Barossa tourist plan derailed as Supreme Court backs State Government

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Apr 2020 21:15
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Singleton is a sizeable town, with a wide range of retail and service enterprises that support local mining, agribusiness (wine and equine) and the defence base. The local council is also based there. Not surprising that lots of people commute in - would be interesting to see patronage figures for the hunter train services - frequency drops off Sharply after Maitland (Telarah).

Worth a visit, with or without the wineries.
"SinickleBird"


I was using the Sydney Compendium from 2014, but the Open data site from NSW govt has more recent data. If you can make sense out of it, let the rest of know.

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
You’re in the same boat he is, no wonder you like the product, sounds like two nut bags have found each other.
You Sir are a tool.
That's the best you can do? You must be slower than Australia Post's parcel delivery service.
Aaron
Clearly you thought it was good enough - I can only assume it was you who reported my comment (unsuccessfully) to the mods for action Laughing

Meanwhile to all of the RP Geber haters out there I'm happy to report that this Chateau Tanunda Terroirs of the Barossa Shiraz is absolutely DELICIOUS! Just checked Halliday's, he gave it 95 points so I'm not alone in my appreciation of this quality wine.

I reckon I'll continue to trust my judgement (and my nose) and steer clear of the RP resident wine critics.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

I reckon I'll continue to trust my judgement (and my nose) and steer clear of the RP resident wine critics.
BrentonGolding
Isn't the Barossa there just to keep the Chateau Cardboard wine pillocks from getting to the fine wines in the Clare Valley? Laughing
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I reckon I'll continue to trust my judgement (and my nose) and steer clear of the RP resident wine critics.
Isn't the Barossa there just to keep the Chateau Cardboard wine pillocks from getting to the fine wines in the Clare Valley? Laughing
gunzel42
Now, now, it's not a competition - there is room enough in the market for all of the great SA wine producing regions! I have sampled many a good Clare Valley Red. McLaren Vale has a fair bit to offer as well, Then there's Langhorne Creek They all serve a purpose - ensuring that I am not forced to drink Victorian or forbid NSW reds Laughing
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

I reckon I'll continue to trust my judgement (and my nose) and steer clear of the RP resident wine critics.
Isn't the Barossa there just to keep the Chateau Cardboard wine pillocks from getting to the fine wines in the Clare Valley? Laughing
Now, now, it's not a competition - there is room enough in the market for all of the great SA wine producing regions! I have sampled many a good Clare Valley Red. McLaren Vale has a fair bit to offer as well, Then there's Langhorne Creek They all serve a purpose - ensuring that I am not forced to drink Victorian or forbid NSW reds Laughing
BrentonGolding
Keeping it on topic somewhat, the Limestone Coast Railway took you through the second best wine region.  There is some good wines from northern NSW but they consider themselves pseudo Queenslanders to separate them from the Hunter.  I don't know if any of the heritage rail groups service Margaret River but I hope not.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You’re in the same boat he is, no wonder you like the product, sounds like two nut bags have found each other.
You Sir are a tool.
That's the best you can do? You must be slower than Australia Post's parcel delivery service.
Clearly you thought it was good enough - I can only assume it was you who reported my comment (unsuccessfully) to the mods for action Laughing

Meanwhile to all of the RP Geber haters out there I'm happy to report that this Chateau Tanunda Terroirs of the Barossa Shiraz is absolutely DELICIOUS! Just checked Halliday's, he gave it 95 points so I'm not alone in my appreciation of this quality wine.

