3801 Boiler and it's return to operation

 
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
13 actually was in the LES in a dismantled state and work had been fairly well advanced on it when Shirley went in for his first inspection of the place, when he saw the work on 13 being carried out on it, he enquired as to what was going on with it, the reply was that it the former Commissioner, Neil McCusker had approved the overhaul of the engine for rail tours, money and workers had been allocated for the work, basically it was a farewell gift to the railways and a legacy for them.

Shirley started as Chief Commissioner 20th October 1972 and finished in 1st December 1975.
a6et
Minor time line matter. Shirley replaced McCusker October 1972, so I wonder if it was really Shirley's first trip to the LES, remembering I saw 3813 with its RTM train in Brisbane in January 1973. Either that or his first visit to the LES was February / March 1973?

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  studdo Locomotive Fireman

It is very hard to believe that we have someone like Howard Collins, a heritage enthusiast, is in basically the same position that Shirley was 45 years ago

What a contrast
Someone else may be able to expand, IIRC, the ZZR at Lithgow was unable to source standard gauge rolling stock from the NSWGR.
Hence the narrow gauge, mostly from Queensland.
They commenced operators in 1976? Putting Shirley in the big chair at the time.
As for terminating the advanced overhaul of 3813, >_]
michaelgm
The reason that ZZR couldn't source standard gauge locomotives and rolling stock was that Neil McCusker considered the RTM as the official NSW rail museum and he wouldn't allow anyone else to get anything, so ZZR had to go narrow gauge. ZZR weren't the only ones, LVR were also denied NSWGR rolling stock. It all changed when Shirley took over - he'd sell anything to anyone prepared to pay. For ZZR it was too late, they'd already committed to narrow gauge (at least that's what I understand); narrow gauge was probably cheaper anyway.
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: Banned
The other positive side effect of Zig Zag using 1067mm was that they were able to acquire a fleet of relatively modern locomotives with good boilers (934 and 218A were the only ex QR locos on the roster not equipped with roller bearings for example). The DD17 was ideal for the operation hence why three were purchased.

Had the ZZR purchased ex NSW locos of comparable size and power (30, 32, Standard Goods etc) they’d have inherited far older, much more maintenance intensive locos with boilers in nowhere near as good a condition as what they were able to source (including spares) from QLD.

It’s also worth keeping in mind that Zig Zag was and still is a tourist railway. It wasn’t established as a preservation group for NSW equipment. Further, earlier in the society’s life it hoped to acquire locomotives from other narrow gauge states as well (in the same way Bellarine did) in addition to 402. WAGR W classes, TGR H classes etc were all looked at. (Zig Zag was even offered Silverton Tramway W classes but their boiler condition made the idea impractical). The idea of acquiring more locos from interstate was only thwarted by the cost of transport as was the acquisition of further withdrawn QR equipment (C16 38, B18 1/4 843 and D17 855 were all offered to Zig Zag at the time 934 and 1072 were purchased. They were only knocked back because of the prohibitive transport costs). At one stage members were even looking into how to acquire one of the Indonesian Mallets for the railway.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The reason that ZZR couldn't source standard gauge locomotives and rolling stock was that Neil McCusker considered the RTM as the official NSW rail museum and he wouldn't allow anyone else to get anything, so ZZR had to go narrow gauge. ZZR weren't the only ones, LVR were also denied NSWGR rolling stock. It all changed when Shirley took over - he'd sell anything to anyone prepared to pay. For ZZR it was too late, they'd already committed to narrow gauge (at least that's what I understand); narrow gauge was probably cheaper anyway.
Studdo

The late Ian Thornton was the big pusher for the ZZR, he & I were good friends and did steam photography trips together during the 60's, around 1967/68 he along with myself and two others met in his Parents home at Hornsby and he raised the idea of the ZZR at that meeting.  The discussion included the idea of what was needed to run trains, not just the trackwork but also the train, meaning loco's and carriages. It was a big call, but he was quite determined and the project he proposed was already at that time in the formation.

