3801 Boiler and it's return to operation

 
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
THNSW has just emailed to its members a picture of a repainted 3801. It looks fabulous, almost too good to be true. The whiskers on the nose cone and side of the boiler seem to be a deeper gold than before, but I'm not going to quibble about that. Also, the green seems a bit deeper than before although not as deep as 3830; but sometimes you can't always tell from a photo. I wonder if these are closer to the original colours after it was repainted from grey in about 1947.
Its interesting with the brass/bronze like yellow whiskers and linings, also how thin they are as well.  There are some coloured photo's around that do show some had thinner whiskers but in general, they were still a bit more separated on the nose and side of the boiler area's. Some including 02 had a thicker whisker and lining, which was also in the same colour & paint that 01 was painted in when it came out of Cardiff after its 60's RTS.

Personally though, I do not like the colour of the whiskers, and would prefer the more chrome yellow that was the most common, and a bit more separated and thicker.
a6et
The colour of the yellow lining maybe a consequense of post processing also. The red buffer beam is very vivid in the photo.

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  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
I see numerous people in the comments saying that the new shade of green is special green, can anyone who worked on the 38s possibly confirm if it is indeed special green or another type
  NSW3802 Locomotive Driver

THNSW has just emailed to its members a picture of a repainted 3801. It looks fabulous, almost too good to be true. The whiskers on the nose cone and side of the boiler seem to be a deeper gold than before, but I'm not going to quibble about that. Also, the green seems a bit deeper than before although not as deep as 3830; but sometimes you can't always tell from a photo. I wonder if these are closer to the original colours after it was repainted from grey in about 1947.
Its interesting with the brass/bronze like yellow whiskers and linings, also how thin they are as well.  There are some coloured photo's around that do show some had thinner whiskers but in general, they were still a bit more separated on the nose and side of the boiler area's. Some including 02 had a thicker whisker and lining, which was also in the same colour & paint that 01 was painted in when it came out of Cardiff after its 60's RTS.

Personally though, I do not like the colour of the whiskers, and would prefer the more chrome yellow that was the most common, and a bit more separated and thicker.
a6et
I have 3802's builders plate and it is interesting to see the green paint that dribbled down between the cab and the builders plate. As it has been well protected from the weather etc. The interesting part is there is a section of a very light green colour and a section of the more common darker green. The darker green is also around the edges of the plate. I know this isn't a very good test but on the Humbrol paint chart the darker green comes somewhere near Humbrol 30, dark green  and 120 light green.

When I get a chance I will take the plate into the Hardware store and see what colours they can determine as a match.

Les.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

I see numerous people in the comments saying that the new shade of green is special green, can anyone who worked on the 38s possibly confirm if it is indeed special green or another type
DCook
The colour was matched off paint found during the overhaul (in areas previously covered) as well as from items off several other 38 class. The colour was termed "engine special green" by the NSWGR and the colour is as close a match to that as possible.

As the last of the 38 (except 3813) were painted black around 1955 there are going to be very few alive who worked on them and have a clear recollection of the colour.

The livery is based n early 1950s colour photos of the various streamliners.

Craig W
  a6et Minister for Railways

And some more shots, deep in enemy territory:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6FqgGfondc
After just watching this video, I rest my case regarding the sound of a 38cl whistle, especially that of O1 on this tour when compared to how it is/was on the trials this year.  Of note also is the difference in 30's whistle as well.
I know this was discussed earlier, but I can't recall which you preferred.  I prefer 3830's more deep throated version, which is what I typically remember in the era.  3801's whistle in the video is a bit too high pitched for me.  It's a bit like the difference between a tenor and a baritone, the latter which I also prefer.
Transtopic
If you go to some of the other video's and the one of 3810, I think in the Belbin video at Hawkesbury River that along with the one I mention above is pretty much the most general/normal pitch of the 38cl chime whistle. What distorts the 01 sound is the length of the whistle operation.

