight moves between the state capitals by rail and that is down from 10% since they took over.
7.The Xplorers and Endeavours could continue and I have suggested as much but that doesn't mean that they will since this government likes to scrap old things. Just like old agreements.

The govt said it will build the NW railway line, it did, even though the Feds wouldn't assist.

Like any and all projects, once you get into the detail, costs often dictate a different outcome, hence trains have been built OS.

The Guards are a short term win to appease the union and a few others for now, but I agree the future is single staff trains and the driver is currently the one easier replaced with a computer and less rebuff from the general public, especially with the Metro setting the bench mark.

Repeat after me, "THE MEL XPT WILL NOT BE REPLACED WITH A BUS LONG-TERM"

Yes but at first they said they were going to build the North West Rail Link. The metro decision came later after the election. Single staff trains are never going to work in Sydney because of all the curved platforms and the significant gaps at certain stations. We don't have many level and straight platforms and PSD's will not work with our DD's. Sydney needs the Guard on the DD network for the safety of the trains and passengers.

The Metro is a completly different bag of fish. It was designed from the start without the need for driver or guard. Some platforms on the Bankstown line are going to be difficult and the track is going to need re aligning to remove the tilt that is at the stations with curved platforms.

My point wasn't that they haven't done what they have said it is in the suttlety of what they say and then what they finally do. Just the wording of the new fleet is most likely a pointer to what they are planning. This is something not many of you on here really understand about this current NSW Government.

RTT would say "THE MEL XPT WILL NOT BE REPLACED WITH A BUS LONG-TERM"
The NSW government will say "THE MEL XPT WILL NOT BE REPLACED WITH A BUS LONG-TERM"
Railpage advocates say "YEAH"
What the NSW Government actually means is "THE MEL XPT WILL BE CANCELLED PERMANENTLY INSTEAD" because the XPT power cars are all broken.

6. Do you really think the ARTC can do anything competantly. They smeg up the SSFL and they have stuffed up the main south / vic ne that bad that not even 1% of freight moves between the state capitals by rail and that is down from 10% since they took over.

So, particularly under a free enterprise Coalition government, the rail freight task between Melbourne and Sydney is negligible...bordering on nil and unlikely to change until there is a truck/car multi-fatal on the Hume and the inevitable wide reaching inquiry recommends more freight on rail and a lifting of the prejudice against rail freight...but that will be several years into the future

https://www.railexpress.com.au/rail-freight-on-deathbed-between-melbourne-and-sydney/

Therefore the heavy freight trains can no longer be an 'excuse' for the condition...whatever that is at this time of the track and in particular Victoria's NE.

This recent turn of events has probably brought about the funding of, at this stage 2 SG V'Locity's for the Albury line. Public Transport Victoria (PTV) and all the other players in this venture will be looking closely at the track as V'Locity's are far lighter and therefore less harsh on the track so theoretically the track should remain in good condition.

NSW should also be benefiting from this decline in the rail freight task and therefore should not be concerned about sending their Spanish XPT replacements south of the Murray.

Mike.

So, particularly under a free enterprise Coalition government, the rail freight task between Melbourne and Sydney is negligible...bordering on nil and unlikely to change until there is a truck/car multi-fatal on the Hume and the inevitable wide reaching inquiry recommends more freight on rail and a lifting of the prejudice against rail freight...but that will be several years into the future

https://www.railexpress.com.au/rail-freight-on-deathbed-between-melbourne-and-sydney/

Therefore the heavy freight trains can no longer be an 'excuse' for the condition...whatever that is at this time of the track and in particular Victoria's NE.

This recent turn of events has probably brought about the funding of, at this stage 2 SG V'Locity's for the Albury line. Public Transport Victoria (PTV) and all the other players in this venture will be looking closely at the track as V'Locity's are far lighter and therefore less harsh on the track so theoretically the track should remain in good condition.

NSW should also be benefiting from this decline in the rail freight task and therefore should not be concerned about sending their Spanish XPT replacements south of the Murray.

Mike.

The freight trains were never the reason why the track is in as poor a condition as it is. Reduced freight rail is indictaive of how bad the track is and the line won't magically repair itself just because there are no freight trains especially when you will still have steel and grain trains.

Freight trains run on the Sydney network and the track in Sydney is light years ahead of what the ARTC is in charge of. In fact Sydney also has to deal with coal trains on the main trunk routes that the main south and vic north east don't have to deal with and the track quality is not comparable.

