Rant - Fuel Prices!

 
  Big J Deputy Commissioner

Location: In Paradise


EDIT:
The annual family holiday issue seems to be one of the major sticking points. First up I'd say almost no one does a 3000km driving family holiday unless you are on a CAPE trip or similar.


RTT_Rules
Umm I am driving to Armidale in NSW from Mackay Qld and return. You are welcome to look up google maps.

Many people in the regions do this. While I agree that the regions are the minority and the majority are urban. But even urbanites like to drive out to see family.

I guess the not owning a car model will be the way forward, but I can't see that really being entrenched until around 2030. At the moment people love the option of convenience, even if they don't use. For example this is why many people have Prados. Because one day they think they will really go for a camping trip, even though in reality they never do. It is a choice.

So I am still of the view diesels will still sell strongly for another 5 years, hence Hilux and Ranger dominating the Australian market. There is no rush to change our emission laws on vehicles, not while the current government is in place.

Then fuel/hybrid will dominate. Eg the recent Hilux announcement and the RAV4 hybrid going gang busters.

Then EV as the range/value proposition will be palatable. That will be around 10 years.

I look forward to EV. But it wont be the dominate market till then. They will firstly erode the upper end vehicle market that stay on tarmac.

Your point of the EV F150 is great, but F150 are not bought by families that spend $50k on a ute or a SUV. It is out of reach. They will attract that stupid luxury car tax and will put them over $100k. ABS holders will buy them, but the majority won't.

I don't disagree EVs will dominate, but I put money it will be the late 2020s/ early 2030s for Australia, unless the government does a Norway. I doubt the current Government will do anything of the sort as the Surplus must be protected at any cost and they do not believe that currently there is an issue with air pollution that warrants intervention to change our economy.

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  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

It seems that for years now the price of petrol goes up every holiday period, Easter is renown for the price to go up as is Christmas and I would say most long weekends or school holiday periods it goes up in price as well. A lot of people can see this is so, but the fuel companies deny it, just coincidence they say, they have been saying that for more than 30 years now and most with any brains cry BS on it.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Yeah and Woolies and Coles fluctuate the price of kabana, cheese and crackers too, I just buy when they’re discounted, fuel is no different.

It’s a free market enterprise and those retailing it can set the price as they wish, and I am glad they can, because at least it does go cheap.

As I mentioned before, you’re more than welcome to come to Poland where the price has sat at AUD1.91 +/- 0.0075 (not a typo) for about three years...
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Yeah and Woolies and Coles fluctuate the price of kabana, cheese and crackers too, I just buy when they’re discounted, fuel is no different.
Aaron
Umm, my opening post referred to a 400+km trip in a day. I had to fill up to get home, I couldn't wait for a discount. As it turned out I was able to fill up at the cheapest place I saw, but I had no idea that would be the case in advance.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
For example, when was the lat time any of us here went on a >1000km road trip? If you have two cars at home, do both need this capability? For my parents the answer is no. My my family the answer is no.
RTT_Rules

I do regularly. I like for both of our cars to be available for any trip as much as possible.

The annual family holiday issue seems to be one of the major sticking points. First up I'd say almost no one does a 3000km driving family holiday unless you are on a CAPE trip or similar.
RTT_Rules

I have done 8000km* and 10000km† road trip holidays in Australia and ~5000km road trip holidays in the UK. And no, I haven't been to the Cape! Likely many, many others >1000km. Hey, I like driving.

* Dalby - Cunnamulla - Yowah - Cunnamulla - Charleville - Barcaldine - Longreach - Mt Isa - Cloncurry - Karumba - Atherton - Cooktown - Cairns - Townsville - Rockhampton - Bundaberg - Dalby.

† Dalby - Gilgandra - Albury - Melbourne, then ~3500km in Tasmania, then Melbourne - Warrnambool - Mt Gambier - Port Elliot - Adelaide - Mildura -Parkes - Armidale - Dalby
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
My last post was in response to David Peters, not yourself Graham.

I have done 6x 1000km trips this year ‘at home’, 10 in fact if you count my trips by road not in Australia.

My ‘family’ in Queensland drove to Adelaide the long way a couple of months ago. Sunshine Coast to Sydney, then Melbourne, and then to Adelaide via the great ocean road, home via Alice Springs - an EV would have been nice a quick at that.

They’ve also done Adelaide to Alice Springs and Sunshine Coast to Darwin round trips several times.

