An all-stations future for T9?

 
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
So while it is possible, it is not viable without disruption.


I do wonder if it's viable to make them high-speed crossovers. That would assist matters immensely.
s3_gunzel
There's no point in having high speed crossovers when trains are slowing down approaching Strathfield from Burwood and vice-versa from Strathfield to Burwood.  In any event, as sims and I have already pointed out, it's the crossing conflicts at the flat junction that make it unworkable for T9 to cross to and from T2, unlike the cross from T9 to T1, which is grade separated.  Sectorisation was brought in to minimise these crossing conflicts as far as possible and I cannot visualise going back on that strategy.

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  DCook Junior Train Controller

I think it is safe to say that this plan should be discarded and not spoken of again
Even if they do figure something out, strathfield is still one of the worst bottlenecks on the network and any modification like this should be not used as it will do more damage than good
  Totoro Station Master

DCook, Transtopic and others: thanks again for your calm and considered analyses. I think you are right that this probably won’t come to pass.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Hi Petarkco could you help me to understand the relevance of that document to this particular discussion?

(It looks like 48 pages of anti-Metro ramblings, but perhaps I’m a poor judge..) Surprised
It's probably not relevant to this particular discussion about T9, but it nonetheless is a well researched submission which makes some valid points about the impacts the metro conversion of the Bankstown Line will have on the broader rail network, which appear to be glossed over, or more damningly, completely ignored.  However, that's a discussion best left on another thread.
Transtopic

The only affect it will have is to the traffic between Lidcombe, Bankstown and Cabramatta not having direct peak hour services to the city. T2 services are highly unlikely to change in peak hour post Bankstown metro although you may see some more via regent park services to Bankstown and Liverpool introduced in the off peak. T8 will be able to have increased services as a result of the Bankstown metro.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
DCook, Transtopic and others: thanks again for your calm and considered analyses. I think you are right that this probably won’t come to pass.
Totoro
You're welcome.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Hi Petarkco could you help me to understand the relevance of that document to this particular discussion?

(It looks like 48 pages of anti-Metro ramblings, but perhaps I’m a poor judge..) Surprised
It's probably not relevant to this particular discussion about T9, but it nonetheless is a well researched submission which makes some valid points about the impacts the metro conversion of the Bankstown Line will have on the broader rail network, which appear to be glossed over, or more damningly, completely ignored.  However, that's a discussion best left on another thread.

The only affect it will have is to the traffic between Lidcombe, Bankstown and Cabramatta not having direct peak hour services to the city. T2 services are highly unlikely to change in peak hour post Bankstown metro although you may see some more via regent park services to Bankstown and Liverpool introduced in the off peak. T8 will be able to have increased services as a result of the Bankstown metro.
simstrain
It will not only affect traffic between Lidcombe, Bankstown and Cabramatta, but also more convenient direct services from Liverpool without the need to interchange to the metro.  I would hardly gloss that over as a minor inconvenience.  The current direct service on T2 from Leppington and Liverpool via Granville will be maintained, but it's a lot longer and slower than the more direct and faster route via Regents Park and the Inner West Line.

There's no guarantee that the metro will be extended from Bankstown to Liverpool in the foreseeable future because of competing infrastructure projects which may have greater priority.  That includes significantly increased investment in upgrading the existing network.  Liverpool would then be left out on a limb, which belies its status as one of Sydney's major regional centres.  This can easily be addressed at far less cost by restoring direct services on T2 from Leppington and Liverpool via Regents Park.  Completing the sextup between Homebush and Lidcombe would allow these services to be separated from the Liverpool via Granville services via the Suburban track, shared with the T9 Northern Line from Strathfield to the CBD.

The Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park services could run at 8tph all stations to Burwood, then semi-express to the City Circle, shared with up to 8tph all-stations from Bankstown on the Inner West Line, a total of 16tph which I believe is the current limit with the mixed stopping pattern.  With the introduction of ATO, this could possibly be increased to a total of 18-20tph.

The Liverpool via Granville services could be operated at 6tph, combined with 6tph on the T1 Western Line from Blacktown as all-stations services to Burwood, then express to Redfern on the Suburban tracks across the Harbour bridge.  That would also be shared with 8tph T9 Northern Line services from Strathfield, bringing it to 20tph and potentially 24tph with ATO.  The Parramatta terminators/starters would be cancelled.