I wonder what excuses will be put forward when the XPT replacement gets shaken to pieces …

I wonder what excuses will be put forward when the XPT replacement gets shaken to pieces …

Nearly forty years to come up with one.....

So, particularly under a free enterprise Coalition government, the rail freight task between Melbourne and Sydney is negligible...bordering on nil and unlikely to change until there is a truck/car multi-fatal on the Hume and the inevitable wide reaching inquiry recommends more freight on rail and a lifting of the prejudice against rail freight...but that will be several years into the future

https://www.railexpress.com.au/rail-freight-on-deathbed-between-melbourne-and-sydney/

Therefore the heavy freight trains can no longer be an 'excuse' for the condition...whatever that is at this time of the track and in particular Victoria's NE.

This recent turn of events has probably brought about the funding of, at this stage 2 SG V'Locity's for the Albury line. Public Transport Victoria (PTV) and all the other players in this venture will be looking closely at the track as V'Locity's are far lighter and therefore less harsh on the track so theoretically the track should remain in good condition.

NSW should also be benefiting from this decline in the rail freight task and therefore should not be concerned about sending their Spanish XPT replacements south of the Murray.

Mike.
The freight trains were never the reason why the track is in as poor a condition as it is. Reduced freight rail is indictaive of how bad the track is and the line won't magically repair itself just because there are no freight trains especially when you will still have steel and grain trains.

Freight trains run on the Sydney network and the track in Sydney is light years ahead of what the ARTC is in charge of. In fact Sydney also has to deal with coal trains on the main trunk routes that the main south and vic north east don't have to deal with and the track quality is not comparable.

I realise the western line towards Broken Hill is maintained, I think by John Holland and they weren't going to and have not taken on the main south/Vic NE and consequently we have the mess that we have.

Nevertheless the track cannot by virtue of less trains operating over it be as bad as it once was. Trains are no longer separating in transit etc.

The disaster on the Hume is only a matter of time and there will be a seismic shift to rail for a numbers of reasons and ARTC will probably find itself disbanded and John Holland or another operator will in all likelihood take over the maintenance with extra mega$ allocated to a proper upgrade.

This to me is so obviously the way things will play out in the medium term...say 5 to 8 or more yeArs.

Mike.

The tracks west of Lithgow to Parkes and Dubbo are maintained by John holland rail. The tracks to the north and south of parkes which will form the inland rail and to the west to broken hill are maintained by the ARTC.

The rail tracks won't magically get better just by not being used by trains Vinelander. The whole thing needs a complete replacement all the way down to the base. If this is not done then the track will still have the same issues it currently has. The ARTC has not done any of this anywhere on the main south / vic north east.

The new trains would probably handle the main south but if your spending a couple of billion on rolling stock would you want to take the chance of them failing because the ARTC don't know how to maintain track properly.

My cue to weigh in simstrain. Are you saying that the CAF won't be able to handle the tough Aussie conditions (whether they are in Vic, Qld or far western NSW? I thought you said it coulda, in bygone posts. If not, we shoulda ordered more XPLs, like I have said in bygone posts. We would not have been in this mess now.

My cue to weigh in simstrain. Are you saying that the CAF won't be able to handle the tough Aussie conditions (whether they are in Vic, Qld or far western NSW? I thought you said it coulda, in bygone posts. If not, we shoulda ordered more XPLs, like I have said in bygone posts. We would not have been in this mess now.

No I'm saying if you own trainsets that have been steadily battered in to submission in recent times because of the poor quality of track. That regardless of what these new trains can handle that the current government would want to protect them from suffering a similar fate.

My thoughts would be regardless of where these new trains are made. The time to order more XPL's was in 1995 and not 2019. That is old technology and these new trains have much more modern technology and probably better suspension then the XPT power cars have.

Remember that the XPT isn't the only thing that has been breaking recently. I believe there have been several big heavy loco's and many container wagons that have been broken by the vic ne and main south recently.

My cue to weigh in simstrain. Are you saying that the CAF won't be able to handle the tough Aussie conditions (whether they are in Vic, Qld or far western NSW? I thought you said it coulda, in bygone posts. If not, we shoulda ordered more XPLs, like I have said in bygone posts. We would not have been in this mess now.

No I'm saying if you own trainsets that have been steadily battered in to submission in recent times because of the poor quality of track. That regardless of what these new trains can handle that the current government would want to protect them from suffering a similar fate.