I reckon I'll continue to trust my judgement (and my nose) and steer clear of the RP resident wine critics.
BrentonGolding
Wasn’t me that reported it, I didn’t even initially see it, I had to ‘unhide’ it to see it, go your hardest, I have broad shoulders, nothing offends me, and no one scares or upsets me, least of all a Chateau Cardboard enjoyer. If Halliday rates it a 95 he’s welcome to it, never thought much of him anyway, I have had the mis pleasure of attending a photoshoot with that pompous prick, that was enough for me, had not read one of his books before, won’t read one now.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I reckon I'll continue to trust my judgement (and my nose) and steer clear of the RP resident wine critics.
Isn't the Barossa there just to keep the Chateau Cardboard wine pillocks from getting to the fine wines in the Clare Valley? Laughing
Now, now, it's not a competition - there is room enough in the market for all of the great SA wine producing regions! I have sampled many a good Clare Valley Red. McLaren Vale has a fair bit to offer as well, Then there's Langhorne Creek They all serve a purpose - ensuring that I am not forced to drink Victorian or forbid NSW reds Laughing
Keeping it on topic somewhat, the Limestone Coast Railway took you through the second best wine region.  There is some good wines from northern NSW but they consider themselves pseudo Queenslanders to separate them from the Hunter.  I don't know if any of the heritage rail groups service Margaret River but I hope not.
gunzel42
We saw some Hunter wines while we were overseas, (and some Jacob’s product too) my wife got all excited because it was Australian, I just said ‘yeah we export that crap because no one back home wants to drink it’. They LOVE it overseas, Jacob’s Creek is all the rage, buy that in a restaurant and people think you’re a snob. One of my friends went on a date some years ago, afterward she said ‘Aaron, I thought he was okay, we went on a picnic, but he bought a bottle of Jacob’s Creek, I don’t think I can see him again’, I said ‘yeah, I don’t think you should either’ - she didn’t. Laughing
  62440 Chief Commissioner

I don't know if any of the heritage rail groups service Margaret River but I hope not.
gunzel42
There was a study done on reopening the line to Margaret River. A section has been lost in Busselton but the line could have followed the by-pass and most of the rest of the corridor is intact, if somewhat overgrown. This was for genuine rail services, not tourist trundles. It was a bit of a "straw man" project. Don't worry, it will never happen. I don't think that the heritage group on that line, at Boyanup, have the resources to run beyond Capel
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I don't know if any of the heritage rail groups service Margaret River but I hope not.
There was a study done on reopening the line to Margaret River. A section has been lost in Busselton but the line could have followed the by-pass and most of the rest of the corridor is intact, if somewhat overgrown. This was for genuine rail services, not tourist trundles. It was a bit of a "straw man" project. Don't worry, it will never happen. I don't think that the heritage group on that line, at Boyanup, have the resources to run beyond Capel
62440
No tracks beyond Capel.

The former line (well more a timber tramway) around Margaret River Is a Rail Trail.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

No tracks beyond Capel.

The former line (well more a timber tramway) around Margaret River Is a Rail Trail.
Nightfire
The track bed was intact to Busselton and was still gazetted as a rail corridor by Busselton Council who were in favour. It would have to grade separate at the Highway. For a quality track, it would be rebuilt anyway. The line to Capel had only just closed and was still operational though the service had finished, this was in the noughties. The track layout at Picton would have allowed direct Busselton to Bunbury or Busselton to Perth with a possible divide at Picton station.
The report also looked at using the port access line, which was still operational to the Discovery Centre and extending back into the original station as a bus-rail interchange.
There used to be a direct connection at Bunbury for the bus southwards which I used to get to Dunsborough but Westrail decided not to guarantee the connection when Mandurah opened so I switched to Mandurah and used South West coachlines. This avoided the long stop at Lake Clifton on the Westrail bus.
  4BJ Chief Commissioner

Location: Backside trackside at Hawthorn near Mitcham
The Barossa Wine Train was, in my opinion, doomed from Day One.  For a start, the return train fare between Adelaide and Tanunda alone was $55.00.  Well and truly beyond my budget.  Bus tours to wineries incurred additional costs.  Tourists were able to do bus tours for less.  Not surprisingly, BWT was a failure.  I remember posting more than once on this forum that the next time Bluebirds went to the Barossa would be as crew cars on the Stonie.  That never happened.  I stand justified.

Then there was a thread about BWT being revived.  The person who started the thread included a graphic that had my flying pig avatar being turned into part of a bacon and egg breakfast.  The revival never happened.

As things stand, the three BWT railcars are located at the NRM.  Does NRM want them there?  I suspect not.

I am of the belief that Mr Geber can reduce his losses.  Sell the three Bluebirds to be converted into crew cars.
  82class Beginner

I was at the NRM only the other week and after talking to a number of mechanics and volunteers there they said that the 3 Bluebirds will never run under there own power again after being mistreated in the weather for too many years.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Whatever happened to these units?