I have a tape recording of 01 taken back in 1964/65, I was in the Guards van of a shortish pick up train from Orange to Dubbo, where the whistle valve played up mid section, on arrival at Eucharena, the fireman with Cotton waste stuck in his ears got out and turned the main valve off to stop the whistle from blowing.  The tape is an older reel to reel type but its very clear and the same as on 10 in the video and 01 in the tour operation.

Like the garratt whistle that on the 38's in particular had many differences, but overall the chime is as per the tour and at Hawkesbury river.  Lack of maintenance and wear of the chimes makes a difference, and not confined to those two classes either.  I have a tape of 3802 that received the whistle off 3814, that if anyone here heard the sound, few would believe it. If anyone has a tape of 02 working the first of the triple headers from Central to Moss Vale with 3268 as the assistant engine, then they would know what I mean.  The tour was supposed to have had a 53, & 55 ex central with a 50 from Unanderra, the two freighters were not lit up and Enfield in time, and the 32 and 38 was grabbed to work the tour in there place as both were in steam and pilot engines at Eveliegh.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I see numerous people in the comments saying that the new shade of green is special green, can anyone who worked on the 38s possibly confirm if it is indeed special green or another type
The colour was matched off paint found during the overhaul (in areas previously covered) as well as from items off several other 38 class. The colour was termed "engine special green" by the NSWGR and the colour is as close a match to that as possible.

As the last of the 38 (except 3813) were painted black around 1955 there are going to be very few alive who worked on them and have a clear recollection of the colour.

The livery is based n early 1950s colour photos of the various streamliners.

Craig W
CraigW
I have gone through books and photo's especially looking at the streamliners, & while I never worked on the job in the 50's & not a great number of colour photo's around to see how many variations in the colours of the green, of those photo's I have seen, and they are in various books, its very hard to determine the exact shade of green that each of the 5 had.  In saying that each of them I would suggest were painted pretty much in the same green colour.

Changes to the colour over time was the result of weathering affect created by heat in both the weather as well as that from the boiler but certainly the heat from the sun faded and changed them to a degree.  I worked with drivers who were at Eveliegh and during the early 50's and returned from WW2, they also told a common aspect of how those engines also had changes to the colour/shade of the green.  At that time the engines were mostly cleaned by dry wiping to remove any of the loose soot, & other grime, if time allowed for it, they were then cleaned using black oil, which had to be also wiped off, the black oil was able to loosen and clear the road grime better than mere dry wiping only.  When a special event was to take place and the paint work in good order, the last clean was using Piccaninni floor polish.  Similar polishes were used at Enfield on the 12, 13 & 17 class on vintage train working.

As such, the black oil did affect the general colour of the greens it also got into the casing sections as well, with them being accentuating the grime.  The above floor polish removed much more of the grime but from the drivers said it was not a pleasant job especially in summer.

Looking at the lining that was on them, none had from what I could see on the photo's anything close to what is now on 01, also the narrowness between the whiskers as per how 01 is now, was found on 01 & 03, while I could not find any clear photo's of 05, cannot comment there, on 02 & 04 each had wider lines and they were further apart than on 01 & 3, at the same degree as was found on 01 when it was turned out of Cardiff, also all that I could see was the much lighter chrome yellow as the linings.

The valance only had a ling along the bottom of it, and the top boiler line from the whisker continued to the cab side and then corresponded onto the tender at the same height.  Each of the engines appeared to all have black cylinders and none with green on them.


Over the years, including the 27 odd years as an engineman, with a big interest in modelling the NSWGR in an era that I was familiar with, especially after many of those drivers I worked with and some of the older guards, it gave me a real education as to how things were, and for the most part, the mid 60's were very similar to the 50's except for the progressive changes that took place, nothing like was witnessed in the 80's though.

During the time, one thing that I made decisions on was to purchase books, some that were available for the section in York st for publicity purpose, but moreso those that were gradually published over the years, especially those with colour photo's in them.  I also took my share of colour slides and movies at the time, I dare not imagine the cost over the years for those books, and I still buy any new edition that comes out especially where they show colour photo's in the 50's, these are invaluable for model research along with the aspect of a bit of reminiscing, when I see photo's of those I worked with and/or read the names, it brings back a lot to me. Also helps refresh my memory, but in many areas they are solid in my mind.