Most people’s driving, including mine is well within the range of an EV, but as soon as you want to venture even slightly beyond that range the vehicle is a waste of time. As I have posted previously, if you want to talk about the convenience of fast chargers then your range is really only 60%, so they get even worse.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yeah and Woolies and Coles fluctuate the price of kabana, cheese and crackers too, I just buy when they’re discounted, fuel is no different.
Umm, my opening post referred to a 400+km trip in a day. I had to fill up to get home, I couldn't wait for a discount. As it turned out I was able to fill up at the cheapest place I saw, but I had no idea that would be the case in advance.
Graham4405
Suggest rather than guessing get one of the various fuel apps. WAZE is good for traffic and fuel price as when people fill up they can enter the latest price. UAE fuel prices are fixed for the calendar month based on the last months oil price so I'm not an expert at it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


Umm I am driving to Armidale in NSW from Mackay Qld and return. You are welcome to look up google maps.

Many people in the regions do this. While I agree that the regions are the minority and the majority are urban. But even urbanites like to drive out to see family.

I guess the not owning a car model will be the way forward, but I can't see that really being entrenched until around 2030. At the moment people love the option of convenience, even if they don't use. For example this is why many people have Prados. Because one day they think they will really go for a camping trip, even though in reality they never do. It is a choice.

So I am still of the view diesels will still sell strongly for another 5 years, hence Hilux and Ranger dominating the Australian market. There is no rush to change our emission laws on vehicles, not while the current government is in place.

Then fuel/hybrid will dominate. Eg the recent Hilux announcement and the RAV4 hybrid going gang busters.

Then EV as the range/value proposition will be palatable. That will be around 10 years.

I look forward to EV. But it wont be the dominate market till then. They will firstly erode the upper end vehicle market that stay on tarmac.

Your point of the EV F150 is great, but F150 are not bought by families that spend $50k on a ute or a SUV. It is out of reach. They will attract that stupid luxury car tax and will put them over $100k. ABS holders will buy them, but the majority won't.

I don't disagree EVs will dominate, but I put money it will be the late 2020s/ early 2030s for Australia, unless the government does a Norway. I doubt the current Government will do anything of the sort as the Surplus must be protected at any cost and they do not believe that currently there is an issue with air pollution that warrants intervention to change our economy.
Big J
Diesel is the dead man walking, don't expect this to be an option post 2025 for most cars and many 4x4's and it won't be the Australian govt dictating this. The recent fiasco's with both Toyota and VW show the challenges facing the diesel engine manufacturers. Look back over the last 10-15 years a number of diesel engines have disappeared due to emission issues and if I recall the Ranger 3.2 in my car is one of the next, ironically being replaced by the VW V6. I was in China last year, nearly all heavy trucks were running on LNG, so China is very much on the way of weening itself off diesel.

I would have thought Hybrid's would be doing much better globally, yet the % of HEV in the global market appears to have plateaued around 2.5% or what ever the number for some time. The growth is very much in EV. I suspect as distance range and model range have improved, many potential HEV buyers have gone full EV. Australia (again) was drip fed HEV models for a number of years and you have only got a taste of what Toyota has been offering others for some years. In Dubai taxi's were being converted to HEV a few years back, but the luxury Lexus taxi's have been slowly replaced by Model X and S taxi's. Again in China last year, Tianjuan I think, nearly all taxi's were basically an electric EV SUV, local brand. Most Chinese motor bikes are EV, we visited 6 cities, it was consistent. Charging stations were under fly-overs next to toilets and food stalls.

F150 class is on the rise in Oz, I noticed this last year the amount of averts surprised me. In the USA the base model to mid model market is US$ 29k to US$ 45k, so shouldn't be in luxury market unless you want the bigger models such as Raptor. I believe the EV's have a higher threshold to the luxury tax in Oz.

I would be the first to protest against a subsidy for EV's, there is no need for it and yo are opening a can of worms as when do you stop?

EV's will take their own place in the market with expansion of model diversity, range, charging stations and loss of range anxiety . The UAE has no subsidy's or incentive's for EV's, yet the things are growing rapidly in popularity. We had heard the dealers were avoiding bring them in due to the reduced revenues from maintenance contracts, hence most are Telsa's with some Bolt's. However it would appear a quiet word by the govt has resolved this and there a number of models coming next year. The UAE govt has very ambitious EV  as well as Autonomous vehicle targets by 2030 as part of their RE target strategy.

