It's time to act on fast rail

 

News article: It's time to act on fast rail

Chief Minister Andrew Barr's statement that "the immediate focus should be on making the train faster and not on developing a high speed network" in reference to the future of the Canberra-Sydney rail link.

  viaprojects Train Controller

RTT have you lived in the UK . Melbourne Sydney are big city's with a very busy flight schedule one of biggest in the world. Now  England 55 million Scotland  3 million did you get that 3 million . Edinburgh 1 million we focus on one  line  From Euston to Edinburgh. .The stops at Euston  Doncaster York Newcastle Edinburgh these are  not big towns exept London.Now how many trains a day on the line 8-10 harvest of 5 to 6 million People  Why aren't we discussing planes  RTT ? Looks like trains have made them redundent.. .Melbournes 5; million Sydney 5 million and Canberra 1 million. Now until  we  build castles in the sky , those  planes don't. give money to country Victorua  or  NSW. Its the private  .airports, private  uber and .the Dirty Money Crown. England has many Cross country lines and some handsome  ones like  Marlybone to Birmingham a little like  the  Bendigo Line .if one was to Compare.
C2


abit off ...uk has trains but fills the sky when on holidays ... in AU government sets the policy on transport an sold it ..just like the we don't have the cash policy ...funny thing Railpage has a bit of a negative side to rail projects...

Sydney has full trains and does not make a profit ...easy to do the same with HSR and close the air routes but some one will want to be paid ( airports and airlines )

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  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

Fast rail should be a national priority for Australia starting with SYDNEY Canberra and melbourne adelaide to benefit western Victoria.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Adelaide? Are you serious?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Fast rail should be a national priority for Australia starting with SYDNEY Canberra and melbourne adelaide to benefit western Victoria.
"MetroFemme"
Both would be up there with the greatest waste of money known to man.

Fast rail is only effective over longer distances with heavy passenger demand.  There's no point in saving 5 or 10 minutes over a 200 km journey.  It needs to save 4 or 5 hours over 1000 km.

Sydney-Canberra would be absurdly short; Melbourne-Adelaide has no demonstrable demand.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Melbourne - Geelong is even more ridiculous.

Why is it that the most ridiculously idiotic rail schemes here in Australia seem to attract the greatest attention and, in some cases, taxpayers money, (like Morrison's $2 billion) for Melbourne - Geelong in half an hour when desperately needed projects never even get a mention?

I blame FITH* disease
* FITH comes in two stages, the lesser being 'Funny in the Head' but the far more prevalent in rail project circles is 'F##### in the Head'.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sydney-Canberra would be absurdly short; Melbourne-Adelaide has no demonstrable demand.
Valvegear

Sydney canberra is about right on distance but the cost is what is most absurd.

As for C2's comments about Sydney's trains. They are full because of over 1 million trips a day and without these trains the city would cease to function. None of this is remotely true for a vhst between Sydney and Canberra or Melbourne.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Fast rail should be a national priority for Australia starting with SYDNEY Canberra and melbourne adelaide to benefit western Victoria.
Both would be up there with the greatest waste of money known to man.

Fast rail is only effective over longer distances with heavy passenger demand.  There's no point in saving 5 or 10 minutes over a 200 km journey.  It needs to save 4 or 5 hours over 1000 km.

Sydney-Canberra would be absurdly short; Melbourne-Adelaide has no demonstrable demand.
Valvegear
If you ride on fast rail services In Europe, people just don't travel on 1000 km journeys (cost too much, unless you have a go anywhere rail pass or a holiday special fare)

You will find the turnover of passengers (on a long run of say 500 km's) Is very frequent, many traveling under 200 km's

Have you seen how many commercial aeroplanes there are In the skies over Europe ?

Last year I wanted to travel from Oslo to Zurich (I had a go anywhere rail pass, that covered that journey) but It was going to take 38 hours on 6 different trains or 2 hours (plus probably another 3 hours Airport related) to fly.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Adelaide? Are you serious?
railblogger
Blackpool without the glamour? It does need a little federal assistance. That $100 billion Pyne bribe is going to run out at some stage.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Melbourne - Geelong is even more ridiculous.