As steam died and at Enfield, not long after getting married I was called out to work a day job to Broadmeadow, I arrived at Delec and told I was meant to be at the steam depot. I went over there and there sitting for me was 5917, I found out the rostered fireman went sick, I was not told of this but on seeing the driver I understood the reason. This was the last 59cl working a goods train on the down from Enfield to Bmd, I did all the fireing with nil help from the driver.  At Enfield a fellow took a photo of the driver in his seat and me standing in the entry, I don't know who took the photo but I did get a small copy from whoever it was, it was only a small one, but would love to get a larger one, but have no idea of the person and if its still possible.
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

THNSW has just emailed to its members a picture of a repainted 3801. It looks fabulous, almost too good to be true. The whiskers on the nose cone and side of the boiler seem to be a deeper gold than before, but I'm not going to quibble about that. Also, the green seems a bit deeper than before although not as deep as 3830; but sometimes you can't always tell from a photo. I wonder if these are closer to the original colours after it was repainted from grey in about 1947.
Its interesting with the brass/bronze like yellow whiskers and linings, also how thin they are as well.  There are some coloured photo's around that do show some had thinner whiskers but in general, they were still a bit more separated on the nose and side of the boiler area's. Some including 02 had a thicker whisker and lining, which was also in the same colour & paint that 01 was painted in when it came out of Cardiff after its 60's RTS.

Personally though, I do not like the colour of the whiskers, and would prefer the more chrome yellow that was the most common, and a bit more separated and thicker.
I have 3802's builders plate and it is interesting to see the green paint that dribbled down between the cab and the builders plate. As it has been well protected from the weather etc. The interesting part is there is a section of a very light green colour and a section of the more common darker green. The darker green is also around the edges of the plate. I know this isn't a very good test but on the Humbrol paint chart the darker green comes somewhere near Humbrol 30, dark green  and 120 light green.

When I get a chance I will take the plate into the Hardware store and see what colours they can determine as a match.

Les.
NSW3802
I'll be interested to hear what you find out, I wonder whether the darker paint will be like 3830's. From my time at Enfield (1971-74) I recall some of the older volunteers saying that the streamliners were a lighter green than the non-streamlined 38s.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I'll be interested to hear what you find out, I wonder whether the darker paint will be like 3830's. From my time at Enfield (1971-74) I recall some of the older volunteers saying that the streamliners were a lighter green than the non-streamlined 38s.
"studdo"
Seeing the locos themselves, and on video I wondered whether my eyes were deceiving me. The unstreamlined locos always seemed darker.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Some great pictures of 3801 on the loopline and in the roundhouse with some new trial headboards

https://www.facebook.com/nswgrc38class/
  a6et Minister for Railways

I'll be interested to hear what you find out, I wonder whether the darker paint will be like 3830's. From my time at Enfield (1971-74) I recall some of the older volunteers saying that the streamliners were a lighter green than the non-streamlined 38s.
Seeing the locos themselves, and on video I wondered whether my eyes were deceiving me. The unstreamlined locos always seemed darker.
There is a lot of variations in the green colours overall, while the streamliners seemed to have one colour there has been the debate over the so called Verdant green which was what the streamliners were said to have, again the shade of green that 01 was painted in when returned to service after the mid 1966 overhaul at Cardiff, a shade it pretty much retained until now.

The same existed with the non streamliners, but the problem very much is the lack of colour photo's of them in the green era, much the same with the streamliners.  A good example is 3806 hauling a crimson and cream official train at Hawkesbury river following the new bridge being opened, it has a light green, very much the same as 3813 was painted in when sent to BMD for working during the popes visit, a clear photo of it is one of the books I have and IIRC in one of the Byways booklets.

There was a video on YouTube of that train but I can not find it anymore.