I've lived in regional Australia for most of my Adult life, I can say with full confidence driving 3000km return trips is not that common, although I know some that do it. We did it on average about once in every 3-4 years. Mackay to Armidale is 14+ hours, if there was an overnight stop you'd have only need for a martial mid day charge, easily done having a meal/pee break. If done in a single day trip, you need 2 recharges to 80% or 3 partial recharges. Again easily sloted into meal breaks and other without adding much extra time if any.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
For example, when was the lat time any of us here went on a >1000km road trip? If you have two cars at home, do both need this capability? For my parents the answer is no. My my family the answer is no.

I do regularly. I like for both of our cars to be available for any trip as much as possible.

The annual family holiday issue seems to be one of the major sticking points. First up I'd say almost no one does a 3000km driving family holiday unless you are on a CAPE trip or similar.

I have done 8000km* and 10000km† road trip holidays in Australia and ~5000km road trip holidays in the UK. And no, I haven't been to the Cape! Likely many, many others >1000km. Hey, I like driving.

* Dalby - Cunnamulla - Yowah - Cunnamulla - Charleville - Barcaldine - Longreach - Mt Isa - Cloncurry - Karumba - Atherton - Cooktown - Cairns - Townsville - Rockhampton - Bundaberg - Dalby.

† Dalby - Gilgandra - Albury - Melbourne, then ~3500km in Tasmania, then Melbourne - Warrnambool - Mt Gambier - Port Elliot - Adelaide - Mildura -Parkes - Armidale - Dalby
Graham4405

Each to their own.
We have always had the 4x4 of sorts and wife large sedan, usually a Fairmont plus for a while a small old Suzuki I drove to work. Back then the wife's car did 100% of the long haul driving until I upgraded the x4 to something half decent. If we moved back tomorrow we'd have a modern dual cab which would be our longhaul everything car plus something for more local. Wife wants this to be an EV if possible.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My last post was in response to David Peters, not yourself Graham.

I have done 6x 1000km trips this year ‘at home’, 10 in fact if you count my trips by road not in Australia.

My ‘family’ in Queensland drove to Adelaide the long way a couple of months ago. Sunshine Coast to Sydney, then Melbourne, and then to Adelaide via the great ocean road, home via Alice Springs - an EV would have been nice a quick at that.

They’ve also done Adelaide to Alice Springs and Sunshine Coast to Darwin round trips several times.

Most people’s driving, including mine is well within the range of an EV, but as soon as you want to venture even slightly beyond that range the vehicle is a waste of time. As I have posted previously, if you want to talk about the convenience of fast chargers then your range is really only 60%, so they get even worse.
Aaron
Last time you posted was bragging on a high speed F1 type run across western Europe without a stop for a pee unless the Mrs needed it. Not everyone does this, infact few do this, rather few actually do this and yes I've driven a similar route in Europe. I suspect equally as many will drive Adelaide to Sunny Coast via Darwin/AS.

Why is charging your car on the highway a waste of time, or are you on F1 course again? 60% would also be conservative low. Again is a 15-20min stop every 3h really that painful? So for that say twice a year trip where you need to recharge say 2 times each way assuming full charge from the start, you have added  1h or so to the round trip.

Cars fuel range may have increased over the last 2 decades to 700 - 800 km, but my bladder hasn't and certainly the bladders of my kids. 3h in the chair and I want out anyway to walk around, bladder or not.

Now think the rest of your real life, every morning your car is fully charged, so you are saving on 5-10min a week at the petrol station yes, so easily and conveniently overlooked when focusing on that annual trip to grandmas and if it can be done in less time than last year.

Car servicing, EV's services are simpler, cheaper, faster and less likely to breakdown, another convenient oversight.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place

Why is charging your car on the highway a waste of time, or are you on F1 course again? 60% would also be conservative low. Again is a 15-20min stop every 3h really that painful? So for that say twice a year trip where you need to recharge say 2 times each way assuming full charge from the start, you have added  1h or so to the round trip.
That twice a year trip is probably going to be undertaken in peak holiday periods and the stop is not going to be 15-20 minutes.

At times like that I have regularly seen queues at service centres that go out of the bowser area and onto the road and that is to get to a point where you can spend 3-4 minutes pouring 40-50 litres of fuel into your car, pay for it, and be on the way, even if that means parking somewhere to have a walk around and a comfort stop.