As time went on he came back and said the cost to purchase any items from the NSWGR was going to be too expensive, as prices quoted to him for a couple of loco's and carriages was a killer. He and a couple of others went to SA, to see what was available there from their narrow gauge operations, which included the SAR garratts. In 1969 he, along with one other person and I headed to QLD, we combined the trip to go to the sugar cane areas at Mackay and depots at Rockhampton. Ian noted the numbers of narrow gauge engines in VG condition and deemed suitable for the ZZR venture.

His initial concept included the purchase of a DDR tank, BB pacifics and would continue to look at the SAR garratt. I moved from Enfield in late 69 to go to Werris Creek which meant I resigned from that working party.  The last I had contact with Ian on the venture was news he sent out regarding the items purchased and reserved for the ZZR, by that time they had received approval for the work at ZZ to commence.

One very big consideration was the loco's he looked at had roller bearing rather than oil bearings, also having NG trains, meant they could source rail at lower rating, also the aspect of sleepers, and the loading gauge of the loco's and carriages was much less than SG items, allowing for a better working through the tunnels and bridges as all were lighter and posed less risk overall.

The reality is that SG items were never a serious consideration, our trip to Mackay also meant we saw the last of steam operations in that region, also a trip to the Brisbane Valley with steam at an end there as well. At that time there were still a fair need for SG steam until Shirley arrived and same with Carriages, it would have cost a lot more to get loco's and R/S and would have had to hand pick what loco's were in reasonable enough condition and how they would last and fit the ZZR in regard to loading and the like.
studdo
  a6et Minister for Railways

13 actually was in the LES in a dismantled state and work had been fairly well advanced on it when Shirley went in for his first inspection of the place, when he saw the work on 13 being carried out on it, he enquired as to what was going on with it, the reply was that it the former Commissioner, Neil McCusker had approved the overhaul of the engine for rail tours, money and workers had been allocated for the work, basically it was a farewell gift to the railways and a legacy for them.

Shirley started as Chief Commissioner 20th October 1972 and finished in 1st December 1975.
Minor time line matter. Shirley replaced McCusker October 1972, so I wonder if it was really Shirley's first trip to the LES, remembering I saw 3813 with its RTM train in Brisbane in January 1973. Either that or his first visit to the LES was February / March 1973?
petan
Petan, interesting indeed.  I know that I saw 13 in a knocked down condition but was told by the fitters there that it was all but complete, the date I saw it at the LES escapes me, as by 1973, I was driving as well as having been trained for chargeman's duties at Delec by that time, and as time went on only times I was out driving was on Weekends and did not get to the LES at that time.

The news regarding Shirley's inspection and order to get it out came through to us at Delec in the afternoon of the order, which was late in the day.  The primary element though is that McCusker had made provision and costings to cover 13's full overhaul and restoration, and should never have been stopped, perhaps & I don't know but its probable that when 13 got back from Brisbane on that tour, it was sent straight to the LES for the work to be carried out.

I had a lot of paperwork that was in a large bowls type bag, including trip reports and the like, but it went missing following our move from WCK in 1990, after I had finished by then owing to medical retirement.

While its now totally irrelevant I guess, I could never understand not just the order to stop the overhaul as it was near completion and wasted money which had been allocated for the work, but why was the parts taken down and put into the S Trucks also the frame, boiler and Tender sent to Clyde wagon works were they all sat out in the weather for some time, not helping the condition at all, rather had it gone to Enfield loco depot the items could have at least been protected until that too came under Shirleys condemnation order.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
13 actually was in the LES in a dismantled state and work had been fairly well advanced on it when Shirley went in for his first inspection of the place, when he saw the work on 13 being carried out on it, he enquired as to what was going on with it, the reply was that it the former Commissioner, Neil McCusker had approved the overhaul of the engine for rail tours, money and workers had been allocated for the work, basically it was a farewell gift to the railways and a legacy for them.

Shirley started as Chief Commissioner 20th October 1972 and finished in 1st December 1975.
Minor time line matter. Shirley replaced McCusker October 1972, so I wonder if it was really Shirley's first trip to the LES, remembering I saw 3813 with its RTM train in Brisbane in January 1973. Either that or his first visit to the LES was February / March 1973?
Petan, interesting indeed.  I know that I saw 13 in a knocked down condition but was told by the fitters there that it was all but complete, the date I saw it at the LES escapes me, as by 1973, I was driving as well as having been trained for chargeman's duties at Delec by that time, and as time went on only times I was out driving was on Weekends and did not get to the LES at that time.