The remaining T1 Western and Richmond Line services would be re-directed to Sydney Terminal via the Main Tracks along with Western and Northern Intercity services as an interim measure until such time as a City Relief Line is built.  Ultimately, this won't be enough in the longer term to cope with the rising demand, without further track amplification on the Western Line corridor, which should include an express tunnel from Parramatta to the CBD and a potential City Relief Line.  The metro alone can't address the increasing congestion on the existing tracks.

Increased frequencies on T8 could have been achieved by separating the Airport Line from the City Circle and re-directing it to another terminus in the CBD.  The metro should have been continued on a more southerly alignment from Sydenham towards Miranda through areas without a rail service, leaving the Bankstown Line intact, without the compromises now being faced.

This discussion is now getting way off track, so I suggest any further comment should be directed to the following thread.

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2128513.htm#2128513
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Nobody from Liverpool takes the via Bankstown train unless they are going to Bankstown or somewhere on the Bankstown line and so it won't have any effect on us at Liverpool for getting in to the city. While I'm not a fan of the metro conversion I have done the maths and even with the change the time taken will be roughly the same as it is now at about an hour.

Via regents park is shorter and will still be possible post metro but until such time as the third track pair is built between Strathfield and Lidcombe and with the low patronage of that line vs the via granville route there is no way direct via RP services will return.

The T9 sharing the suburbans with T2 is only going to happen if the system goes back to how it operated before the 2013 timetable change or if the CBD relief is built moving all T1 services off the line across the bridge. Moving T9 on to the locals in off peak might be possible but in peak hour it is bound to screw up the T2 even more then it already is. It is bound to also reduce how many T1 services are possible as well.

In the end however I think that ATP allowing an increase to 24 trains an hour across the bridge is the best hope for the T9 getting a full 8-10 suburban trains an hour.

There is no need whatsoever to run 16 trains an hour to either Bankstown or Liverpool via RP.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

T1 has 13 trains an hour across the bridge at the moment and you want to limit that to 6 trains an hour Transtopic. Good luck with that. Adding extra BM and CCN services is a better solution especially if amplification on the northern line happens as well.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Nobody from Liverpool takes the via Bankstown train unless they are going to Bankstown or somewhere on the Bankstown line and so it won't have any effect on us at Liverpool for getting in to the city. While I'm not a fan of the metro conversion I have done the maths and even with the change the time taken will be roughly the same as it is now at about an hour.

Via regents park is shorter and will still be possible post metro but until such time as the third track pair is built between Strathfield and Lidcombe and with the low patronage of that line vs the via granville route there is no way direct via RP services will return.

The T9 sharing the suburbans with T2 is only going to happen if the system goes back to how it operated before the 2013 timetable change or if the CBD relief is built moving all T1 services off the line across the bridge. Moving T9 on to the locals in off peak might be possible but in peak hour it is bound to screw up the T2 even more then it already is. It is bound to also reduce how many T1 services are possible as well.

In the end however I think that ATP allowing an increase to 24 trains an hour across the bridge is the best hope for the T9 getting a full 8-10 suburban trains an hour.

There is no need whatsoever to run 16 trains an hour to either Bankstown or Liverpool via RP.
simstrain
I would have thought that you would welcome the restoration of the more direct and faster services from Liverpool to the City Circle via Regents Park sims, compared with the longer and slower route via Granville.  It would also be faster and more convenient for commuters from Leppington and any extension of the SWRL, although in the longer term these services should more logically run via the East Hills Line.  If as you say, few use the services from Liverpool to the CBD via Bankstown, then there would be even less incentive for them to do so, when they have to interchange to the metro with little or no time advantage.  The single seat journey from Leppington/Liverpool to the CBD via Regents Park, which would be faster than the route via Granville, may be a more attractive option.

In the short term, the services via Regents Park wouldn't necessarily require completion of the sextup between Homebush and Lidcombe, as the existing Suburban tracks with upgraded signalling could cope with a mix of services from Liverpool via Regents Park and Granville and the Western Line up to 20-24 tph.  The additional services which I proposed post metro from Bankstown to the CBD via Regents Park could be truncated at Homebush on the Locals until the sextup is completed.

Any prospect of T9 being merged with T2 on the Locals, which is the subject of this thread, has been put to bed, so I think there is no point in discussing this further, other than to say that all T9 services, currently at 8tph, could run on the Suburbans across the Harbour Bridge if greater use was made of the Mains for Western Line express services to Sydney Terminal until such time as a City Relief Line is built.  However, that doesn't leave much room for expansion of services and further amplification will ultimately be needed.