Why is it that the most ridiculously idiotic rail schemes here in Australia seem to attract the greatest attention and, in some cases, taxpayers money, (like Morrison's $2 billion) for Melbourne - Geelong in half an hour when desperately needed projects never even get a mention?

I blame FITH* disease
* FITH comes in two stages, the lesser being 'Funny in the Head' but the far more prevalent in rail project circles is 'F##### in the Head'.
YM-Mundrabilla
New Year's Resolution?? A full and enthusiastic embrace of acronyms (AFAEEOA)?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

RTT have you lived in the UK . Melbourne Sydney are big city's with a very busy flight schedule one of biggest in the world. Now  England 55 million Scotland  3 million did you get that 3 million . Edinburgh 1 million we focus on one  line  From Euston to Edinburgh. .The stops at Euston  Doncaster York Newcastle Edinburgh these are  not big towns exept London.Now how many trains a day on the line 8-10 harvest of 5 to 6 million People  Why aren't we discussing planes  RTT ? Looks like trains have made them redundent.. .Melbournes 5; million Sydney 5 million and Canberra 1 million. Now until  we  build castles in the sky , those  planes don't. give money to country Victorua  or  NSW. Its the private  .airports, private  uber and .the Dirty Money Crown. England has many Cross country lines and some handsome  ones like  Marlybone to Birmingham a little like  the  Bendigo Line .if one was to Compare.
C2
There is a lot of misinformation here C2. Scotland's population is 5.4 Million not 3. Edinburgh's Population is 482,000, Metro Glasgow is 1.6 Million. The London Main Line Station for Edinburgh is Kings Cross not Euston, and you seem to forget. Air services between Melbourne and Sydney require no discourse to Public Funds. A VHST on the other hand will require at least $100 Billion to build the things plus additional funding for the trains , signalling and Stations etc. And in all likelihood would require a federal government subsidy to keep it going and to keep fares reasonable. The current cheapest fare on that old obsolete XPT is $75.00 one way. Can you imagine how much would be charged for the newly built railway.

Just work with the ARTC to modernise the existing corridor.

Michael
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Air services between Melbourne and Sydney require no discourse to Public Funds. A VHST on the other hand will require at least $100 Billion to build the things plus additional funding for the trains , signalling and Stations etc. And in all likelihood would require a federal government subsidy to keep it going and to keep fares reasonable. The current cheapest fare on that old obsolete XPT is $75.00 one way. Can you imagine how much would be charged for the newly built railway.

Just work with the ARTC to modernise the existing corridor.

Michael
mejhammers1
I hope Federal Labor takes note of that and drops its obsession with High Speed Rail.  All we need and can in fact afford, is Medium Speed Rail.  It would be a vast improvement on what we already have.

Liken it to the gradual upgrading of our major interstate highways to dual carriageway standard which has taken place over the last 50-60 years, where some existing sections were widened and straightened and others bypassed with new construction.  Later this year, the dual carriageway will finally be completed between Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.  It didn't need a totally new corridor.  It's now time that the focus shifted back to similarly upgrading the major rail corridors.  Hopefully, it can be done at a much faster pace.
  viaprojects Train Controller

..

Just work with the ARTC to modernise the existing corridor.

Michael
I hope Federal Labor takes note of that and drops its obsession with High Speed Rail.  All we need and can in fact afford, is Medium Speed Rail.  It would be a vast improvement on what we already have.

Liken it to the gradual upgrading of our major interstate highways to dual carriageway standard which has taken place over the last 50-60 years, where some existing sections were widened and straightened and others bypassed with new construction.  
Transtopic


nice but no help... just with the local Sydney projects we gain some thing an wait for another ... we get some roads with a toll for the freight and traffic issues ... a few rail projects and all the parking options go missing ..

don't think ARTC will upgrade rail to passenger / electric standards unless there is a client paying for the requirements...
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
..

Just work with the ARTC to modernise the existing corridor.

Michael
I hope Federal Labor takes note of that and drops its obsession with High Speed Rail.  All we need and can in fact afford, is Medium Speed Rail.  It would be a vast improvement on what we already have.