The news regarding Shirley's inspection and order to get it out came through to us at Delec in the afternoon of the order, which was late in the day.  The primary element though is that McCusker had made provision and costings to cover 13's full overhaul and restoration, and should never have been stopped, perhaps & I don't know but its probable that when 13 got back from Brisbane on that tour, it was sent straight to the LES for the work to be carried out.

I had a lot of paperwork that was in a large bowls type bag, including trip reports and the like, but it went missing following our move from WCK in 1990, after I had finished by then owing to medical retirement.

While its now totally irrelevant I guess, I could never understand not just the order to stop the overhaul as it was near completion and wasted money which had been allocated for the work, but why was the parts taken down and put into the S Trucks also the frame, boiler and Tender sent to Clyde wagon works were they all sat out in the weather for some time, not helping the condition at all, rather had it gone to Enfield loco depot the items could have at least been protected until that too came under Shirleys condemnation order.
a6et
Writing about a new General Manager Beeching put in charge of the BR Western Region, (S.E. Raymond), O.S. Nock writes in "Tales of the Great Western, page 172:

"But there are more ways of effecting a shake-up than by antagonizing everyone in sight, and by bringing in another hard-bitten, humourless alien as his deputy. Apart from Beeching, to whom another WR General Manager always referred to as 'the Great and Good Doctor' there was another harsh influence at 222 Marylebone Road in the Vice-Chairman, Philip Shirley, whose one idea of making the railways pay would seem to have been to close everything down!"

A gentleman like O.S. Nock putting the boot in says volumes...
  a6et Minister for Railways

13 actually was in the LES in a dismantled state and work had been fairly well advanced on it when Shirley went in for his first inspection of the place, when he saw the work on 13 being carried out on it, he enquired as to what was going on with it, the reply was that it the former Commissioner, Neil McCusker had approved the overhaul of the engine for rail tours, money and workers had been allocated for the work, basically it was a farewell gift to the railways and a legacy for them.

Shirley started as Chief Commissioner 20th October 1972 and finished in 1st December 1975.
Minor time line matter. Shirley replaced McCusker October 1972, so I wonder if it was really Shirley's first trip to the LES, remembering I saw 3813 with its RTM train in Brisbane in January 1973. Either that or his first visit to the LES was February / March 1973?
Petan, interesting indeed.  I know that I saw 13 in a knocked down condition but was told by the fitters there that it was all but complete, the date I saw it at the LES escapes me, as by 1973, I was driving as well as having been trained for chargeman's duties at Delec by that time, and as time went on only times I was out driving was on Weekends and did not get to the LES at that time.

The news regarding Shirley's inspection and order to get it out came through to us at Delec in the afternoon of the order, which was late in the day.  The primary element though is that McCusker had made provision and costings to cover 13's full overhaul and restoration, and should never have been stopped, perhaps & I don't know but its probable that when 13 got back from Brisbane on that tour, it was sent straight to the LES for the work to be carried out.

I had a lot of paperwork that was in a large bowls type bag, including trip reports and the like, but it went missing following our move from WCK in 1990, after I had finished by then owing to medical retirement.

While its now totally irrelevant I guess, I could never understand not just the order to stop the overhaul as it was near completion and wasted money which had been allocated for the work, but why was the parts taken down and put into the S Trucks also the frame, boiler and Tender sent to Clyde wagon works were they all sat out in the weather for some time, not helping the condition at all, rather had it gone to Enfield loco depot the items could have at least been protected until that too came under Shirleys condemnation order.
Writing about a new General Manager Beeching put in charge of the BR Western Region, (S.E. Raymond), O.S. Nock writes in "Tales of the Great Western, page 172:

"But there are more ways of effecting a shake-up than by antagonizing everyone in sight, and by bringing in another hard-bitten, humourless alien as his deputy. Apart from Beeching, to whom another WR General Manager always referred to as 'the Great and Good Doctor' there was another harsh influence at 222 Marylebone Road in the Vice-Chairman, Philip Shirley, whose one idea of making the railways pay would seem to have been to close everything down!"