I wasn't suggesting 16tph to either Bankstown or Liverpool, but 8tph to each via Regents Park.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
T1 has 13 trains an hour across the bridge at the moment and you want to limit that to 6 trains an hour Transtopic. Good luck with that. Adding extra BM and CCN services is a better solution especially if amplification on the northern line happens as well.
simstrain
You're taking my comments out of context sims.  That's not exactly what I was implying. Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough, so apologies.

There are currently 16tph T1 services across the bridge plus 4tph T9 services in the morning peak.  I was suggesting that the 4tph T2 services starting from Parramatta be extended as an all-stations service from Blacktown and increased to 6tph, continuing on the Suburban tracks from Homebush across the Harbour Bridge, rather than on the Locals to the City Circle.  These services effectively become part of T1.  They would share the Suburban tracks with Liverpool via Granville services @ 6tph from Granville and T9 Northern Line services @ 8tph from Strathfield - a total of 20tph with the current signalling.  The Suburban tracks between Lidcombe and Homebush would run at a total of 20tph, with 8tph from Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park, 6tph from Liverpool via Granville and 6tph from Blacktown, until sextuplication is completed allowing more services.

With the extension of the current T2 starters from Parramatta to Blacktown (all-stations) and an increase to 6tph, the T1 Penrith and Richmond services could be reduced to 12tph, all of which would be express services using the Main tracks and terminating at Central.  This would be an interim measure as a precursor to extension to a future City Relief Line from Eveleigh from the Mains and ultimately a separate express tunnel from Parramatta to cater for future growth, independent of the metro.
BM and CCN Intercity services @ 4tph each could still be accommodated on the Mains to Sydney Terminal until such time as further amplification works are undertaken.

All of this highlights how the government has been trying to screw every last drop out of the existing network to meet the increasing demand, without facing up to the fact that significantly greater investment should be directed towards upgrading it in preference to the metro expansion, which is still warranted in the longer term.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

T1 has 13 trains an hour across the bridge at the moment and you want to limit that to 6 trains an hour Transtopic. Good luck with that. Adding extra BM and CCN services is a better solution especially if amplification on the northern line happens as well.
You're taking my comments out of context sims.  That's not exactly what I was implying. Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough, so apologies.

There are currently 16tph T1 services across the bridge plus 4tph T9 services in the morning peak.  I was suggesting that the 4tph T2 services starting from Parramatta be extended as an all-stations service from Blacktown and increased to 6tph, continuing on the Suburban tracks from Homebush across the Harbour Bridge, rather than on the Locals to the City Circle.  These services effectively become part of T1.  They would share the Suburban tracks with Liverpool via Granville services @ 6tph from Granville and T9 Northern Line services @ 8tph from Strathfield - a total of 20tph with the current signalling.  The Suburban tracks between Lidcombe and Homebush would run at a total of 20tph, with 8tph from Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park, 6tph from Liverpool via Granville and 6tph from Blacktown, until sextuplication is completed allowing more services.

With the extension of the current T2 starters from Parramatta to Blacktown (all-stations) and an increase to 6tph, the T1 Penrith and Richmond services could be reduced to 12tph, all of which would be express services using the Main tracks and terminating at Central.  This would be an interim measure as a precursor to extension to a future City Relief Line from Eveleigh from the Mains and ultimately a separate express tunnel from Parramatta to cater for future growth, independent of the metro.
BM and CCN Intercity services @ 4tph each could still be accommodated on the Mains to Sydney Terminal until such time as further amplification works are undertaken.

All of this highlights how the government has been trying to screw every last drop out of the existing network to meet the increasing demand, without facing up to the fact that significantly greater investment should be directed towards upgrading it in preference to the metro expansion, which is still warranted in the longer term.
Transtopic

Before I make my next statement can I get your confirmation on these numbers you put out. I think you are forgetting about including the south coast line numbers in to your mains numbers which makes your numbers impossible to reach as they share the mains corridor between redfern and central terminal.

Mains - 4 x BM, 4 x CCN and 12 x T1.
Suburbans - 6 x T1 Blacktown, 8 x T9 and 6 x T2 via granville.
Locals -  8 x via regents park, 6 x via granville and 6 x T2 to blacktown?
  Totoro Station Master

Just a thought, but shouldn’t Metro West be taking priority over the relief line concept anyway? Metro will provide an extra 20 tph in addition to the existing services with an entirely new CBD station. Not to mention it will have the advantages of being a fully independent line, largely underground and computer controlled, therefore less susceptible to weather and staffing issues.

