Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Over the top of the existing station, go as high as necessary
Last I checked viaducts still needed footings. Where are they going to go?
potatoinmymouth
Just shuffle things around a bit. A little push here, a bit of a shove there, they'll fit...

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  tom9876543 Train Controller

As Lockspike said, build a viaduct all the way from Albion to Southern Cross station.
I think a rail viaduct to Southern Cross would be cheaper than any tunnel proposal.
Future proof it so viaduct can be easily expanded to 4 tracks in future.


Dunno where you’re going to put your viaduct at Footscray.
potatoinmymouth


I am not a civil engineer. I will guess the viaduct can be built with pylons every 60m - 70m, and they require 4m x 4m area.
I checked on google maps between Footscray station and Tottenham yards.
It will be relatively simple to build the pylons and viaduct.
It will require resumption of land, e.g. front yards or on street car parking. Each land owner loses a 4m x 4m square, but would obviously get compensated.


So a viaduct between Albion and Southern Cross Station is clearly the best option.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Albion to about Middle Footscray is probably doable as surface and elevated rail. The problem is once you get into Footscray proper, it becomes more challenging to fit the tracks alongside the existing alignment as they run in a cutting, at two separate grades with the SG diving under the BG. Because the railway is in a cuttiing, building elevated rail in the area would mean it would either be stacked on bridges, or cutting through land that can be developed. Footscray isn't some low lying outer suburb where it would just be a few houses, the area around the station is a fairly dense mid rise suburb.

Tunnelling for a short distance would lead to less disruption on the surface, and if you factor in less mandatory acquisitions, would probably be cheaper.

The railway descends slightly out of Footscray towards the Maribyrnong, so the tunnel could use this to rise back up and out and rejoin the rail reservation. One way of doing it could be to slew the current Sunbury Line to the North and put it on a new viaduct over the river that could go straight into the Metro Tunnel portal. The airport rail could then use the exisiting north viaduct and tracks past South Kensington to North Melbourne, though that creates more traffic going through there.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
And the pressure to build a tunnel and do the project right mounts: https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/regional-cities-demand-underground-tunnel-link-amid-airport-rail-link-decision
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@bevans Do it right. What a load of rot. Ballarat and Geelong councils have to amongst the most selfish. Geelong and Ballarat should not be provided with fast rail costing billions. Geelong journey times are comparable to that of Pakenham which is 25 kms nearer to Melbourne.

Improvements to Geelong and Ballarat should only come across via segregating RRL and providing an extra pair for Werribee and Melton corridors. Wyndhamvale, Tarneit and Melton should be of much higher priority than Geelong and Ballarat. The City of Wyndham has a bigger population than Geelong. Melton and Wyndham combined is 440,000 now set to grow to just over a million in 2051.

As for spend mega billions on a train to the airport. That is nonsense. $10 - $15 Billion for a train to the airport. Do it cheaper or just enhance the Bus Provision.

Michael
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

1. "Local councils" are not really experts in anything, I wouldn't care too much what they think.

2. Point one aside, I would err on the side of spending more for a better outcome.  So maybe a tunnel should be the option.

But overall, never forget:

3. Key rule of infrastructure - if you have designed something you know people won't like, design something even cheaper and nastier then release that to the public.  Then when people complain, release the original design (which was the real plan all along) and it'll look like you've listened.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
@bevans Do it right. What a load of rot. Ballarat and Geelong councils have to amongst the most selfish. Geelong and Ballarat should not be provided with fast rail costing billions. Geelong journey times are comparable to that of Pakenham which is 25 kms nearer to Melbourne.

Improvements to Geelong and Ballarat should only come across via segregating RRL and providing an extra pair for Werribee and Melton corridors. Wyndhamvale, Tarneit and Melton should be of much higher priority than Geelong and Ballarat. The City of Wyndham has a bigger population than Geelong. Melton and Wyndham combined is 440,000 now set to grow to just over a million in 2051.

As for spend mega billions on a train to the airport. That is nonsense. $10 - $15 Billion for a train to the airport. Do it cheaper or just enhance the Bus Provision.

Michael
mejhammers1
The Western Rail Plan and 'HighEr-SpEed Geelong trains' or whatever it's called could, probably will, tie into the MARL tunnel achieving exactly what you're saying.

And as someone who grew up near Berwick, I'll fully aware of the time from out that way to the city.  But eh, don't let stats get in the way: only ~7% of Casey-Cardinia residents work in central Melbourne with ~35% working in the local area and the next big work areas are Greater Dandenong (17%), Monash (8%), Kingston (5%) or Knox (4%).