A gentleman like O.S. Nock putting the boot in says volumes...
apw5910
I have never read a lot about the BR system and the Lord Beechings commission/charter that he was given but there has been some small snippets on the era in the ABC series that has a former politician doing a job that has a lot of history rather than the Great British Rail Journey's associated with it, after a few easy to turn off.

One show spoke or gave a great run down as to the changes that took place and how BR was in dire trouble owing to their reliance on steam services which in both passenger and freight areas had lost out badly to road transport for trucks/buses and the motor car.  Beeching was hired to go over the system and try to find a way forward, problem was there was a lot of issues with the Railways being so reliant on Steam, and much of the steam fleet was old and worn out following the workload placed on the railways during WW2, much of the fleet was old, and not up to the needs of the 50's & 60's, the workshops still were producing low power loco's and the reliance on old steam was pulling the railways down.

His appointment to the role in the 60's to ""reshape"" the railways was done following a very big investigation that also ended in all the various companies being amalgamated into the one Entity British Railways.  When Shirley was appointed to his role as Chief Hatchet man under Beeching, he progressed to having a real vendetta against steam and considered Steam was the problem as to holding the System back, he was responsible for closing many branch and secondary lines also getting a ban on Steam working on the Main Line.

His appointment to be Chief Commissioner here in NSW by Askin who had a hatred towards railways in general pretty much gave Shirley a free hand in what he was able to do.  Like much of BR he pulled many workings out of the NSW rail system, his target began with the steam fleet, and then the passenger fleet, where the primary carriages that were withdrawn were the steel bodied carriages such as the N cars, FS/BS and other types, they were stored in many locations, at Rozelle the top roads near the stores were full of those carriages for ages, along with others stored elsewhere were sold off for a song to Sims scrap metals. What was left was wooden bodied carriages and were involved in some noted accidents following his tenure, Granville, an interurban running into the rear of a train on Cowan Bank were two to speak of, while he was gone by then the aspect of ply and timber meant the fleet had gotten rid of newer rolling stock at the expense of a bit of scrap money.

He put in process the removal of much of the goods rolling stock fleet that was old, even though there was still need of them as the freight business was still doing well, but his idea was to turn business away and close branch lines even those that were making profits during normal seasons.

Basically speaking had he gotten rid of the old by replacing it with modern and new items it may not have been as disasterous but when he cut something out it was not replaced, simple as that. Under McCusker the NSWGR had a person who was rail centric, pretty much had the rail workers onside with his want to see the system get better and if he had money to spend he could have made a huge difference. Askin wanted him out as he was too close to railway staff and saw the Railways as a blight on himself personally.

Two people not missed.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Two people not missed.
a6et
I presume you mean Askin and Shirley.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Two people not missed.
I presume you mean Askin and Shirley.
Transtopic
Not easy to figure it out.  What I put was a very much brief on the destruction the two caused, thankfully while McCusker stayed as Commissioner things were pretty fair overall, he tried to continue at a good level despite the duress he was under, and that primarily came from Macquarie St
  Milepost Beginner

I’ve been following this thread for a while now and want to correct a few assumptions made in the last few replies about 3813... and let’s keep it above the line.

The young ones need to remember that there were only three groups in the mid-70’s that had rolling stock RTM, LVR and HVRM. The ARHS did not have any equipment then, and long before 3801 Ltd was thought of.

So when 13’s bits were packed up out of Eveleigh they were sent to Enfield and Clyde wagon works. Obviously the S trucks ended up at Enfield (yes it’s a real shame that didn’t become something great) and eventually made their way to Thirlmere. The boiler was taken by the Powerhouse museum (most likely for sectioning) But the tender and main frame were not wanted by the RTM or the PHM, so they were offered to HVRM - without that acceptance they were to be buried at Clyde. In desperation they went to Hornsby before making their way northwards.