Liken it to the gradual upgrading of our major interstate highways to dual carriageway standard which has taken place over the last 50-60 years, where some existing sections were widened and straightened and others bypassed with new construction.  


nice but no help... just with the local Sydney projects we gain some thing an wait for another ... we get some roads with a toll for the freight and traffic issues ... a few rail projects and all the parking options go missing ..

don't think ARTC will upgrade rail to passenger / electric standards unless there is a client paying for the requirements...
viaprojects
Oh what a cynic you are!  ARTC alone doesn't determine rail infrastructure upgrading policy.  If the Federal or State governments are prepared to allocate greater funding to upgrade the existing rail infrastructure, then ARTC must comply, end of story.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

..

Just work with the ARTC to modernise the existing corridor.

Michael
I hope Federal Labor takes note of that and drops its obsession with High Speed Rail.  All we need and can in fact afford, is Medium Speed Rail.  It would be a vast improvement on what we already have.

Liken it to the gradual upgrading of our major interstate highways to dual carriageway standard which has taken place over the last 50-60 years, where some existing sections were widened and straightened and others bypassed with new construction.  


nice but no help... just with the local Sydney projects we gain some thing an wait for another ... we get some roads with a toll for the freight and traffic issues ... a few rail projects and all the parking options go missing ..

don't think ARTC will upgrade rail to passenger / electric standards unless there is a client paying for the requirements...
Oh what a cynic you are!  ARTC alone doesn't determine rail infrastructure upgrading policy.  If the Federal or State governments are prepared to allocate greater funding to upgrade the existing rail infrastructure, then ARTC must comply, end of story.
Transtopic
Exactly. The ARTC is an agency of the Federal Government.

Michael
  C2 Junior Train Controller

200 K/h will be cheaper and improve reliability for freight. It won't attract meb-syd direct traffic like high speed will and isn't that the market you want.
  GoldenGirl Locomotive Fireman

Melbourne - Geelong is even more ridiculous.

Why is it that the most ridiculously idiotic rail schemes here in Australia seem to attract the greatest attention and, in some cases, taxpayers money, (like Morrison's $2 billion) for Melbourne - Geelong in half an hour when desperately needed projects never even get a mention?

I blame FITH* disease
* FITH comes in two stages, the lesser being 'Funny in the Head' but the far more prevalent in rail project circles is 'F##### in the Head'.
New Year's Resolution?? A full and enthusiastic embrace of acronyms (AFAEEOA)?
fzr560
Perhaps you could make a start with your user name?
  a6et Minister for Railways

200 K/h will be cheaper and improve reliability for freight. It won't attract meb-syd direct traffic like high speed will and isn't that the market you want.
C2
The key to answering that question is simple, its not just the train that will improve the timings, but it will be the track alignment along with the trains speed.

When the XPT was under trial, a police radar was set up on the southern line where it was recorded at doing a bit over 180Km/h on that old track south of Wagga Wagga.

What is the average speed as it stands now for the XPT between Sydney and Albury?  The distance is approx. 640km's with the TT taking around 7 1/2 hours, once the track is realigned and if it isn't then it becomes another missed opportunity for freight and for regional passenger rail.

By having an almost straight alignment south of Campbelltown  along with gradient reductions, rather than the current long hours the TT could easily be reduced to around half the time it is now, or around 4hrs overall.  What takes place south of Albury will be determined by the Victorian government but you are looking at another 3.20 hrs so far on the current TT, if it can be at least cut in half and the capitals to capitals are higher speeds making it more competitive with Flying depending on the ticket prices.

Some time back an survey was conducted on the basis of rail vses flying to Melbourne. At that time the XPT ran via Strathfield so the figures are a bit different now depending on where one lives.  Flying to Melbourne meant the passenger had to be transported to the airport, time factors ranged depending on where the passenger was travelling from and by what means. Often driving to the airport was longer than going by Train, especially outside of the daylight/business hours, usually a need also to be at airport an hour before departure was needed, departure being the time the plane was taken off its moorings. Then around 15minutes on average until take off.  On arrival at the Melbourne airport it could be up to an hour getting through the barriers and then catch taxi or bus to the city, at least one hour. On average the flight was a bit longer than the scheduled 1:25 for most flights.