Can you imagine the wait times if each vehicle took 15 minutes to "refuel"?  

EVs have their place but anything which requires a recharge mid journey is not it.  That situation will remain until you can take your EV into a service centre, park it next to the equivalent of a bowser,  and recharge it in similar time to pumping that 40-50 litres of fuel into your car at present.  Will that come? Never say never but until it does forget it.

The NRMA in NSW published an article in the Open Road magazine some time ago about taking a Nissan Leaf for a relatively short road trip which all but completely glossed over the range / recharge issues and which for me pretty much confirmed just how irrelevant the NRMA had become.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

EVs have their place but anything which requires a recharge mid journey is not it.  That situation will remain until you can take your EV into a service centre, park it next to the equivalent of a bowser,  and recharge it in similar time to pumping that 40-50 litres of fuel into your car at present.  Will that come? Never say never but until it does forget it.
7334
Swappable battery packs would be the way to do that.

It would have to be an automated process using some sort of grapple arm to remove the empty battery pack and insert a charged one, but should be much faster than a 40L fill.

The problem with this is that electric vehicle development is concentrated in places where long distance driving is not part of the normal use case. There's no incentive for companies like BMW or Renault-Nissan or Volkswagen-Audi Group to develop long-distance solutions other than range extender engines.
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

Electric rechargeable vehicles are great when you have power to actually charge them though what use is a charging station if the whole state electricity goes down and you cannot recharge you vehicle. Don't say it cannot happen because it has and most probably might do it again some day as well. South Australia has done it and it could possibly happen elsewhere as well.

Also what use is having electric vehicles on a farm if during a bush fire if they cut the power, you are stranded if you only have an electric car that does not have enough charge to get you far. You could go out of the frying pan into the fire literally in that case.

Aaron a lot of people realise this that prices go up during holiday periods it has happened ever since I was a teenager and am now over 60.  No one minds them making a profit selling petrol, but why slug extra during those periods at all, oh yes they want to make greater profits from a captive audience almost. Why cannot normal price continue through holiday periods as you might just get a few more to travel by road if you keep normal price and thus make a profit just the same.

All it comes down to is simple greed any way you look at it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
That twice a year trip is probably going to be undertaken in peak holiday periods and the stop is not going to be 15-20 minutes.

At times like that I have regularly seen queues at service centres that go out of the bowser area and onto the road and that is to get to a point where you can spend 3-4 minutes pouring 40-50 litres of fuel into your car, pay for it, and be on the way, even if that means parking somewhere to have a walk around and a comfort stop.

Can you imagine the wait times if each vehicle took 15 minutes to "refuel"?  

EVs have their place but anything which requires a recharge mid journey is not it.  That situation will remain until you can take your EV into a service centre, park it next to the equivalent of a bowser,  and recharge it in similar time to pumping that 40-50 litres of fuel into your car at present.  Will that come? Never say never but until it does forget it.

The NRMA in NSW published an article in the Open Road magazine some time ago about taking a Nissan Leaf for a relatively short road trip which all but completely glossed over the range / recharge issues and which for me pretty much confirmed just how irrelevant the NRMA had become.
7334
The only the place I've seen a queue for fuel in the last 20 years in 25 countries is UAE, it may happen in Oz at times but its hardly the norm. BTW, every trip back to Oz usually involves a 1000km road trip between two of the three state east coast capitals or WA.

However there are places in the US that experience crowding at charging stations and usually those locations are resolved within a few months with new charging stations. Remember the cost of installing a fast charger is around $10-25k, a destination charger is $1500 - $5000 and can be done by anyone with a half decent grid connection or even on a genset if nothing else in middle of no where. Petrol station pumps are significantly more in cost.

So I think your comment on mid-journey recharge is probably a bit skewed.

The problem with recharging any EV regardless of the battery technology in 5min is the cable size from the charging station to the car. Even with a 1000V DC feed, pumping in 150 kW in 5-10min requires a 1.5MW power supply and cables. Wireless charging may be an option to resolve this in the future, but there will be questions on EM radiation.

So longer recharge times compared to petrol/diesel will more than likely be part and parcel of an EV world and considering your not actually standing there with a pump nozzel in your hand then its FAR less likely to be an issue as you are not pre-occupied doing just one task, ie you can clean you windows, toilet, feed, take the kids to play, explore some quirky attraction, be on your phone, argue with the Mrs...... Again if your car is full of charge at the start of every day and you can count on less than one hand, more likely thumbs the number of days a year you actually have to recharge during the day, then I suspect the whole process will quietly slip into society relatively painlessly.