What hasn’t been mentioned in these pages is the triangular formal agreement made in the late nineties between RTM, PHM and Dorrigo which aims to keep 13 together as well as provide any parts of 13 for use by all the 38 owners. The boiler at Castle Hill had to be moved due development in the early 2000’s and thankfully the agreement allowed the boiler to be retained inside the triangle.

Talk of Dorrigo hoarding the parts is rubbish - did you know that 13’s trailing truck axle was put under 01 in a hurry to meet some tour schedules and that was two years before it was stopped for the current overhaul. There was no money exchanged for Dorrigo nor any public thanks.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of the other groups in the agreement - when 01’s overhaul commenced ages ago many worn out parts were thrown out instead of being offered to the D group, which was not in the spirit of the agreement, but also reduced the likelihood of 13 getting back together even as a static item. The same people also chopped out the corners of 13’s firebox just for a look! Poor form.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
It begs the question, where would 3813 be if the overhaul had been completed before Shirley came in
Could it have got the 6042 treatment and sent to LVR or would it have stayed in RTM ownership with no problems?
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

13 actually was in the LES in a dismantled state and work had been fairly well advanced on it when Shirley went in for his first inspection of the place, when he saw the work on 13 being carried out on it, he enquired as to what was going on with it, the reply was that it the former Commissioner, Neil McCusker had approved the overhaul of the engine for rail tours, money and workers had been allocated for the work, basically it was a farewell gift to the railways and a legacy for them.

Shirley started as Chief Commissioner 20th October 1972 and finished in 1st December 1975.
Minor time line matter. Shirley replaced McCusker October 1972, so I wonder if it was really Shirley's first trip to the LES, remembering I saw 3813 with its RTM train in Brisbane in January 1973. Either that or his first visit to the LES was February / March 1973?
Petan, interesting indeed.  I know that I saw 13 in a knocked down condition but was told by the fitters there that it was all but complete, the date I saw it at the LES escapes me, as by 1973, I was driving as well as having been trained for chargeman's duties at Delec by that time, and as time went on only times I was out driving was on Weekends and did not get to the LES at that time.

The news regarding Shirley's inspection and order to get it out came through to us at Delec in the afternoon of the order, which was late in the day.  The primary element though is that McCusker had made provision and costings to cover 13's full overhaul and restoration, and should never have been stopped, perhaps & I don't know but its probable that when 13 got back from Brisbane on that tour, it was sent straight to the LES for the work to be carried out.

I had a lot of paperwork that was in a large bowls type bag, including trip reports and the like, but it went missing following our move from WCK in 1990, after I had finished by then owing to medical retirement.

While its now totally irrelevant I guess, I could never understand not just the order to stop the overhaul as it was near completion and wasted money which had been allocated for the work, but why was the parts taken down and put into the S Trucks also the frame, boiler and Tender sent to Clyde wagon works were they all sat out in the weather for some time, not helping the condition at all, rather had it gone to Enfield loco depot the items could have at least been protected until that too came under Shirleys condemnation order.
Writing about a new General Manager Beeching put in charge of the BR Western Region, (S.E. Raymond), O.S. Nock writes in "Tales of the Great Western, page 172:

"But there are more ways of effecting a shake-up than by antagonizing everyone in sight, and by bringing in another hard-bitten, humourless alien as his deputy. Apart from Beeching, to whom another WR General Manager always referred to as 'the Great and Good Doctor' there was another harsh influence at 222 Marylebone Road in the Vice-Chairman, Philip Shirley, whose one idea of making the railways pay would seem to have been to close everything down!"

A gentleman like O.S. Nock putting the boot in says volumes...
I have never read a lot about the BR system and the Lord Beechings commission/charter that he was given but there has been some small snippets on the era in the ABC series that has a former politician doing a job that has a lot of history rather than the Great British Rail Journey's associated with it, after a few easy to turn off.

One show spoke or gave a great run down as to the changes that took place and how BR was in dire trouble owing to their reliance on steam services which in both passenger and freight areas had lost out badly to road transport for trucks/buses and the motor car.  Beeching was hired to go over the system and try to find a way forward, problem was there was a lot of issues with the Railways being so reliant on Steam, and much of the steam fleet was old and worn out following the workload placed on the railways during WW2, much of the fleet was old, and not up to the needs of the 50's & 60's, the workshops still were producing low power loco's and the reliance on old steam was pulling the railways down.