It will also provide easy interchange at either Westmead, Parramatta or North Strathfield for customers from the BM, T2,5 and 9 lines. Seems like a really good idea to me at least..
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Just a thought, but shouldn’t Metro West be taking priority over the relief line concept anyway? Metro will provide an extra 20 tph in addition to the existing services with an entirely new CBD station. Not to mention it will have the advantages of being a fully independent line, largely underground and computer controlled, therefore less susceptible to weather and staffing issues.

It will also provide easy interchange at either Westmead, Parramatta or North Strathfield for customers from the BM, T2,5 and 9 lines. Seems like a really good idea to me at least..
Totoro

Having the T1 interchange at westmead for the metro is a really really bad idea and a significant reduction of service for people west of westmead. This is not to say that the metro shouldn't be built but for the purpose of interchanging of T1 trains that is a very bad idea. Interchanging at crossing points like epping, chatswood, strathfield, granville is tolerable because of the different directions lines go in. Nobody that isn't in the inner circle of sydney metro actually knows where the MW stations will actually be as of yet either and so you can't really tell if there will be any time saving by interchanging but going by my understanding it will most likely result in a similar or longer travel time.

Personally I think the Metro west should be canned for building the metro south west properly. But this won't happen since every electorate along the bankstown line are labor seats and god forbid the liberals spend any money in these areas.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
T1 has 13 trains an hour across the bridge at the moment and you want to limit that to 6 trains an hour Transtopic. Good luck with that. Adding extra BM and CCN services is a better solution especially if amplification on the northern line happens as well.
You're taking my comments out of context sims.  That's not exactly what I was implying. Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough, so apologies.

There are currently 16tph T1 services across the bridge plus 4tph T9 services in the morning peak.  I was suggesting that the 4tph T2 services starting from Parramatta be extended as an all-stations service from Blacktown and increased to 6tph, continuing on the Suburban tracks from Homebush across the Harbour Bridge, rather than on the Locals to the City Circle.  These services effectively become part of T1.  They would share the Suburban tracks with Liverpool via Granville services @ 6tph from Granville and T9 Northern Line services @ 8tph from Strathfield - a total of 20tph with the current signalling.  The Suburban tracks between Lidcombe and Homebush would run at a total of 20tph, with 8tph from Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park, 6tph from Liverpool via Granville and 6tph from Blacktown, until sextuplication is completed allowing more services.

With the extension of the current T2 starters from Parramatta to Blacktown (all-stations) and an increase to 6tph, the T1 Penrith and Richmond services could be reduced to 12tph, all of which would be express services using the Main tracks and terminating at Central.  This would be an interim measure as a precursor to extension to a future City Relief Line from Eveleigh from the Mains and ultimately a separate express tunnel from Parramatta to cater for future growth, independent of the metro.
BM and CCN Intercity services @ 4tph each could still be accommodated on the Mains to Sydney Terminal until such time as further amplification works are undertaken.

All of this highlights how the government has been trying to screw every last drop out of the existing network to meet the increasing demand, without facing up to the fact that significantly greater investment should be directed towards upgrading it in preference to the metro expansion, which is still warranted in the longer term.

Before I make my next statement can I get your confirmation on these numbers you put out. I think you are forgetting about including the south coast line numbers in to your mains numbers which makes your numbers impossible to reach as they share the mains corridor between redfern and central terminal.

Mains - 4 x BM, 4 x CCN and 12 x T1.
Suburbans - 6 x T1 Blacktown, 8 x T9 and 6 x T2 via granville.
Locals -  8 x via regents park, 6 x via granville and 6 x T2 to blacktown?
simstrain
You've double counted the 6 x T1 Blacktown services (formerly 4 x T2 Parramatta) and the 6 x T2 via Granville services under both the Suburbans and Locals.

It should be -

Mains - 4 x BM, 4 x CCN and 12 x T1.
Suburbans - 6 x T1 Blacktown, 8 x T9 and 6 x T2 via Granville.
Locals - 8 x T2 via Regents Park and 8 x T2 Homebush/Ashfield (truncated until sextup completed between Homebush and Lidcombe to allow the all-stations service to be extended to and from Bankstown via Regents Park).

With regard to South Coast Intercity services using the Mains between Redfern and Central to access the terminal platforms, that would add say an additional 4tph for the short length of track between the Illawarra Dive and the entrance of Central Yard in the vicinity of the Cleveland St overbridge.

I have never been able to get a definitive maximum number of trains that Sydney Terminal could handle, but with 14 terminating platforms being available after completion of the metro underground platforms, then surely it could handle 24tph or more, when Bondi Junction on the ESR with its recent upgrade was designed to handle 20tph terminating services with just 2 platforms and diamond crossovers.  