The early Leaf's was never intended for long trips and it would be akin to driving a SMART car interstate, you can do it, but would you really want too? The early Leaf's also looked more like washing machines and despite all the negatives Nissan still sold around 0.4 million of the bloody things globally. The Leaf-e+ is however a different beast with a range of +350km and a 150kW motor.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
EVs have their place but anything which requires a recharge mid journey is not it.  That situation will remain until you can take your EV into a service centre, park it next to the equivalent of a bowser,  and recharge it in similar time to pumping that 40-50 litres of fuel into your car at present.  Will that come? Never say never but until it does forget it.
Swappable battery packs would be the way to do that.

It would have to be an automated process using some sort of grapple arm to remove the empty battery pack and insert a charged one, but should be much faster than a 40L fill.

The problem with this is that electric vehicle development is concentrated in places where long distance driving is not part of the normal use case. There's no incentive for companies like BMW or Renault-Nissan or Volkswagen-Audi Group to develop long-distance solutions other than range extender engines.
justapassenger
Swapable batteries for cars has come and gone, they are simply too heavy and integrated into the car, remember they have a cooling system and other bits. It is however used in motor bikes in some countries.

I would disagree with the last statement. Where is VW-Audi and others biggest or 2nd market? Nth America! Also the EU is not unfamiliar with long distance driving. They still have their skiing holidays in another country, summer on the Med, relatives, etc etc. For many they hire cars for the trip if their normal car is a 2- door micro. China is also increasingly into long distance driving.

The issue for long haul EV is space, weight and cost. They could sell a Rav 4 tomorrow that has a range of 1000km, but you wouldn't buy it as it would weigh around 2.2t and cost double the normal price, all for that annual or bi-annual road trip. Most people and likely all of us would forego the etc 500-600km and accept that 1-2 yr road trip will involve a recharge stop or 3.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Electric rechargeable vehicles are great when you have power to actually charge them though what use is a charging station if the whole state electricity goes down and you cannot recharge you vehicle. Don't say it cannot happen because it has and most probably might do it again some day as well. South Australia has done it and it could possibly happen elsewhere as well.

Also what use is having electric vehicles on a farm if during a bush fire if they cut the power, you are stranded if you only have an electric car that does not have enough charge to get you far. You could go out of the frying pan into the fire literally in that case.

Aaron a lot of people realise this that prices go up during holiday periods it has happened ever since I was a teenager and am now over 60.  No one minds them making a profit selling petrol, but why slug extra during those periods at all, oh yes they want to make greater profits from a captive audience almost. Why cannot normal price continue through holiday periods as you might just get a few more to travel by road if you keep normal price and thus make a profit just the same.

All it comes down to is simple greed any way you look at it.
DJPeters
A few extremes there.

Assumption you need to recharge during a very rare black out event. If your car was low on petrol and the petrol station has no power you will not be any better off either.

Ok, so you are in a bush fire with a flat battery. Normal practice if you own an EV is to leave it on charge over night so at the start of every day you have a fully charged car. If the fire is so close, why haven't you left? If your battery was flat, yes, you cannot drive, but likewise if your fuel tank is empty what will you do? 1L of petrol will likely get you out of danger before running out of juice, likewise a few kW in your battery will do the same.

The higher fuel cost during peak periods pays for the discounts at other times of the year. If you don't like it, buy petrol in advance and store it.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
RTT, 60% of range for using fast charge is not a conservative low estimate of range, it is the absolute maximum range for a vehicle using fast charge. Hell, if you have ever read the manual on an EV, and Tesla in particular are quite explicit on it, the recommended general day to day range is actually only 60% of what is published. Forget fast charging, fast charging just makes the 60% figure absolutely limiting.

I was not on an F1 speed run through Europe, I was doing an express drive to maximise the time at the destination. When you have a booking at an Austrian resort and skiing to do sitting around at a stinky service station in central Germany off the autobahn with a strange looking dude ‘singing’ german crunk outside the door is a remarkably boring place to be.

Yes, the only stop was for the wife’s toilet break, but that was quicker than charging. An EV could not have done that journey (or the journey we did a few days ago into Czech Republic and then to Slovakia) in anything even approaching the time we did it in the diesel Audi.