His appointment to the role in the 60's to ""reshape"" the railways was done following a very big investigation that also ended in all the various companies being amalgamated into the one Entity British Railways.  When Shirley was appointed to his role as Chief Hatchet man under Beeching, he progressed to having a real vendetta against steam and considered Steam was the problem as to holding the System back, he was responsible for closing many branch and secondary lines also getting a ban on Steam working on the Main Line.

His appointment to be Chief Commissioner here in NSW by Askin who had a hatred towards railways in general pretty much gave Shirley a free hand in what he was able to do.  Like much of BR he pulled many workings out of the NSW rail system, his target began with the steam fleet, and then the passenger fleet, where the primary carriages that were withdrawn were the steel bodied carriages such as the N cars, FS/BS and other types, they were stored in many locations, at Rozelle the top roads near the stores were full of those carriages for ages, along with others stored elsewhere were sold off for a song to Sims scrap metals. What was left was wooden bodied carriages and were involved in some noted accidents following his tenure, Granville, an interurban running into the rear of a train on Cowan Bank were two to speak of, while he was gone by then the aspect of ply and timber meant the fleet had gotten rid of newer rolling stock at the expense of a bit of scrap money.

He put in process the removal of much of the goods rolling stock fleet that was old, even though there was still need of them as the freight business was still doing well, but his idea was to turn business away and close branch lines even those that were making profits during normal seasons.

Basically speaking had he gotten rid of the old by replacing it with modern and new items it may not have been as disasterous but when he cut something out it was not replaced, simple as that. Under McCusker the NSWGR had a person who was rail centric, pretty much had the rail workers onside with his want to see the system get better and if he had money to spend he could have made a huge difference. Askin wanted him out as he was too close to railway staff and saw the Railways as a blight on himself personally.

Two people not missed.
a6et
Askin and Shirley, you've nailed them in one. One aspect that characterised Askin and Shirley was running down maintenance. My father's eldest brother was SM at Mt Vic from the early 60s to the late 70s (also spent a bit of time at MV) and I clearly remember him complaining in 1974 or so about lack at track maintenance on the western line and that it could lead to accidents. Well, he wasn't half wrong, was he?
On 3813, it indeed was taken into the LES pretty well straight after the South Brisbane tour in early 1973.
On ZZR, happy to have been corrected about why they went NG.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I have never read a lot about the BR system and the Lord Beechings commission/charter that he was given but there has been some small snippets on the era in the ABC series that has a former politician doing a job that has a lot of history rather than the Great British Rail Journey's associated with it, after a few easy to turn off.

One show spoke or gave a great run down as to the changes that took place and how BR was in dire trouble owing to their reliance on steam services which in both passenger and freight areas had lost out badly to road transport for trucks/buses and the motor car.  Beeching was hired to go over the system and try to find a way forward, problem was there was a lot of issues with the Railways being so reliant on Steam, and much of the steam fleet was old and worn out following the workload placed on the railways during WW2, much of the fleet was old, and not up to the needs of the 50's & 60's, the workshops still were producing low power loco's and the reliance on old steam was pulling the railways down.

His appointment to the role in the 60's to ""reshape"" the railways was done following a very big investigation that also ended in all the various companies being amalgamated into the one Entity British Railways.  When Shirley was appointed to his role as Chief Hatchet man under Beeching, he progressed to having a real vendetta against steam and considered Steam was the problem as to holding the System back, he was responsible for closing many branch and secondary lines also getting a ban on Steam working on the Main Line.

His appointment to be Chief Commissioner here in NSW by Askin who had a hatred towards railways in general pretty much gave Shirley a free hand in what he was able to do.  Like much of BR he pulled many workings out of the NSW rail system, his target began with the steam fleet, and then the passenger fleet, where the primary carriages that were withdrawn were the steel bodied carriages such as the N cars, FS/BS and other types, they were stored in many locations, at Rozelle the top roads near the stores were full of those carriages for ages, along with others stored elsewhere were sold off for a song to Sims scrap metals. What was left was wooden bodied carriages and were involved in some noted accidents following his tenure, Granville, an interurban running into the rear of a train on Cowan Bank were two to speak of, while he was gone by then the aspect of ply and timber meant the fleet had gotten rid of newer rolling stock at the expense of a bit of scrap money.