As I stated, the termination of T1 services at Central would only be an interim measure until the City Relief Line was built.  If Sydney Terminal became too congested, the South Coast Intercity services could be redirected to and from Bondi Junction as some currently are.

Putting future metro lines aside, I visualise an ultimate plan for the existing Sydney Trains network on the Western Line corridor, as being 3 track pairs from Parramatta/Granville to Lidcombe and 4 track pairs from Lidcombe to the CBD.  

The track pairs would feed into the CBD as follows -

1.  New express tunnel from Parramatta to City Relief Line terminating at Wynyard

2.  Existing Western Main Line to Sydney Terminal with grade separated crossovers with City Relief Line

3.  Existing Suburban Line, with T2 via Granville and T9 services as branches, through the CBD across the Harbour Bridge

4.  Locals to and from Bankstown and Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park including completion of sextup between Homebush      and Lidcombe.

The City Relief Line, which is only over a relatively short distance and with 4 new underground stations, could be built much sooner than Metro West, which is at least a decade or more away.  It would provide far greater and more immediate relief to the Western Line congestion and to the broader rail network generally.  The express tunnel would be a longer term option to cater for future growth, which Metro West won't provide for outer Western and Richmond Line commuters.  The tunnel would also free up capacity on the Mains for an increase in BM and CCN Intercity services to Sydney Terminal.

I haven't touched on upgrades to T4 and T8 as that's another story in itself, but for starters the Airport Line should ultimately be diverted from the City Circle to a new mid-city terminus.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Just a thought, but shouldn’t Metro West be taking priority over the relief line concept anyway? Metro will provide an extra 20 tph in addition to the existing services with an entirely new CBD station. Not to mention it will have the advantages of being a fully independent line, largely underground and computer controlled, therefore less susceptible to weather and staffing issues.

It will also provide easy interchange at either Westmead, Parramatta or North Strathfield for customers from the BM, T2,5 and 9 lines. Seems like a really good idea to me at least..
Totoro
The problem is Totoro, that contrary to the government's spin, Metro West won't provide relief to the T1 Western Line congestion which is mostly to the west of Parramatta.  This can only be addressed by increasing services from Penrith and Richmond to the CBD, but there are limited train paths available for them to continue beyond Parramatta.

The current T1 Western Line quad between St Marys and Granville is grossly underutilised, with only 26tph through Parramatta Station in the peak, when it is capable with signalling upgrading to run at least 40tph and up to 48tph with the introduction of Automatic Train Control.  However, there is insufficient line capacity for these additional services to continue through to the CBD.  It's totally impractical to terminate the additional services from the outer suburbs at Parramatta or Westmead, forcing interchange to the metro to continue into the CBD. It's a deceitful proposition.

Further, none of the proposed metro interchange stations at Westmead, Parramatta and North Strathfield are exactly designed to promote convenient interchange.  Both the Westmead and North Strathfield interchanges will require inconvenient up and down movements between the underground metro and surface Sydney Trains stations via overhead walkways and the Parramatta metro station is located a couple of hundred metres away from the existing station.  It's totally useless.  If you're continuing beyond Parramatta towards the CBD, depending on your destination, why would you bother interchanging when you may already have a seat.  You could say the same for T9 Northern Line commuters.

Unless the business case for Metro West can demonstrate that it is viable as a stand alone project, without relying on  cannibalising patronage from other existing lines, then I can see no point to it.  At best I can see it as a useful addition to Sydney's rail network, servicing a new rail corridor between Parramatta and the CBD, but let's not pretend that it it is the magic bullet to resolve congestion on the existing network, particularly on the busiest Western Line corridor.
  Totoro Station Master

Transtopic, I’m afraid I disagree about interchange being an issue here. Like many other customers on my daily commutes, I’m fine with getting up from my seat, or going up /down 1-2 flights of stairs (or take a lift) to change for a faster service. I do that all the time at Central, Epping and Strathfield with no overall time penalty. No doubt the interchange points at Westmead, Parra and Nth Strathfield will be made as direct and accessible as possible.

Geometrically, Metro sweeps out a much shorter arc without all the awkward curves through the inner west. So it seems to be a matter of simple physics that, even if it takes 5 minutes to change trains, you’ll still probably come out 5-10 minutes ahead which means a lot if you’re commuting every day.