See for yourself: https://economy.id.com.au/casey-cardinia/residents-place-of-work-industry

(7-car trains, maybe going to 10 one day, is going to be a huge capacity jump for Pakenham/Cranbourne - something that will probably be needed when the SRL opens up in... funny that, the south-east where many Casey-Cardinia people go to work [not to mention all the other LGAs along the way]).

Assuming Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo have the same frequencies after Melton and Wyndham Vale get electrified, you're looking at 8-12 TPH 'new' services in peak (the metros) plus 6TPH from the airport - that's enough frequency to warrant another track pair.  I agree, do MARL right from the beginning, with a tunnel.  More than happy to see the debate about public/private ownership though... but in terms of whether it's necessary, it will be in 10 years.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Speaking to a Tony Woodford-esque bureaucrat today, I got the impression that the government is almost at the point where it needs to wash its hands of the PPP as a funding model for any infrastructure projects. The assertion was made that IBAC is sniffing around and going over Citylink, Eastlink, PeninsulaLink (shadow tolling) and the various hospitals that were built through a PPP. As the MARL is potentially going to be funded via a PPP (AirLink or whatever it's called if they get the nod), this could have serious ramifications and potentially lead to not even being built.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Glad to hear IBAC is digging around.  People have had a gutful of PPP rorters and rentseekers...
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Glad to hear IBAC is digging around.  People have had a gutful of PPP rorters and rentseekers...
Carnot

If IBAC is sniffing, it's worse than rent seeking and the usual rorts.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Might end up a 30 minute trip every 20 minutes.  Is that such a problem if there's capacity in each train?

  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Might end up a 30 minute trip every 20 minutes.  Is that such a problem if there's capacity in each train?

Carnot

No real surprise there.  Andrews ultimately was going to call the Feds' bluff on that one.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Need to start looking at this in the context of the current political climate, there are a few things at play here.

1) The government's desire to deliver (under construction) by the next election so they can continue to grandstand about their infrastructure program.

2) The Auditor General and possibly IBAC digging around the Governments PPP and Market led proposals. The Westgate Tunnel Project was a market led proposal that did not 'require' any real scrutiny. The auditor general reported last year that the same benefits the WGT is delivering could have been done by delivering off ramps on the Westgate that Labor Government took to the election. Cost of the project was a mere $500 Million. A love job was required for Lendlease after the EWL debacle. All of the governments PPP have been slammed by the auditor general as lacking value for money for the tax payer.

3) For once it seem like the state government is looking at the bigger picture, if they were to go down the track (Pardon the pun) of PPP, the 'consortium' would hold control of one of the most critical transport infrastructure items in the states history. The government both state and federal want HSR to the regions, Metro service to Melton and WV and the Airport Link. Handing control of the most critical piece to a private consortium that could gouge the government and inhibit all of these plans is not something the state seems keen to do.

4) Utilising exisiting infrastructure, something that we are not very good at doing here. MM1 has capacity for 32 TPH. Currently 10 TPH pass through Footscray between 6 - 7, The busiest hour. Even if this was to increase you could still have 6 TPH to the Airport and 6TPH to Melton or WV. This, as much as we hate to admit it would suffice for the next decade. The Sunshine - City Tunnel could be built at a later date. Possibly even using the current TBM's from Metro 1 which would be available from 2022. We may not have our tunnel and HSR to the regions until the end of the next decade. However, the government of the day would be free to use the capacity of the new tunnel as it see's fit.

5) The state government has called the feds bluff, unless they are prepared to double their contribution a tunnel is never happening without the help of the private sector. The feds have learnt that the state is very good at getting their way. The feds also have an upcoming election, it will not look good if they are withholding money in the current economic climate. Andrews has with almost certainty won the next election at the last election unless through scandal the government implodes. The Feds are not so lucky and will be looking at trying to get the seats they lost in the last election back. With their current performance in NSW I can't imagine them being the blue ribbon state.

Now on a personal note, why can the state not borrow the entire sum (tunnel and all) and collect the airport fare (minus what the Airport clams as landslide access) and build it alone. With interest rates for borrowing so low and the economy in need of major spending why is there even a need to involve the private sector?

Lockie
  Adogs Chief Train Controller


Now on a personal note, why can the state not borrow the entire sum (tunnel and all) and collect the airport fare (minus what the Airport clams as landslide access) and build it alone. With interest rates for borrowing so low and the economy in need of major spending why is there even a need to involve the private sector?

Lockie
Lockie91

They absolutely *could* borrow the money if they wanted.  However, they also know that they need to be careful about that - they've borrowed heavily already.