He put in process the removal of much of the goods rolling stock fleet that was old, even though there was still need of them as the freight business was still doing well, but his idea was to turn business away and close branch lines even those that were making profits during normal seasons.

Basically speaking had he gotten rid of the old by replacing it with modern and new items it may not have been as disasterous but when he cut something out it was not replaced, simple as that. Under McCusker the NSWGR had a person who was rail centric, pretty much had the rail workers onside with his want to see the system get better and if he had money to spend he could have made a huge difference. Askin wanted him out as he was too close to railway staff and saw the Railways as a blight on himself personally.

Two people not missed.
Askin and Shirley, you've nailed them in one. One aspect that characterised Askin and Shirley was running down maintenance. My father's eldest brother was SM at Mt Vic from the early 60s to the late 70s (also spent a bit of time at MV) and I clearly remember him complaining in 1974 or so about lack at track maintenance on the western line and that it could lead to accidents. Well, he wasn't half wrong, was he?
On 3813, it indeed was taken into the LES pretty well straight after the South Brisbane tour in early 1973.
On ZZR, happy to have been corrected about why they went NG.
studdo
I can very much relate to the maintenance aspect, under Askin he started cutting money to the NSWGR, when Shirley took over track maintenance became basically non existent, the old weekly speed restrictions issued to enginemen used to be a single sheet of paper app 8 inches wide, and around 2 foot long with all speed restrictions across the state on the sheet which was usually more than one page only, it did not take long for them to become full double pages and then almost in booklet form.

Enginemen were issued with these sheets but by end of 1973 the issuing of track defect booklets that drivers were also issued with when serious problems were found on the track, we had to write out the mileage of the defect and fill the form in, in duplicate, at the first manned signalbox or station, the officer on duty signed the form and butte of the book and it was telegraphed to Sydney. From that time we could not get replacement books when the current issues were filled.

The AFULE union office was told that the booklets were no longer being supplied and that was that. We were advised by the union to by some carbon copy books, and write in them in Triplicate, the original for the SM, as the ARU and the union covering Salaried staff also endorsed this, the 2nd one for the AFULE head office and the 3rd for the drivers record.

I came home from Lithgow Barracks in that period when we were involved in a derailment at Medlow Bath, a loaded BWH in the train consist jumped the track and ran along the top of the rail until we came under GWH on a left hand curve, with station steps going down to the platform, the BWH hit the station coping and took bricks out as it then speered out into the goods yard where 8 of the hoppers came to an upright stop, the whole train basically stopped within the overall station precinct.

In recent years, I tried to find out the date from a fellow who was an accident investigator, and I told him about the derailment, and all the relevant details, he found no record of the derailment. As MB station was not manned, the guard took over as we were protected by the signals and in Station Limits so the Traffic branch had to get someone in for that. After around 20minutes a car brigade pulled up with a stack of suits coming over demanding to know what was going on, My driver a very senior man said our train has derailed, and he then said who are you?  The return reply came, and said I am the DS from Orange and we are heading back after a conference in Sydney. He also added what are you going to do about all this and my mate calmly said, Nothing,  Why came the retorted next question to him, and my mate said, the train is inside station limits, protected by distance and home signals, and therefore is the responsibility of the Traffic Branch and perway to get it fixed. End of discussion and we waited on the 46cl until being told to cut off and run to Delec LE.

We both had to put in reports but never heard anything more about it.  There were some other aspects that occurred at the time but that was the main thing.  The track was falling to bits all round the state, and the weekly speed notices ended up being localised, that being that the old state wide speed notice sheets were terminated and local ones within a given district superintendents area of control were issued. That basically meant for Metro depots, we only got metro area notices to Broadmeadow/Pt Waratah, Port Kembla, Bathurst & Goulburn.

