Baxter Electrification

 
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Why electrify to the depot? Just use a 2 car diesel to shuttle trains between Frankston and Baxter. It works in Adelaide.
62440
because pork barreling to win elections combined with bureaucratic logic

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  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Rode The Down 9.11 Service today around 10 pax and an average speed of 85km with exceptions for the farmers driveway crossings, Did not see any one get on heading down passengers only disembarked at Hastings, Bitten, Tyabb and Crib point. One must wonder what the subsidy is for this cute service. On weekday mornings and Afternoons however I see that the service is around 70-80% full with people constantly boarding and disembarking at the majority of the stations
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Labor candidate for Dunkley spruiking today that they'll fund Baxter if elected.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Some recent press https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/baxter-rail-extension-at-a-standstill
I do wonder why this is taking a long time is it being delivered by V/Line or Metro Trains?
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Some recent press https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/baxter-rail-extension-at-a-standstill
I do wonder why this is taking a long time is it being delivered by V/Line or Metro Trains?
bevans
You might be waiting awhile Bevans as there is currently no project being delivered by anyone.

All that has happened is there is a business case that has been prepared by the State Government which is currently being assessed by the Federal Government.

https://transport.vic.gov.au/getting-around/public-transport/baxter-electrification-business-case

Ross
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The funding for the project would have (one would expect) have been agreed.  Why does Victoria feel the need to constantly reach out to the feds for rail which not only should have been done years ago but should be funded by the vic government?

The idea of duplication is not as important in my mind as electrification and high frequency from the electrification.  If we can do Hurstbridge trains on a single line section then why can;t we do Baxter and beyond?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The funding for the project would have (one would expect) have been agreed.  Why does Victoria feel the need to constantly reach out to the feds for rail which not only should have been done years ago but should be funded by the vic government?

The idea of duplication is not as important in my mind as electrification and high frequency from the electrification.  If we can do Hurstbridge trains on a single line section then why can;t we do Baxter and beyond?
bevans

Sometimes it does help have the feds coming to the table and contributing to rail. For example regional rail link wouldn't have gotten off the ground if there were no collaboration btw state and federal governments. In fact the Cranbourne electrification project was helped by having federal contributions.

Baxter railway is only making more economical sense in recent years than it was lets say 20-30 years ago. The area has grown slowly over time. Saying it should of been done years ago is misleading.

You've been mistaken about electrification increasing the frequency when this is not the case always. Duplication always for higher frequencies and allows more reliable journey times. Electrification can mean cheaper costs for frequent services and a faster service, not always allows more frequent service if there are too many single track sections.

Using the Hurstbridge line is actually a quite poor example, since we all know at the ends of the Hurstbridge line it has a piss poor frequency and reliability as well as most of the outer parts are redundant. Which is why that line has been receiving duplication over the years to make that line at least somewhat more reliable and useful.

The fact there is a train service at all past Baxter is incredible, it's the only regular running branch railway to survive (in Victoria, correct me if I'm wrong) and is lucky to still be running in modern times.
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
The fact there is a train service at all past Baxter is incredible, it's the only regular running branch railway to survive (in Victoria, correct me if I'm wrong) and is lucky to still be running in modern times.
True Believers
True Believers is correct about lucky to survive, since the passenger service was actually axed for just over three years in 1981 and the line closed beyond Long Island junction for that same period. Without the Long Island steel trains it is highly unlikely that it would have ever reopened; just look at the Mornington line, closed at the same time and now a tourist railway on a stub of the original (not knocking MRPS, just stating a fact).
With a service capable of being run by one Sprinter it doesn't say much for patronage/demand. Baxter, it has been said before on this thread IIRC, is purely about a train maintenance facility and stabling siding capacity. Granted Leawarra and Langwarrin station sites could generate a decent patronage with a frequent service but past those spots, not a lot.

Neil
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
If the work is only about stabling then what is the problem being solved?  There is already stabling available at Frankston.

Further, having a property down that way for years the lack of dependable passenger services IS the major problem to do with patronage.  If there were more and frequent trains then it would be used more.