Again, a Czech resort in the mountains with Czech beers and skiing on the Polish/Czech/Slovak border or sitting about with an underwhelming coffee, overcooked roadhouse food or (worse) prepackaged sandwich and slice of stale cake while waiting for a charge? I’ll take a diesel and non stop any day of the millennium.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
That twice a year trip is probably going to be undertaken in peak holiday periods and the stop is not going to be 15-20 minutes.

At times like that I have regularly seen queues at service centres that go out of the bowser area and onto the road and that is to get to a point where you can spend 3-4 minutes pouring 40-50 litres of fuel into your car, pay for it, and be on the way, even if that means parking somewhere to have a walk around and a comfort stop.

Can you imagine the wait times if each vehicle took 15 minutes to "refuel"?  

EVs have their place but anything which requires a recharge mid journey is not it.  That situation will remain until you can take your EV into a service centre, park it next to the equivalent of a bowser,  and recharge it in similar time to pumping that 40-50 litres of fuel into your car at present.  Will that come? Never say never but until it does forget it.

The NRMA in NSW published an article in the Open Road magazine some time ago about taking a Nissan Leaf for a relatively short road trip which all but completely glossed over the range / recharge issues and which for me pretty much confirmed just how irrelevant the NRMA had become.
The only the place I've seen a queue for fuel in the last 20 years in 25 countries is UAE, it may happen in Oz at times but its hardly the norm. BTW, every trip back to Oz usually involves a 1000km road trip between two of the three state east coast capitals or WA.

However there are places in the US that experience crowding at charging stations and usually those locations are resolved within a few months with new charging stations. Remember the cost of installing a fast charger is around $10-25k, a destination charger is $1500 - $5000 and can be done by anyone with a half decent grid connection or even on a genset if nothing else in middle of no where. Petrol station pumps are significantly more in cost.

So I think your comment on mid-journey recharge is probably a bit skewed.

The problem with recharging any EV regardless of the battery technology in 5min is the cable size from the charging station to the car. Even with a 1000V DC feed, pumping in 150 kW in 5-10min requires a 1.5MW power supply and cables. Wireless charging may be an option to resolve this in the future, but there will be questions on EM radiation.

So longer recharge times compared to petrol/diesel will more than likely be part and parcel of an EV world and considering your not actually standing there with a pump nozzel in your hand then its FAR less likely to be an issue as you are not pre-occupied doing just one task, ie you can clean you windows, toilet, feed, take the kids to play, explore some quirky attraction, be on your phone, argue with the Mrs...... Again if your car is full of charge at the start of every day and you can count on less than one hand, more likely thumbs the number of days a year you actually have to recharge during the day, then I suspect the whole process will quietly slip into society relatively painlessly.

The early Leaf's was never intended for long trips and it would be akin to driving a SMART car interstate, you can do it, but would you really want too? The early Leaf's also looked more like washing machines and despite all the negatives Nissan still sold around 0.4 million of the bloody things globally. The Leaf-e+ is however a different beast with a range of +350km and a 150kW motor.
RTT_Rules
My comment about mid journey recharge has more to it than the actual time it takes to recharge YOUR vehicle.  A 15 -20 minute stop assumes that you can drive straight to a charge point, hook up, and be recharged and on your way 15 or so minutes later.

I am thinking of the situation particularly at peak holiday periods when a lot of people who do not normally drive any serious distance descend on the highways and there is a greater demand for "refueling" whatever that might involve.  If you use the NSW north coast as an example, and it is the one I am most familiar with, once you reach the end of the freeway at Beresfield you would be approaching the need to recharge an EV and even if not then you would probably need to do so within the next 100kms or so.  (In my case Beresfield is around 230 kms from home just south of Sydney)  In that situation you are not really very likely to drive up to a charge point and hook up unless there are a very large number of them available.  If there is a queue then every vehicle in that queue represents a 15 - 20 minute wait to start YOUR recharge.  Compare that to a 3 - 4 minute wait to get to a bowser and I do not think it is going to slip painlessly into society.  

And you are going to have to go through the same exercise less than 3 hours or so later.

I acknowledge that that is a worst case scenario and that at other times the problem would be much reduced but to me it still suggests that with their current state of development an EV is unsuitable for journeys longer than their range from a full starting charge.