Thanks for that re 13.  I would say that Shirley by the time it had arrived at the LES, had already done a works inspection and 13's arrival would likely have been kept from him, he was not well liked by pretty much the whole of the railway workers, so they kept as much as possible away from him. As mentioned earlier I had been trained as a Chargeman at Delec around that time and was in the chair on the day that the news came through regarding the inspection and condemning of the engine. I know I saw it at the shops in a pretty much stripped down condition and all the bits for it were sitting there ready for it reassembly, IIRC the Driving wheels had been fitted, and the boiler also had been fitted to the frame.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Two people not missed.
I presume you mean Askin and Shirley.
Transtopic
Wonder about the part played by Milton Morris who was the state transport minister and so Askin's messenger to both McCusker  and Shirley.  Thus Morris must have agreed with Askin and Shirley and their hatchet job on the railways. Yet I recall Morris sometimes given praise in rail magazines over the years.

I know Morris may have made amends as the founding chairman and director of Hunter Valley Training Company, regarding 3801's restoration in the 1980s.

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/members/Pages/member-details.aspx?pk=1836
  a6et Minister for Railways

Two people not missed.
I presume you mean Askin and Shirley.
Wonder about the part played by Milton Morris who was the state transport minister and so Askin's messenger to both McCusker  and Shirley.  Thus Morris must have agreed with Askin and Shirley and their hatchet job on the railways. Yet I recall Morris sometimes given praise in rail magazines over the years.

I know Morris may have made amends as the founding chairman and director of Hunter Valley Training Company, regarding 3801's restoration in the 1980s.

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/members/Pages/member-details.aspx?pk=1836
petan
Petan

When swallows fly off to catcha strain, they have a lead navigator and the others follow.  In the days of the three birds you mention each had targeted jobs to do just like it was some years later when the drought of 82/83 was the perfect time to introduce the WB working, each level of management from Government, Rail bosses and other arena's were assigned with set duties and the interview processes took one line of direction.

Milton Morris had his good points but he worked well in the governmental systems directions.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
While scrolling through flickr I found this semi recent picture of 3609 at Junee, it looks really good and makes a stark comparison to the condition it was formerly in, good job to all the volunteers working on it

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53191724@N02/49186152227/
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Robert's still got the caps lock stuck on I see.  Some things never change.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Robert's still got the caps lock stuck on I see.  Some things never change.
lkernan
I'd prefer that than the "modern" (lazy) way of typing everything in lower case or those that don't seem to know which case to use and just mix it up.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
While scrolling through flickr I found this semi recent picture of 3609 at Junee, it looks really good and makes a stark comparison to the condition it was formerly in, good job to all the volunteers working on it

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53191724@N02/49186152227/
DCook

This does not look much like 3801 to me, even the non-streamlined version.

Happy pigging,

John
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Robert's still got the caps lock stuck on I see.  Some things never change.
I'd prefer that than the "modern" (lazy) way of typing everything in lower case or those that don't seem to know which case to use and just mix it up.
Graham4405
I wouldn't, since like most people I read all caps as shouting.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Frustration is . . . waiting much longer than we should have for 3801 to be roadworthy again and then seeing it sit there, all dressed up and nothing to do.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Agree on your point Valvegear about frustration, there was so much build up and then it all came crashing down
Just look at the THNSW facebook page, their post and video of it's first mainline trial has more than 10 million views with most of them from January, their second highest viewed video barely has 400 thousand views
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

Agree on your point Valvegear about frustration, there was so much build up and then it all came crashing down
Just look at the THNSW facebook page, their post and video of it's first mainline trial has more than 10 million views with most of them from January, their second highest viewed video barely has 400 thousand views
DCook
The numbers say it all, don't they. Personally, I prefer non-streamlined 38s, so would love to see 3830 running again. But that's just me.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Personally, I prefer non-streamlined 38s, so would love to see 3830 running again. But that's just me.
"studdo"
No it's not just you. I have the same preference.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
Personally, I prefer non-streamlined 38s, so would love to see 3830 running again. But that's just me.
No it's not just you. I have the same preference.
Valvegear
And then there were three.

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