My thoughts would be regardless of where these new trains are made. The time to order more XPL's was in 1995 and not 2019. That is old technology and these new trains have much more modern technology and probably better suspension then the XPT power cars have.

Remember that the XPT isn't the only thing that has been breaking recently. I believe there have been several big heavy loco's and many container wagons that have been broken by the vic ne and main south recently.

The Colonies have never been known for their high quality track. If the Govt is worried about breaking them on the first mud hole south of Albury, they are doomed to fail. The XPT's have been bashing away for 35 years and only recently started to complain in a big way, maybe the govt should not put the tender sign up just yet.

This is why I think the govt should have bought Aussie made V/locities, at least they seem to be holding up ok over the bumps.

...on the main south / vic north east.

Albury, the only place in Australia where you can face south at the North Eastern Line and face north to the southern line.

Will the trains from the northern hemisphere know if its a mud hole or mud hump as they travel south into the northern line?

The Colonies have never been known for their high quality track. If the Govt is worried about breaking them on the first mud hole south of Albury, they are doomed to fail. The XPT's have been bashing away for 35 years and only recently started to complain in a big way, maybe the govt should not put the tender sign up just yet.

This is why I think the govt should have bought Aussie made V/locities, at least they seem to be holding up ok over the bumps.

Maybe as a Sydney resident I am spoiled by the track quality we have here. NSW was not known for poor track quality. Victoria has been known for poor track quality and it was often said that you can tell when you cross the border in to NSW because the ride got smoother. Since the ARTC took over that is no longer the case.

Nothing I said mentioned that the new trains couldn't handle the track. My point was why throw them in to the fire when you know how bad the track quality is. Vlocities are old technology and I am glad the government is buying this new fleet of trains since they will be much more economical and using the overhead will be much better for when the trains have to climb in and out of Sydney.

Nothing I said mentioned that the new trains couldn't handle the track. My point was why throw them in to the fire when you know how bad the track quality is. Vlocities are old technology and I am glad the government is buying this new fleet of trains since they will be much more economical and using the overhead will be much better for when the trains have to climb in and out of Sydney.

V'Locities are no more old technology than a non magnetic levitating train.

I think we all know the truth is we are getting CAFs because if we did something sensible and got SG V'locities they'd be built in Dandenong, not fitted out in Dubbo.

Maybe as a Sydney resident I am spoiled by the track quality we have here. NSW was not known for poor track quality. Victoria has been known for poor track quality and it was often said that you can tell when you cross the border in to NSW because the ride got smoother. Since the ARTC took over that is no longer the case.

Nothing I said mentioned that the new trains couldn't handle the track. My point was why throw them in to the fire when you know how bad the track quality is. Vlocities are old technology and I am glad the government is buying this new fleet of trains since they will be much more economical and using the overhead will be much better for when the trains have to climb in and out of Sydney.

Sydney of today, Sydney of the past wasn't so good. NSW of the past was a string of TSR's to the border. Which is why when the Feds took over the interstate, NSW had to hand over millions in back maintenance costs they had not done themselves. Menagle Bridge fiasco another one.

On the North coast line near the border, you had 1/3 or 1/4 sleepers concrete (side insertion), other old timber sleepers, like going across corrugations in the XPT.

Electric staff signally at the Qld border, XPT and every other train has to stop 6 times to get from Kyogle to Greenbank.

Manual signally on main south because the NSW govt didn't want to lay off the signallers.

Remember the XPT's used to go to Armidale/Tenterfield, Murwull'bah, Canberra, none of these lines were known for their track quality.

The XPT's are not failing because of the line in Vic, they are failing because they are 35 years old and worked hard since day one. Apart from Grafton they do all their runs with no more than 1h rest at the terminus, then service in Syd and ready for next run.

My understanding is the Vic NE line only the old BG line was done side insertion in a low cost rush job. The original SG was with ARTC for a number of years before.

V'Locities are no more old technology than a non magnetic levitating train.

I think we all know the truth is we are getting CAFs because if we did something sensible and got SG V'locities they'd be built in Dandenong, not fitted out in Dubbo.

They are old technology. We have been there and done that with the Xplorer and the vlocity is just a slightly newer version of that concept. It would be nice to have these built in Newcastle but these new trains will be a significant advancement over the vlocity in economy, acceleration, comfort and usability. Top speed can be up to 200km/h in service as well but there is nowhere it would be allowed to hit that speed in Australia.