Sorry RTT_Rules, I generally agree with what you write, but not this time.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Suggest rather than guessing get one of the various fuel apps.
RTT_Rules
I have the RACQ one, but the reality is most of my fillups are in Dalby where it is easy to know where the cheapest fuel is, usually EG Fuelco (Woolworths) or Freedom Fuels. My rant is really about the extreme difference in price between Brisbane and Toowoomba (~$0.43/l) which is absolutely ridiculous and should not happen. If I couldn't have made it to Toowoomba to fill up my ~50l could have potentially cost me an extra ~$20! That's just nonsense.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Suggest rather than guessing get one of the various fuel apps.
RTT_Rules
I have the RACQ one, but the reality is most of my fillups are in Dalby where it is easy to know where the cheapest fuel is, usually EG Fuelco (Woolworths) or Freedom Fuels. My rant is really about the extreme difference in price between Brisbane and Toowoomba (~$0.43/l) which is absolutely ridiculous and should not happen. If I couldn't have made it to Toowoomba to fill up my ~50l could have potentially cost me an extra ~$20! That's just nonsense.
"Graham4405"


True,
Question, is the 43c difference because someone is ultra discounting or someone is charging top price.

These days with most newer cars capable of 700km or more to a tank and the numerous Ap's, I'm surprised the variations are still as much as they are as easy to plan away from such higer prices including rural areas. You are basically relying on local traffic to get away with higher prices.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT, 60% of range for using fast charge is not a conservative low estimate of range, it is the absolute maximum range for a vehicle using fast charge. Hell, if you have ever read the manual on an EV, and Tesla in particular are quite explicit on it, the recommended general day to day range is actually only 60% of what is published. Forget fast charging, fast charging just makes the 60% figure absolutely limiting.

I was not on an F1 speed run through Europe, I was doing an express drive to maximise the time at the destination. When you have a booking at an Austrian resort and skiing to do sitting around at a stinky service station in central Germany off the autobahn with a strange looking dude ‘singing’ german crunk outside the door is a remarkably boring place to be.

Yes, the only stop was for the wife’s toilet break, but that was quicker than charging. An EV could not have done that journey (or the journey we did a few days ago into Czech Republic and then to Slovakia) in anything even approaching the time we did it in the diesel Audi.

Again, a Czech resort in the mountains with Czech beers and skiing on the Polish/Czech/Slovak border or sitting about with an underwhelming coffee, overcooked roadhouse food or (worse) prepackaged sandwich and slice of stale cake while waiting for a charge? I’ll take a diesel and non stop any day of the millennium.
"Aaron"


No, its not. I work with a number of people at work with Tesla's.

The issue with EV battery's is a lack of longterm data which is an evolving state although in the last 2-3 years the data growth is slowing with volume and age. For example there are only a handful of Model 3's that have crossed 200,000 miles on solely fast charge. The Chinese taxi's that I saw are only charged on fast charge.

The 60% is the more likely scenario of charging from around 20% usage to 80% which is the level at which the charge rate slows.

Tweets from Muck himself posted in Tesla forums as as well as other references state that yes its not a good idea to do it daily, but nothing wrong with doing it irregularly.

If you are driving from Poland to Austria and only stopping for the wife's No#1 and not even doing one yourself, its a F1 trip. Perhaps you find better petrol stations, we had much better experiences, maybe its driver error? Hell we had a Xmas dinner at a petrol station restaurant near where we were staying 25km from Salzburg it was that nice.

There are plenty of charging stations in Czech and Slovakia and considering the size of those two countries then you will have plenty of time to charge the car or what the hell are you doing there as you can drive through them on one charge?

Serbia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Romania and no go zones for EV's. Ukraine you can do it if keen.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Question, is the 43c difference because someone is ultra discounting or someone is charging top price.
RTT_Rules

Whatever the difference it exists between service stations with the same branding, so I'm not sure who the "someone" you refer to is!

These days with most newer cars capable of 700km or more to a tank and the numerous Ap's, I'm surprised the variations are still as much as they are as easy to plan away from such higer prices including rural areas.
RTT_Rules
As much of my driving is within a 120km radius of Dalby, most often nowhere near any service stations, almost 100% of the time I'm filling up in Dalby, so not that many options for planning away from higher prices! Even if I do hit Chinchilla or Kingaroy the pricing is pretty much the same.