I think Metro does require a change in mindset from customers; being less attached to the concept of a single seat journey especially, or even being willing to stand (the shock and horror!!). But to my mind that’s probably for the best, it gets us all moving a bit more and probably encourages a bit more politeness and understanding towards our fellow travellers.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Transtopic, I’m afraid I disagree about interchange being an issue here. Like many other customers on my daily commutes, I’m fine with getting up from my seat, or going up /down 1-2 flights of stairs (or take a lift) to change for a faster service. I do that all the time at Central, Epping and Strathfield with no overall time penalty. No doubt the interchange points at Westmead, Parra and Nth Strathfield will be made as direct and accessible as possible.

Geometrically, Metro sweeps out a much shorter arc without all the awkward curves through the inner west. So it seems to be a matter of simple physics that, even if it takes 5 minutes to change trains, you’ll still probably come out 5-10 minutes ahead which means a lot if you’re commuting every day.

I think Metro does require a change in mindset from customers; being less attached to the concept of a single seat journey especially, or even being willing to stand (the shock and horror!!). But to my mind that’s probably for the best, it gets us all moving a bit more and probably encourages a bit more politeness and understanding towards our fellow travellers.
Totoro

No they shouldn't get less attached to the idea. That 5 minute change at westmead will mean that the train I was on will be faster to it's destination in the cbd since I won't need to do another 5 minute change at central. Also when you are older and not as able bodied that 5 minute change can easily become a 10 minute change. If people think they can save a minute or 2 by changing at westmead that should be entirely voluntary and not enforced.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Getting back to your numbers Transtopic. The reason I put in the T2 via granville twice is because you mentioned it twice beforehand in regards to the suburbans and locals. 6 x T2 via granville is just not going to work. Canley Vale, Fairfield, Yennora, Guildford and Merrylands has 22,000 people in and 22,000 outs in 24 hours. Berala, Regents Park, Birrong, Yagoona, Sefton, Leightonfield, Villawood and Carramar only move 11,000 in and 11,000 out. You need to think of those numbers when thinking of reducing the T2 via granville to only 6 services an hour while giving 8 to the existing T3 lines. Via granville has 3 fewer stops but generates twice the traffic.

You are also not taking in to account the conflicting moves at Lidcombe which means you are definitely not getting 14 trains to any of the T2 / T3 destinations or the issues at the sefton triangle with shuttle T3 services fitting in post metro with your 8 via regents park services. Lets not forget adding T5 at Cabramatta. You seem to forget there was an actual reason for terminating at Lidcombe regardless of what restore inner west thinks.

You also seem to be forgetting that CCN services reduce the amount of services you can have on the mains as they cross at strathfield. It also doesn't matter how many platforms Central terminal has you aren't going to get 20 trains an hour in and out of the terminal from the mains plus the 4 trains or more from the south coast with all the conflicting moves in the yard. 16 is the best that you can get.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I think Metro does require a change in mindset from customers; being less attached to the concept of a single seat journey especially, or even being willing to stand (the shock and horror!!).
Totoro

Spend 3 hours a day standing/waiting for a train and you'll have a different opinion.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Just a thought, but shouldn’t Metro West be taking priority over the relief line concept anyway? Metro will provide an extra 20 tph in addition to the existing services with an entirely new CBD station. Not to mention it will have the advantages of being a fully independent line, largely underground and computer controlled, therefore less susceptible to weather and staffing issues.

It will also provide easy interchange at either Westmead, Parramatta or North Strathfield for customers from the BM, T2,5 and 9 lines. Seems like a really good idea to me at least..
The problem is Totoro, that contrary to the government's spin, Metro West won't provide relief to the T1 Western Line congestion which is mostly to the west of Parramatta.  This can only be addressed by increasing services from Penrith and Richmond to the CBD, but there are limited train paths available for them to continue beyond Parramatta.

The current T1 Western Line quad between St Marys and Granville is grossly underutilised, with only 26tph through Parramatta Station in the peak, when it is capable with signalling upgrading to run at least 40tph and up to 48tph with the introduction of Automatic Train Control.  However, there is insufficient line capacity for these additional services to continue through to the CBD.  It's totally impractical to terminate the additional services from the outer suburbs at Parramatta or Westmead, forcing interchange to the metro to continue into the CBD. It's a deceitful proposition.
Transtopic

What I suspect is likely to happen - at least in the short term after Metro West is opened - is minor stations on the Cumberland line will not get a direct service to the city.

The full extent to which the HR network will be modified to feed reluctant passengers onto the Metro will largely depend on the fine print of the operator's contract, exactly how much - and how much by - the State Gvt will underwrite the Western Metro's anticipated patronage.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


What I suspect is likely to happen - at least in the short term after Metro West is opened - is minor stations on the Cumberland line will not get a direct service to the city.