Thus for the passenger flying to Melbourne and likely the same in opposite direction was around the 4 1/2 - 5.00 hours mark. Much depended on traffic conditions if driving and many still use the train to get to the airport as the services are usually pretty good between the two airport and Central.  Bare in mind though that these times did not take into account the walk and distance from the train, or from car park/drop off point.  Other things that extended the times for flying included the wait for luggage to come down to carousel, then to taxi, bus or transport to destination.

Rail at a general average speed of 160Km/h with ability to run up to 200Km/h will be very competitive. Although as I said above the price factor will need to be considered, and here is where rail could offer discounts for families travelling and other incentives to compete. Ticket purchase includes the fare on each end of the trip by bus or local rail metropolitan/city services.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner



nice but no help... just with the local Sydney projects we gain some thing an wait for another ... we get some roads with a toll for the freight and traffic issues ... a few rail projects and all the parking options go missing ..

don't think ARTC will upgrade rail to passenger / electric standards unless there is a client paying for the requirements...
viaprojects

There is no need to upgrade the main south to electric standards. If the ARTC fix the alignment the XPT and it's replacement get a shorter journey time. There is no justification to spend $100 billion on a vhst project in Australia.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

200 K/h will be cheaper and improve reliability for freight. It won't attract meb-syd direct traffic like high speed will and isn't that the market you want.
C2

Direct Sydney to Melbourne is not the traffic you want since a vhst will not take any significant amount from the airline market without significant subsidies from the federal government. What you want is a faster freight and passenger travel time for regional areas which a $100 billion vhst won't do.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

my head is spinning with these vast amount of $'s being mentioned, we just do not have the population, reliable choochoos is what we and the plain commuter want.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Only marginally more interesting than Melbourne to Geelong in half an hour (or whatever).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

my head is spinning with these vast amount of $'s being mentioned, we just do not have the population, reliable choochoos is what we and the plain commuter want.
trainbrain

We do need some line re alignments and so some money needs to be spent but it shouldn't be for an over priced passenger only rail system. Regardless of how nice it would be.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
At the end of the day, the fares that would need to be charged to recoup operational and capital costs without subsidies would be prohibitive, so why bother with HSR in the first place?  It would never be competitive with air fares, which have no subsidy.  Upgrading to Medium Speed Rail standards can be done at a fraction of the cost of HSR using the majority of existing rail corridors.  Building a completely new HSR line would be a total waste of resources.  MSR, as sims has already mentioned, would benefit both passenger and freight services, while HSR would almost certainly be exclusively for passenger services, where the demand wouldn't be there to make it viable.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
while HSR would almost certainly be exclusively for passenger services, where the demand wouldn't be there to make it viable.
Transtopic

How do we know the demand wouldn't be there to make it viable Question

Stats, data, projections...would seem to be the logical progression of this thread...not simply hearsay from a naysayer/s.

Mike.
  a6et Minister for Railways

while HSR would almost certainly be exclusively for passenger services, where the demand wouldn't be there to make it viable.

How do we know the demand wouldn't be there to make it viable Question

Stats, data, projections...would seem to be the logical progression of this thread...not simply hearsay from a naysayer/s.

Mike.
The Vinelander
We don't know for certain, the biggest issue really is our overall low population pinch points and the capital cities.  Density of populations outside the capitals has a degree of limitations on it.  There is so much other infrastructure that this country lags behind in as well, I was looking at aspects as to water resources yesterday, and a City such as Tamworth in NSW is projected to hit 63000 in population, yet its dam is not far off being empty and the larger one built to water proof the region, Copeton Dam is worse.

Tamworth has a pretty good air service, but a decent fast rail service could be of benefit, the problem like the main south is the old alignments as well as the competition for the paths with coal trains and grain when the drought is broken.

The way the population is expanding, a work towards faster rail rather than specifically HSR would benefit both the passenger services but also freight.  I do not see HSR being viable for years to come, thing is if there is a major rethink and work towards  faster train development which means the progressive upgrade of grade easing along with realignments then this debate will still be going in 50 years time.

If that was done especially with the realignments making 200Km/h achievable but provide for future faster services when the need arises at least should be in the futures planning for rail.

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