You are basically relying on local traffic to get away with higher prices.
RTT_Rules
That is certainly true in the major centres, in my example Brisbane and its satellite cities. But many in such areas rarely venture out of them, so a captive customer base. Their own fault for living there I guess! Wink
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
the wife’s toilet break was quicker than charging an EV.
Aaron
I'm sure she's thrilled that you shared that piece of info here! Laughing
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My comment about mid journey recharge has more to it than the actual time it takes to recharge YOUR vehicle.  A 15 -20 minute stop assumes that you can drive straight to a charge point, hook up, and be recharged and on your way 15 or so minutes later.

I am thinking of the situation particularly at peak holiday periods when a lot of people who do not normally drive any serious distance descend on the highways and there is a greater demand for "refueling" whatever that might involve.  If you use the NSW north coast as an example, and it is the one I am most familiar with, once you reach the end of the freeway at Beresfield you would be approaching the need to recharge an EV and even if not then you would probably need to do so within the next 100kms or so.  (In my case Beresfield is around 230 kms from home just south of Sydney)  In that situation you are not really very likely to drive up to a charge point and hook up unless there are a very large number of them available.  If there is a queue then every vehicle in that queue represents a 15 - 20 minute wait to start YOUR recharge.  Compare that to a 3 - 4 minute wait to get to a bowser and I do not think it is going to slip painlessly into society.  

And you are going to have to go through the same exercise less than 3 hours or so later.

I acknowledge that that is a worst case scenario and that at other times the problem would be much reduced but to me it still suggests that with their current state of development an EV is unsuitable for journeys longer than their range from a full starting charge.

Sorry RTT_Rules, I generally agree with what you write, but not this time.
"7334"


I've driven the Pacific many a time, although in holiday time I'd avoid it and go inland or at night if possible, never lined up for fuel yet.Not saying it doesn't happen but it would be very rare and not something that would sway my choice in car. The advantage of EV is that you can at least charge it over night thus reducing the time at recharge station which BTW are rarely at petrol stations for now anyway.

I agree the number of recharge points are still not exactly plentiful, but the growth rate is currently exponential and as I was studying this this week I was a bit stunned on how many new ones since last I looked about 6mth ago, especially in rural areas.West of the Newell and Licehart Hwy, they tend to be destination chargers at caravan parks, so obviously some are expecting or getting customers or at least the one in the various photos.

I tend a calculation with my dad a while back comparing Australia to US in number of fast chargers to EV"s and the likely hood of finding a charging station busy in rural Australia would be very low, noting most are double outlets and again so rare who would rarely care. Again did you buy your car for the 1-2 yr trip or your day to day life were for the other 340 days of the year you never even set foot in a petrol station because your car is fully charged at the start of every day? On your holiday are you like Aaron and trying to set record time or just chilling and getting on with it? Its all about mindset and if you want those issues to dominate your mindset, good luck!

For example, our recent trip Gosford to Melbourne via Bathurst, Gunadagi, Wagga, Bendigo.
- Stopped for fuel at Mt Vic and a feed, took 30min or so
- Overnight at Litghgow
- Stopped for fuel on highway to 50km Nth Gundagai, also had a feed
- Overnight at Gundagai
- Stopped for fuel Lockart, fuel, feed and play in the park
- A few days at Bendigo

Based on current charge station locations we couldn't have driven the above route to Benidgo without a prolonged stop at Cobram (which we sort of had anyway), but perhaps in 12mth it maybe different.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Question, is the 43c difference because someone is ultra discounting or someone is charging top price.
RTT_Rules

Whatever the difference it exists between service stations with the same branding, so I'm not sure who the "someone" you refer to is!

These days with most newer cars capable of 700km or more to a tank and the numerous Ap's, I'm surprised the variations are still as much as they are as easy to plan away from such higer prices including rural areas.
RTT_Rules
As much of my driving is within a 120km radius of Dalby, most often nowhere near any service stations, almost 100% of the time I'm filling up in Dalby, so not that many options for planning away from higher prices! Even if I do hit Chinchilla or Kingaroy the pricing is pretty much the same.

You are basically relying on local traffic to get away with higher prices.
RTT_Rules
That is certainly true in the major centres, in my example Brisbane and its satellite cities. But many in such areas rarely venture out of them, so a captive customer base. Their own fault for living there I guess! Wink
"Graham4405"


43c is alot more than the retail margin so it must be driven by the wholesaler. They must be trying to compete against others on same corridor?

Don't know about that ap you are using but petrolspy.com.au seems to clearly show all the brands and prices. Today there is about a 20c range from lowest to highest. Bowenville one of the cheapest.

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