Over time 30 has been in various shades of green, as has 13, and 13 when overhauled at Cardiff came out in the same shade and sort of rendition as 01 was painted in, including the single yellow line on the valance bottom, and the single top yellow line along the boiler.

In the 38cl book there is a photo of 3806 while its B&W it can be seen as being a lighter colour than others, the pic is taken at Central station and shows the evidence of Eveleigh cleaning but does have nice amounts of grime on it. The driver looks wary of the photographer.

On another note, the round boilered geared 36cl that was on show at Central concourse in a clear case, and originally built by apprentices is said to be the standard green colour for NSW engines green painted engines. Twood appear to not be the case and probably used on the 36cl, with no colour pics of the 35cl, they appeared in B&W photo's to be a lighter shade.

In service, I have photo's of 13 in at least 3 variations of green, the last one being a dark Brunswick green, while 30 had a lighter shade of the same colour in its final years as well.

Since the aspect of what shade of green has raised its head on many occasions I have tried to find a reference point for them, and basically they seem to have in more recent times come up with the team Special Green, yet where is there a reference point to that colour?  In many cases colours were based on some of British standard paints, especially in the steam days as well as the lead paint core of them, which in itself changes the colours compared to todays paints, including house, commercial and industrial grade paints.

In the 36cl there is a stationary photo of a green 36 on the down line Cowan bank, with a set of clerestory roof carriages, its not a great photo to try and call the colour as its very much a smokebox on photo, but when using a magnifying glass to try and get closer without distortion, for me I would call it as a Deep Brunswick Green, the same as the apprentices model, and the same that 13 & 30 had at times in their lives.

The 35cl are another matter, but basing on B&W photo's, I feel fairly positive in saying they too had different shades as well.  As such, I am also convinced even with so called original paint chips of steam engines, can it be certain that the chip is actually 100% correct, as subsequent paint overs, along with the pre preparation of the loco's boiler casing reading for priming and final painting can not really be regarded as being the correct shade.

Finally, by the time the green paint era was suspended and the 38's went to Chullora for overhauls and repaints from what I find in photo's of the various engines, they show little of general care in regards to how they looked, even on AC trains, one photo of 3802 early on shows it in reasonable clean condition, even allowing for the slight areas of grime around the top streamlined casing.  Another photo (& both of these are undated) shows a very dirty green 3802, you cannot see the yellow stripes on the top side of the casing, nor around the air vents on the front of the casing, the top of the front pointed smokebox cover was ultra black with grime, the cylinders on it were affected by water stains, also the general body was quite dirty, the boiler side whiskers were partially visible.

Taking the green colour a step further, what was the green shade on the 32cl also how many were used on 1243 during its vintage train working?
  a6et Minister for Railways

I'll be interested to hear what you find out, I wonder whether the darker paint will be like 3830's. From my time at Enfield (1971-74) I recall some of the older volunteers saying that the streamliners were a lighter green than the non-streamlined 38s.
Seeing the locos themselves, and on video I wondered whether my eyes were deceiving me. The unstreamlined locos always seemed darker.
Valvegear
There is a lot of variations in the green colours overall, while the streamliners seemed to have one colour there has been the debate over the so called Verdant green which was what the streamliners were said to have, again the shade of green that 01 was painted in when returned to service after the mid 1966 overhaul at Cardiff, a shade it pretty much retained until now.

The same existed with the non streamliners, but the problem very much is the lack of colour photo's of them in the green era, much the same with the streamliners.  A good example is 3806 hauling a crimson and cream official train at Hawkesbury river following the new bridge being opened, it has a light green, very much the same as 3813 was painted in when sent to BMD for working during the popes visit, a clear photo of it is one of the books I have and IIRC in one of the Byways booklets.

There was a video on YouTube of that train but I can not find it anymore.

Over time 30 has been in various shades of green, as has 13, and 13 when overhauled at Cardiff came out in the same shade and sort of rendition as 01 was painted in, including the single yellow line on the valance bottom, and the single top yellow line along the boiler.

In the 38cl book there is a photo of 3806 while its B&W it can be seen as being a lighter colour than others, the pic is taken at Central station and shows the evidence of Eveleigh cleaning but does have nice amounts of grime on it. The driver looks wary of the photographer.