Sadly the catchment side (Red Hill) no linger exists.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Further, having a property down that way for years the lack of dependable passenger services IS the major problem to do with patronage. If there were more and frequent trains then it would be used more.
Bevans
Are you admitting to being a landlord?

Sadly the catchment side (Red Hill) no linger exists.
Bevans
ah yes, an area where the busses are so heavily patronised, traffic is overblowing and people are crying for a rail service...

The fact there is a train service at all past Baxter is incredible, it's the only regular running branch railway to survive (in Victoria, correct me if I'm wrong) and is lucky to still be running in modern times.
True Believers
Probably the last in the country. And in case you're wondering that line gets sufficient traffic up to Bitten thanks to urban sprawl and the park and riders from the southern peninsula. Its only still running thanks to a successful community campaign that poked holes in the report that said to close it. Its more lucky to have a community that fought to keep it... the Long Island steel isn't the only reason. Beyond Bitten its just  there to not lose votes.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
If the work is only about stabling then what is the problem being solved?  There is already stabling available at Frankston.
bevans
mmm !

that's a bit like "why bother with Pakenham East, there's already stabling at Dandenong".

Baxter is needed in the longer term for the same reasons,  just that the Dandy line is a few more years advanced.

cheers
John
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
John, Packenham East is also a maintenance base.  Baxter is not I believe?
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
John, Packenham East is also a maintenance base.  Baxter is not I believe?
bevans
Maintenance, let's see.

Newport, Calder, Craigeburn, Epping, Bayswater, Pakenham. A pattern of moving out has been going on.

Is their a major line missing ? Oh yeah Frankston. Where do they fix their trains.

Read back this thread, Maintenance AND Stabling is a common observation.

cheers
John
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

@bevans

Sometimes you do make me laugh. As has been mentioned, the major reason for Baxter is not for the overwhelming patronage. But for the available land for a maintenance facility.

Frankston station it’s self is a mess. The other catalyst is urban renewal. Which is what is taking place is Dandenong. Council does not want a dozen trains parked right in the middle of Frankston. The entire station precinct is slated for renewal, with the station building and Young Street already completed. Removing the stabling yard that sits between the retail and education precincts is the final piece of the puzzle. Park and ride is also mentioned to be built out at Frankston South, removing the associated rail parking in Frankston; reducing traffic & freeing up space for those retail and education users.

The other major issue with Frankston Station is that of operations. Terminating trains at Frankston can not access the adjacent yard. Terminating services need to run empty to Kananook to stable. Services that terminate at Kananook run empty to access the Frankston yard. An absolute bloody mess.

Lastly back to Maintenance, there is nothing on the Frankston line. So Xtraps need to go to Newport, Comengs & Siemens go to Craigieburn or Westall for works. Nothing at this stage has been mentioned about the future of Westall, however I can’t see it servicing Comengs for much longer when the line is serviced by HCMTS. Another bloody mess.

In short, extending to Baxter has very little to do with improving frequency or services. It is primarily solving dozens of operational issues. Many of these must be done before MM1 when the network is broken up and we start too see increased frequencies.

Lockie
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I hope they don't electrify to Baxter in my lifetime; I don't think I could cope with the excitement.  I can still remember the electrification from Broadmeadows to Craigieburn. It took an inordinately long time, and was celebrated by a gala official opening complete with mug shots of pollies galore. It was such a hullabaloo that you'd be forgiven for thinking that they'd electrified all the way to Badaginnie. Too many more successes like that would be the end of me.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Guys we need to get serious.  There may be a plan to move out of frankston which will deliver no benefit at all for passengers on the Stony point line (this is not the first time millions has been spent on projects which delivery zero passenger benefit) but the fact still remains the service to Stony Point needs to be electrified and made an extension of the Frankston line with through running services.  What we are going to now run sprinters between Baxter and Stony Point?
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
I hope they don't electrify to Baxter in my lifetime; I don't think I could cope with the excitement.  I can still remember the electrification from Broadmeadows to Craigieburn. It took an inordinately long time, and was celebrated by a gala official opening complete with mug shots of pollies galore. It was such a hullabaloo that you'd be forgiven for thinking that they'd electrified all the way to Badaginnie. Too many more successes like that would be the end of me.
Valvegear
I was attending school at Macleod High when the duplication from Macleod to Greensborough was undertaken and completed. Probably took about two years including digging out a huge amount of material for the cutting though Watsonia. I don't recall anything major happening when it was opened, although I did enjoy seeing double headed New X, fresh off the Overland, on the ballast trains