The full extent to which the HR network will be modified to feed reluctant passengers onto the Metro will largely depend on the fine print of the operator's contract, exactly how much - and how much by - the State Gvt will underwrite the Western Metro's anticipated patronage.
djf01

The cumberland line doesn't go to the city and if you mean the T2 there are no minor stations along that route. I wouldn't put it past the nsw government to go that route since most of the electorates along the T2 are Labor seats and they seem hell bent on destroying facilities in those seats.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The cumberland line doesn't go to the city and if you mean the T2 there are no minor stations along that route. I wouldn't put it past the nsw government to go that route since most of the electorates along the T2 are Labor seats and they seem hell bent on destroying facilities in those seats.
simstrain

Yennora?
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Transtopic, I’m afraid I disagree about interchange being an issue here. Like many other customers on my daily commutes, I’m fine with getting up from my seat, or going up /down 1-2 flights of stairs (or take a lift) to change for a faster service. I do that all the time at Central, Epping and Strathfield with no overall time penalty. No doubt the interchange points at Westmead, Parra and Nth Strathfield will be made as direct and accessible as possible.

Geometrically, Metro sweeps out a much shorter arc without all the awkward curves through the inner west. So it seems to be a matter of simple physics that, even if it takes 5 minutes to change trains, you’ll still probably come out 5-10 minutes ahead which means a lot if you’re commuting every day.

I think Metro does require a change in mindset from customers; being less attached to the concept of a single seat journey especially, or even being willing to stand (the shock and horror!!). But to my mind that’s probably for the best, it gets us all moving a bit more and probably encourages a bit more politeness and understanding towards our fellow travellers.
Totoro
Interchange may not be an issue for some like yourself, but for others it is, particularly when you may have previously enjoyed a direct service to the CBD.  It's a backward step taking us back to the days when outer suburban commuters on the unelectrified lines had to rely on rail car shuttles to interchange to the then limits of the electrified network to reach the CBD, just as Southern Highlands commuters still do to this day.  As sims commented, it's one thing to change to a different line when your destination is outside of the CBD, which I think most accept, but another matter entirely when a previous direct journey to the CBD will now require interchange to another mode for some to complete the journey.

Anyway, you've missed the main point I was making, that Metro West isn't going to help relieve the greatest congestion on T1 to the west of Parramatta/Westmead, where the greatest growth in patronage is going to occur.  Although there is the spare track capacity to run more services from the outer suburbs as I previously explained, there is nowhere for them to continue east of Parramatta.  It's totally impractical to terminate any additional services at either Westmead or Parramatta, forcing interchange to the metro.  More commuters actually get off at Parramatta than get on.

There have been previous suggestions that all Richmond Line services should be diverted along the Cumberland Line route which would require the bulk of commuters who would be destined for the CBD to interchange to the metro or other direct Sydney Trains' services.  Good luck with that!  The idea has been around for a while, even before the metro concept came onto the agenda, but it's never been implemented. It doesn't take a genius to work out why.

Even if it was feasible, you can forget Parramatta as being a convenient interchange, as the metro station is proposed to be a couple of blocks away from the existing station.  Even Westmead and North Strathfield will hardly create any incentive to interchange, as the metro platforms won't be constructed under the existing surface platforms, but in the case of Westmead across a street and at North Strathfield across from the freight line dive.  In both instances it will require up and down movements to and from an overhead concourse, unlike the situation at Epping where there are direct escalator connections between the underground metro and surface platforms.  This is unlikely to be possible at either Westmead or North Strathfield.

Whether you get a faster trip by interchanging to the metro, taking into account interchange time, is also open to debate.  It will depend upon where your destination is in the CBD.  The location of the CBD station or stations for Metro West hasn't yet been confirmed, but assuming it will be in the northern CBD, it is likely to be faster by the metro, but if you're going to Redfern or Central, then it may be faster by staying on the existing line, which also has the potential to be speeded up significantly with further upgrades, which is often overlooked.