On another note, the round boilered geared 36cl that was on show at Central concourse in a clear case, and originally built by apprentices is said to be the standard green colour for NSW engines green painted engines. Twood appear to not be the case and probably used on the 36cl, with no colour pics of the 35cl, they appeared in B&W photo's to be a lighter shade.

In service, I have photo's of 13 in at least 3 variations of green, the last one being a dark Brunswick green, while 30 had a lighter shade of the same colour in its final years as well.

Since the aspect of what shade of green has raised its head on many occasions I have tried to find a reference point for them, and basically they seem to have in more recent times come up with the team Special Green, yet where is there a reference point to that colour?  In many cases colours were based on some of British standard paints, especially in the steam days as well as the lead paint core of them, which in itself changes the colours compared to todays paints, including house, commercial and industrial grade paints.

In the 36cl there is a stationary photo of a green 36 on the down line Cowan bank, with a set of clerestory roof carriages, its not a great photo to try and call the colour as its very much a smokebox on photo, but when using a magnifying glass to try and get closer without distortion, for me I would call it as a Deep Brunswick Green, the same as the apprentices model, and the same that 13 & 30 had at times in their lives.

The 35cl are another matter, but basing on B&W photo's, I feel fairly positive in saying they too had different shades as well.  As such, I am also convinced even with so called original paint chips of steam engines, can it be certain that the chip is actually 100% correct, as subsequent paint overs, along with the pre preparation of the loco's boiler casing reading for priming and final painting can not really be regarded as being the correct shade.

Finally, by the time the green paint era was suspended and the 38's went to Chullora for overhauls and repaints from what I find in photo's of the various engines, they show little of general care in regards to how they looked, even on AC trains, one photo of 3802 early on shows it in reasonable clean condition, even allowing for the slight areas of grime around the top streamlined casing.  Another photo (& both of these are undated) shows a very dirty green 3802, you cannot see the yellow stripes on the top side of the casing, nor around the air vents on the front of the casing, the top of the front pointed smokebox cover was ultra black with grime, the cylinders on it were affected by water stains, also the general body was quite dirty, the boiler side whiskers were partially visible.

Taking the green colour a step further, what was the green shade on the 32cl also how many were used on 1243 during its vintage train working?
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
I have no full knowledge about the different shades of green, but it seems that the green that is now on 3214 is extremely similar to that on 3526, 3801 and at one point 5461
I did read something saying that THNSW was trialing a new type of locomotive paint that was cheaper and water based on 3214 and 5461 in early 2018, just before 3526 was painted in an extremely similar livery
  georges Train Controller

It’s not easy seeing green. A few samples of green non-streamliners. Courtesy of Phil Belbin and others.  


The final one shows 3810 pulling the train for the official opening of the Hawkesbury River Bridge in 1946,


1958. 7.52; 3813 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PzDFh9Ue8s


1954. 4.08; 3808 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRGdocqY7E


1949. ; 5.35; 3809 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRGdocqY7E


1946. 7.50; 3810 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRGdocqY7E
  a6et Minister for Railways

It’s not easy seeing green. A few samples of green non-streamliners. Courtesy of Phil Belbin and others.  


The final one shows 3810 pulling the train for the official opening of the Hawkesbury River Bridge in 1946,


1958. 7.52; 3813 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PzDFh9Ue8s


1954. 4.08; 3808 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRGdocqY7E


1949. ; 5.35; 3809 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRGdocqY7E


1946. 7.50; 3810 on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VRGdocqY7E
georges
Thanks for posting those links, don't know why I forgot that it was 3810 on the official opening train for the bridge.  For some reason had 06 on my mind.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Thanks for posting those links, don't know why I forgot that it was 3810 on the official opening train for the bridge.  For some reason had 06 on my mind.

Probably because, like me, you recall the photos of the TESTING of the bridge where 3806 (and 3805) in green stood out among the other grey locomotives...