Economists will tell you that debt isn't necessarily a bad thing if you've invested it into infrastructure (up to a point).  This is the numbers game they play in China - if a city is struggling for economic growth, you build a metro system or some other project, not necessarily because you need it, but because of the economic stimulus created by its construction.  Hence Victoria is currently about the only Australian state besides Tasmania where the economy is actually growing at a decent rate.

But Herald Sun readers don't really understand anything regarding the above.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

I don't know how much credibility I'd give this study, but it seems to reflect common sense:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/skip-all-stations-industry-survey-backs-direct-link-to-airport-20191217-p53kw1.html
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

I don't know how much credibility I'd give this study, but it seems to reflect common sense:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/skip-all-stations-industry-survey-backs-direct-link-to-airport-20191217-p53kw1.html
chomper

That's not a study, it's an opinion poll.  Obviously if you ask random members of the public if they want an express link, they'll all say yes - that has nothing to do with whether it's the best option, financially or in engineering-wise.  Since Rinehart bought Fairfax, the Age is getting pretty deep into just being another newsletter for the federal Libs.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I don't know how much credibility I'd give this study, but it seems to reflect common sense:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/skip-all-stations-industry-survey-backs-direct-link-to-airport-20191217-p53kw1.html

That's not a study, it's an opinion poll.  Obviously if you ask random members of the public if they want an express link, they'll all say yes - that has nothing to do with whether it's the best option, financially or in engineering-wise.  Since Rinehart bought Fairfax, the Age is getting pretty deep into just being another newsletter for the federal Libs.
Adogs
Yes, it's called "push-polling".  

At a minimum, airport trains should stop at Sunshine on their way to Tullamarine Airport.  And some should stop at Footscray too.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Even an airport that has sat idle for nine years has a train station:

https://www.traveller.com.au/berlins-infamous-brandenburg-airport-finally-gets-an-opening-date-h1kgsp
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Even an airport that has sat idle for nine years has a train station:

https://www.traveller.com.au/berlins-infamous-brandenburg-airport-finally-gets-an-opening-date-h1kgsp
chomper
Gee, so many parallels with some of the recent goings on in Victoria.  Such as:

- "90 kilometres of cables were incorrectly installed"
- "DW claims the airport's planner-in-chief was "not an engineer but an imposter"
- "a botched privatisation attempt"
- "Politicians with limited project management experience were running the supervisory board"
-  "€7.5 billion over budget."
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Even an airport that has sat idle for nine years has a train station:

https://www.traveller.com.au/berlins-infamous-brandenburg-airport-finally-gets-an-opening-date-h1kgsp
Gee, so many parallels with some of the recent goings on in Victoria.  Such as:

- "90 kilometres of cables were incorrectly installed"
- "DW claims the airport's planner-in-chief was "not an engineer but an imposter"
- "a botched privatisation attempt"
- "Politicians with limited project management experience were running the supervisory board"
-  "€7.5 billion over budget."
Carnot

There weren't many places I thought were immune to the usual bureaucratic smeg, I thought clinical and efficient Germany was one such place, but alas I have been proven wrong. Ineptitude and corruption doesn't discriminate...
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Even an airport that has sat idle for nine years has a train station:

https://www.traveller.com.au/berlins-infamous-brandenburg-airport-finally-gets-an-opening-date-h1kgsp
Gee, so many parallels with some of the recent goings on in Victoria.  Such as:

- "90 kilometres of cables were incorrectly installed"
- "DW claims the airport's planner-in-chief was "not an engineer but an imposter"
- "a botched privatisation attempt"
- "Politicians with limited project management experience were running the supervisory board"
-  "€7.5 billion over budget."

There weren't many places I thought were immune to the usual bureaucratic smeg, I thought clinical and efficient Germany was one such place, but alas I have been proven wrong. Ineptitude and corruption doesn't discriminate...
chomper

As a former (albeit short-term) resident of Berlin back in the early 2000s, I can tell you that this is somewhat typical of mega-projects in Germany in the last few decades.

For another example, see Stuttgart 21.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/tunnel-link-mulled-for-geelong-fast-trains
A possible leak from the MARL business case for “alternative options” Can’t see it happening. Half via Metro 2, Half via Sunshine. Will be a dog’s breakfast
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I can barely make head nor tail of that article.  So high speed Geetroit trains stuck behind Metro services?  Seriously?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Other thoughts - would Geelong high speed involve 25kv AC on SG line (duplicated), all the way to Newport, then 1500V DC on dual gauge inside tunnel to City?
  chomper Junior Train Controller

I can barely make head nor tail of that article.  So high speed Geetroit trains stuck behind Metro services?  Seriously?
Carnot

Unless this includes electrification to Gtroit...

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