An express HR tunnel from Parramatta to the CBD could also be constructed on a more direct alignment allowing much faster speeds and journey times.  With potentially only one intermediate station between Parramatta and Redfern, say Strathfield, compared with eight or more stations on the metro, it's going to be significantly faster when you take into account the maximum service speed of the latest DD rolling stock of 130km/h compared with the likely maximum of 100km/h for the metro trains. The allegedly superior acceleration/deceleration performance of the metro trains over the DD Waratahs (they're actually almost identical) won't make up the time difference compared to the Waratahs being able to maintain their maximum speed for most of the journey with only one stop.  Even the current Mains with the one intermediate stop at Strathfield at its current leisurely pace would give the metro a run for its money, which would have at least eight intermediate stations, slowing down its average speed.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Getting back to your numbers Transtopic. The reason I put in the T2 via granville twice is because you mentioned it twice beforehand in regards to the suburbans and locals. 6 x T2 via granville is just not going to work. Canley Vale, Fairfield, Yennora, Guildford and Merrylands has 22,000 people in and 22,000 outs in 24 hours. Berala, Regents Park, Birrong, Yagoona, Sefton, Leightonfield, Villawood and Carramar only move 11,000 in and 11,000 out. You need to think of those numbers when thinking of reducing the T2 via granville to only 6 services an hour while giving 8 to the existing T3 lines. Via granville has 3 fewer stops but generates twice the traffic.

You are also not taking in to account the conflicting moves at Lidcombe which means you are definitely not getting 14 trains to any of the T2 / T3 destinations or the issues at the sefton triangle with shuttle T3 services fitting in post metro with your 8 via regents park services. Lets not forget adding T5 at Cabramatta. You seem to forget there was an actual reason for terminating at Lidcombe regardless of what restore inner west thinks.

You also seem to be forgetting that CCN services reduce the amount of services you can have on the mains as they cross at strathfield. It also doesn't matter how many platforms Central terminal has you aren't going to get 20 trains an hour in and out of the terminal from the mains plus the 4 trains or more from the south coast with all the conflicting moves in the yard. 16 is the best that you can get.
simstrain
I can't see where I mentioned T2 via Granville twice on the Suburbans and Locals.  I explicitly stated that T2 via Granville under my proposal would continue on the Suburbans along with T1 Blacktown (formally T2 Parramatta) and T9 across the Harbour Bridge, which would be a total of 20tph with the current signalling. The Locals from Homebush to the CBD would accommodate T2 Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park and the all-stoppers from Homebush.  Completion of the sextup between Homebush and Lidcombe would allow for the all-stoppers to be extended from Homebush to and from Bankstown, which would then be completely segregated from the Suburbans.

My reasoning for reducing the number of services from 8tph to 6tph on T2 via Granville and increasing services to 8tph for T2 via Regents Park, is that in the case of the former, I propose that T2 via Granville start/terminate at Liverpool and in the case of the latter, they start/terminate at Leppington and any extension thereof, which would provide a faster journey to the CBD compared with the route via Granville.  Bear in mind that the Cumberland Line would also provide additional services on the Liverpool to Parramatta sector.  

I would expect that most Leppington, Liverpool and Cabramatta commuters would prefer the faster route via Regents Park, aside from those who choose to travel to Bankstown to interchange to the metro.  This would free up capacity for the stations between Cabramatta and Granville.  If the balance doesn't meet the demand, then switch the frequencies to 6tph from Leppington/Liverpool via Regents Park and 8tph via Granville. In the case of the latter, the proposed 6tph for T1 Blacktown would have to be reduced to 4tph until such time as signalling is upgraded.

There would be minimal conflicting moves at Lidcombe, as it's a simple junction and not conflicting crossovers from one track pair to another.  With completion of the sextup, this would be eliminated.  Similarly, the CCN services merge with the Western Main at Strathfield, rather than creating crossover conflicts.  The Up CCN services are able to access Platform 1 at Strathfield, before merging with the Mains, without creating any conflict.

I find it implausible that Sydney Terminal could only accommodate 16tph with 14 terminating platforms.  Where is your source for this assertion, because I have never been able to get a definitive answer?  Perhaps there may be some of our fellow bloggers who can enlighten us.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

You also seem to be forgetting that CCN services reduce the amount of services you can have on the mains as they cross at strathfield. It also doesn't matter how many platforms Central terminal has you aren't going to get 20 trains an hour in and out of the terminal from the mains plus the 4 trains or more from the south coast with all the conflicting moves in the yard. 16 is the best that you can get.
I find it implausible that Sydney Terminal could only accommodate 16tph with 14 terminating platforms.  Where is your source for this assertion, because I have never been able to get a definitive answer?  Perhaps there may be some of our fellow bloggers who can enlighten us.
Transtopic

I think @sims meant 20tph through the yard throat (platforms 1&2 at Redfern), with 4tph from the South Coast leaving 16tph for the mains.

ATM all South Coast peak trains run via BJ

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