As to the colour of the green all of the views in these videos show a darker and more "olive" green than 3801 has been painted lately but maybe less "blue" than 3830's last colour scheme....

3801's colour now, as far as I can judge from photos and my own unreliable memory is similar to that applied in 1963. It is hard to judge a colour on a loco with soot and road dirt on it as was seen in most of the Belbin videos. I did go on 3801's first tour after repainting in 1963, but only took black and white photos.

I did get good shots of 3801 and 3830 as repainted for "Western Endeavour" in 1970, getting shots at Redfern as the train returned from its trial run to Picton. I think this was when the shade of green changed to the lighter, less olive tone familiar to us now.

I did get shots of 3830 before it was withdrawn, and I think the green that 3830 has now (or when last operating in tour service) matches that colour, although 3830 had a green smokebox for its last period in regular service.

Peter

  georges Train Controller

Thanks for posting those links, don't know why I forgot that it was 3810 on the official opening train for the bridge.  For some reason had 06 on my mind.
a6et
No problem. In addition to M636C's comment about weight testing, the video is called "NSW Railways 38 Class. Part 2, 3806-3810"

.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks for posting those links, don't know why I forgot that it was 3810 on the official opening train for the bridge.  For some reason had 06 on my mind.

Probably because, like me, you recall the photos of the TESTING of the bridge where 3806 (and 3805) in green stood out among the other grey locomotives...

As to the colour of the green all of the views in these videos show a darker and more "olive" green than 3801 has been painted lately but maybe less "blue" than 3830's last colour scheme....

3801's colour now, as far as I can judge from photos and my own unreliable memory is similar to that applied in 1963. It is hard to judge a colour on a loco with soot and road dirt on it as was seen in most of the Belbin videos. I did go on 3801's first tour after repainting in 1963, but only took black and white photos.

I did get good shots of 3801 and 3830 as repainted for "Western Endeavour" in 1970, getting shots at Redfern as the train returned from its trial run to Picton. I think this was when the shade of green changed to the lighter, less olive tone familiar to us now.

I did get shots of 3830 before it was withdrawn, and I think the green that 3830 has now (or when last operating in tour service) matches that colour, although 3830 had a green smokebox for its last period in regular service.

Peter

M636C
No disagreement in your comments Peter.   One of the areas that also affects the colour of the green is in relationship to where the sun is at the time of the photo being taken, likewise the type of colour film that is used.  I used various slide films such as Ecktachrome, standard Kodak, Ferrania, Anscochrome, Ilford, Agfa and Perutz, after some experiments I ended up using Perutz as the primary colour film owing to its generally better match of the colours around. And had very good reproduction as to the colours, especially if a loco such as 01, 13, 30, were spotted on trains, on dull days though one got another colour view of the engines.

I mentioned earlier regarding 13, and I have slides of it at Moss Vale and it shows very much a closeness to the darker Brunswick green in hi gloss finish.  As I reflect on the 3x38's that had green in their later years, each seem to have been painted in a slightly different shade, each time they were repainted.

One other aspect that I cannot comment on but on the current paint job on 01, its very much a high gloss paint, the bronze or gold strips to me look terrible, I don't like it at all, the other thing is the mini whiskers at the side of the top shroud, and how it extends round to the front but its not around the louvres at the front, rather its painted white.  I am not sure of the accuracy of that.

A separate add on here please, for some reason, I am not getting the usual notifications of new posts that are usual for those who subscribe to a thread, was working ok up to a week or so back.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Interesting that you mentioned 3806 earlier as in a picture that is stated to be the first colour NSWR picture you see 3806 in a very bright green, not a bright as 3801 used to be but much brighter than what it is now, with yellow lining and a grey 3801 behind it at Eveleigh workshops circa 1947. It looks just like 3810 on the Hawkesbury river bridge opening train minus the green smokebox

https://www.railpage.com.au/photos/23943
  a6et Minister for Railways

Looking in my book case today, I found one put out by the RTM in 1970, simply titled FLYER.  While there is some history aspects of the book, I would say its more a photographic tribute to the train, with the photo's as an overall covering the classes of loco's that worked the Flier from introduction but, with a heavy focus on the 38cl that worked the train. While there are few later day colour pics the vast majority naturally are B&W.