Neil
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Lastly back to Maintenance, there is nothing on the Frankston line. So Xtraps need to go to Newport, Comengs & Siemens go to Craigieburn or Westall for works. Nothing at this stage has been mentioned about the future of Westall, however I can’t see it servicing Comengs for much longer when the line is serviced by HCMTS. Another bloody mess.
Lockie91
Lockie,

I have aready penciled in Westall to look after the maintenance for SRL coming out of the tunnel at Clayton(ish),
whatever rolling stock they end up with.

cheers
John
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Guys we need to get serious.  There may be a plan to move out of frankston which will deliver no benefit at all for passengers on the Stony point line (this is not the first time millions has been spent on projects which delivery zero passenger benefit) but the fact still remains the service to Stony Point needs to be electrified and made an extension of the Frankston line with through running services.  What we are going to now run sprinters between Baxter and Stony Point?
bevans
And what is wrong with that exactly.

Reduced run time from 36 minutes, to 25.

That gives the scope for an hourly service on the line, without any need for track improvement nor rolling stock.

A huge improvement for little effort. What was that about passenger benefit?

cheers
John
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Let's give up worrying about Baxter. Instead, why not electrify Belgrave to Gembrook?
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Let's give up worrying about Baxter. Instead, why not electrify Belgrave to Gembrook?
Valvegear
Are we fitting a pantograph and electric boiler to the kettles or putting narrow guage bogies under an Xtrap?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Let's give up worrying about Baxter. Instead, why not electrify Belgrave to Gembrook?
Valvegear

I have been quite serious a bout the need to remove dated diesel services from the Stony Point Line as have others on the forum over a period.  Out of sight out of mind.  Look at the money wasted on the WYN stabling.  This could have easily removed diesel trains from the line.
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
Let's give up worrying about Baxter. Instead, why not electrify Belgrave to Gembrook?

I have been quite serious a bout the need to remove dated diesel services from the Stony Point Line as have others on the forum over a period.  Out of sight out of mind.  Look at the money wasted on the WYN stabling.  This could have easily removed diesel trains from the line.
bevans
WYN stabling currently holds diesel trains, but was constructed with electric trains in mind. They've even got poles installed for overhead wires. Whenever Wyndham Vale gets sparks, the electric trains will be parked at this facility.

WYN stabling is the very definition of forwards planning. It benefits not just current diesel services, but future electric services as well.

On the topic of Stony Point, how many people actually use Stony Point station? I'd wager a hand full of people daily, and Crib Point station wouldn't be much better.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Ideally, and perhaps as originally intended, Stony Point trains should connect with the ferry to provide PT to Phillip Island.  Doesn't work that way though.  If the services were co-ordinated, and IF the ferry used myki, would there be more pax using Stony Point?
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
Ideally, and perhaps as originally intended, Stony Point trains should connect with the ferry to provide PT to Phillip Island.  Doesn't work that way though.  If the services were co-ordinated, and IF the ferry used myki, would there be more pax using Stony Point?
Lad_Porter
Potentially, but even switching the ferries over to myki is a big ask. The Westgate Punt doesn't use myki either, and that has a fare that is effectively a zone 2 price; $2.70 per weekday trip.

Realistically, unless we want to encourage urban sprawl into the Mornington and Western Port areas, it is unlikely that patronage will exceed the capacity of a bus service.

I've seen proposals by Mornington Peninsula Shire to extend the electrified service to Hastings, which is itself very ambitious. But even the LGA knows that an electrified service to Stony Point is a waste.

https://www.mornpen.vic.gov.au/About-Us/News-Media-Publications/Initiatives/Electrification-of-rail-to-Hastings

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