In the main the non streamlined 38's that were painted green, show some variations to the darkness/lightness as applied to them, I discount the green engines post 50's as there were only the 2 that were green and in different shades and application, they being 13 & 30.  O1 is the solitary green streamliner and again, there are some differences in the shade, post 63, 66 and later as well.  There are enough pics out there to show those changes.

Dealing with the non streamliners the book states that all of them as delivered and entered service painted green to start with, some with all green body and some with black smokebox, while hard to pick in the B&W photo's there is evidence of different shades though, not a lot of differences though but enough to indicate that more than one green colour was used.  In the photo's the cylinders all look to have gloss black painting of the cylinder outer covers, with twin narrow lines around the outside edges of them, making them look very boxy like, Colour?  Could be a combo of the yellow= straw and red which I have seen picks of.

The streamliners.  According to the book the first one to be painted green was 05 in 1946. The well photographed by the NSWGR publicity shows the Abatoirs line publicity photo along with the red & cream painted NCLE Exp colours, pre HUB set days.  First off I would suggest that the cylinder covers were painted in the same shade of green as the engine and tender bodies, I say that as the shades look the same.

The differences though & perhaps this is where the return of 01 and the narrow two lots of decorative whiskers is probably gotten its plans or inspiration from, of course the RTM/Heritage NSW may well have other documentation to supplement my thinking of it.  In the flier book there are 3 streamliners that are shown as green, 01, 02 & 05, of those 3 three, the only aspect of the whiskers that are common to one another is those on the top of the streamliners shroud, where they are close to each other and very much sit above the whistle line with the bottom and shortest of the 3 lines, the caveat to that is that 02 appears to have slightly thicker whiskers and a slight more gap between them and the bottom line sits in line with the top of the whistle, not much in it but is noticeable.

Coming to the primary body whiskers there is a difference here.  05 as I mentioned above has the whiskers sitting higher than those on 01 & 02, they are thinner with the top one going all the way along the boiler cab side to correspond with the 3 sided lines around the tender, that part is common to the other green streamliners. The bottom whisker sits much in line with the top of the marker lights maybe a fraction below the top of them, and the lines themselves are quite narrow as seen on 01 as it is painted now.

Going to 01 & 02 both of them have what appears to be the same colours, (quesstimation) based on they appear to have the cylinder covers painted the same as the engine & tender but no lines on them as per since the 60's.  The primary other areas that are pretty much identical are the whiskers on both engines being pretty much the same, they are both thicker as well as more apart than found on 05 and as shown on it at the Abatoirs branch, in these two loco's the bottom whisker passes slightly above the bottom of the marker lights, leaving a much larger spacing than we see on 01 today.  The other aspect is the whiskers are much more yellow, either chrome or a straw yellow.

I have not seen photo's of 03 & 04 in green livery but I would believe they would be like 01 & 02.

Finally, and its like throwing a cow pat at a bull, in the Flier book there are two photo's of 05 in green on the Hawkesbury river bridge, one taken likely from the old bridge and fits 05 leading 07 out onto the new bridge and the whiskers appear to be the same as taken on the Abatotirs brand, the previous page shows though shows, 05 on the down track and 02 next to it on the up line.  In this photo, the whiskers seem to have changed on 05, while they are each the same thickness, there is a wider spacing of them especially with the two lower & shorter ones.

That may be more a result of the angle of the photograph when compared to others.

I guess if we had a time machine we could go back and confirm areas where there appears to be variations on a theme that really are hard to confirm, without colour photo's to make a realistic opinion on how it was.


On a slightly different path, and for the information of all, in the flier book there are some photo's in that show different combo's of engines than just the 38cl, there are some with 35 & 36cl, along with each of the 3 clases working together in different combinations, this raises a rhetorical question of when a double header in the steam area, which engine is meant/supposed to lead.

The basic rule that applied was hook to hook or auto to Auto.  As the 38's in the 60's slowly all got auto's on the tenders, with 30 the last to get one, as the Hub sets had auto's at the terminal carriage, which meant that if only one of the loco's had an auto on the tender it had to attach to the train, which had the auto, leaving the 35 or Pig to lead. When some of the 35's got the Turret tenders and worked as the 2nd engine behind a pig or 38, the 35cl went on to the train, as the other rule came into being, that was the 38cl had the greater capacity air pump and therefore had to lead.  Same with the 36cl as it had a larger capacity single phase pump than the 35.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

I generally agree with the above. As long as the RTM has existed there has always been the question as to what was the true shade of green for a 38. Because paint fades, is darkened by black oil used for cleaning, and photographs fade too, not to mention the colour response of various colour film, looking at old photographs is a bit misleading. It would be better if the paint had a manufacture's colour code but it seems this may be lost, or never existed. Even back in the 1960s, the green 38s were all different shades.
I think it might be a futile exercise looking for the right colour.
Thanks for making mention of how engines were arranged when double heading, I had not considered coupler types before.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
THNSW just released the promotional video earlier today and it is just stunning, some good shots of it being oiled and steamed in the roundhouse and turntable as well as some good footage of it on the loopline
https://www.facebook.com/TransportHeritageNSW/videos/535426397405491
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
You're right, DCook; the video is very well done and the engine looks superb. It's been a long time coming, but now the only hold up is outside everybody's control.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
It would be better if the paint had a manufacture's colour code but it seems this may be lost, or never existed.
neillfarmer
A great pity the recent NSWGR in Colour book didn't include a list of the colours they found from old rolling stock paint chips, matched to a recent colour code table.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

It would be better if the paint had a manufacture's colour code but it seems this may be lost, or never existed.
A great pity the recent NSWGR in Colour book didn't include a list of the colours they found from old rolling stock paint chips, matched to a recent colour code table.
apw5910
If you have a sample wet or dry, it’s not difficult.
Colour names/descriptions are open to interpretation. What is olive green?
Numbers for accuracy.

https://www.pantone-colours.com/
  a6et Minister for Railways

I generally agree with the above. As long as the RTM has existed there has always been the question as to what was the true shade of green for a 38. Because paint fades, is darkened by black oil used for cleaning, and photographs fade too, not to mention the colour response of various colour film, looking at old photographs is a bit misleading. It would be better if the paint had a manufacture's colour code but it seems this may be lost, or never existed. Even back in the 1960s, the green 38s were all different shades.
I think it might be a futile exercise looking for the right colour.
Thanks for making mention of how engines were arranged when double heading, I had not considered coupler types before.
neillfarmer
Neil, in many ways looking at the B&W photo's in the Flier book was easier especially for the streamliners, the main aspect that they appeared to pick up and I am not convinced totally though is that the cylinder covers appeared to be of the same tone as the loco itself.

There are some very good colour photo's of 3802 in one of the books I have, that certainly do not show any sign of green on its cylinders, both in an early pic and another one where it has a lot of road grime and poor water stains.

As mentioned previously, all I ever heard in regards to the green paint for 38cl was that Verdant Green was the standard for them, yet trying to find such a colour also brings up a huge variation of that colour.  The other aspects include the points that lead based paint as used in the 50's and going forward many years added a different shade to a colour, then there is the light/sun angle of a photo which makes things different, likewise the affect of the sun on the loco's during daylight on long trips, such as the Sydney - Albury daylight services would have helped fading of the green.

On another note regarding the coupling and positioning of loco's on double heading was when a 32 was used, they were not to lead, and must be marshalled behind the leading locomotive.

In the Western WTT of 1965 there is a note that has a clause that a locomotive fitted with the swing auto type couplers on the tenders were not to be used on Passenger trains.  Another one was a bet each way.  49 Forbes mail is to be worked by a 36cl with automatic draw gear between Parkes & Forbes, however if no such loco was available then a 36 with hook coupling may be used.

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