Last movement between Nyora and Cranbourne was the Sth Australian railcar movement to Bendigo.

  justapassenger Minister for Railways

From memory:
- A couple of them were operated by the Lions Club of Yorke Peninsula Railway, and then sold to various private owners around the country.
- The rest never ran on rails again, and were sold for scrap or to various owners for static use.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
For a start, the return train fare between Adelaide and Tanunda alone was $55.00.  Well and truly beyond my budget.  Bus tours to wineries incurred additional costs.  Tourists were able to do bus tours for less.
4BJ
Correct, and for comparison someone just revived a face book chat group I am in now that wineries are starting to reopen again, in it is the discussion we had about our last wine tour to the Barossa.

From a friend’s house in Unley Park to five Barossa wineries (one too many I think, a little longer each at four would have been better) and return, $336 for 12 of us, we paid $30 and shouted the driver lunch.

By no measure does the train compete.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

For a start, the return train fare between Adelaide and Tanunda alone was $55.00.  Well and truly beyond my budget.  Bus tours to wineries incurred additional costs.  Tourists were able to do bus tours for less.
Correct, and for comparison someone just revived a face book chat group I am in now that wineries are starting to reopen again, in it is the discussion we had about our last wine tour to the Barossa.

From a friend’s house in Unley Park to five Barossa wineries (one too many I think, a little longer each at four would have been better) and return, $336 for 12 of us, we paid $30 and shouted the driver lunch.

By no measure does the train compete.
Aaron
Was one of the five Chateau Tanunda? I've heard they have a few reds that come out of the cask quite nicely.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Er, um, no, neither was Jacob’s Creek on the list.
  82class Beginner

In 20 years of Growth throughout the Barossa wouldn't a train be more viable then before???
  allan Chief Commissioner

In 20 years of Growth throughout the Barossa wouldn't a train be more viable then before???
82class
Possibly more viable, but not viable enough. And that was before covid.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
In 20 years of Growth throughout the Barossa wouldn't a train be more viable then before???
82class
The real question is how many of those that have ‘grown’ the Barossa need to commute to Adelaide? Of those that need to commute, all of them are either accustomed to driving into the city, or to Gawler and catching the train.

Would anyone living in say Tanunda catch the train from Tanunda to the city? Unlikely, clearly I don’t do this, but should I wish to drive from Chateau Tanunda to the city I can do so in the time it takes the train to get from Gawler to the city. A train from Tanunda to Gawler would cost at least an extra half hour.

I just spoke with a mate that lives in Marananga which by some metric is the largest town in the Barossa, and I asked him if he would ditch the car for a train. He said ‘Nah’. He drives to Adelaide most days of the week.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
In 20 years of Growth throughout the Barossa wouldn't a train be more viable then before???
82class
The real question is how many of those that have ‘grown’ the Barossa need to commute to Adelaide? Of those that need to commute, all of them are either accustomed to driving into the city, or to Gawler and catching the train.

Would anyone living in say Tanunda catch the train from Tanunda to the city? Unlikely, clearly I don’t do this, but should I wish to drive from Chateau Tanunda to the city I can do so in the time it takes the train to get from Gawler to the city. A train from Tanunda to Gawler would cost at least an extra half hour.

I just spoke with a mate that lives in Marananga which by some metric is the largest town in the Barossa, and I asked him if he would ditch the car for a train. He said ‘Nah’. He drives to Adelaide most days of the week.
"Aaron"


So what you are saying Aaron is that there is no point in extending any Commuter rail network anywhere because the target audience is "accustomed to driving", fortunately the numbers elsewhere show a different story.

When went through the numbers on a comparable basis some time back comparing to actual driving time from the Valley to the CBD, expected rail journey time and how this compares to the Sydney Outer Richmond line where the local population is similar to the valley and distance from the Sydney CBD. Note the Richmond line is sparked and has what a 20min peak frequency using trains with a seated capacity of over 1000 people. So I'm sure a few Adelaide DMU's might fill more than a few seats. Yes the catchment to rail in lower density Greater Adelaide is likely to be lower the Barossa is itself a tourist/day trip destination which provide a reverse peak flow of traffic.

While the will is not there, it will not happen, but I doubt its due to the potential numbers. Hell the current SA govt has stated it won't invest in any more tram expansion as it believes the technology is out of date.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

In 20 years of Growth throughout the Barossa wouldn't a train be more viable then before???
The real question is how many of those that have ‘grown’ the Barossa need to commute to Adelaide? Of those that need to commute, all of them are either accustomed to driving into the city, or to Gawler and catching the train.

Would anyone living in say Tanunda catch the train from Tanunda to the city? Unlikely, clearly I don’t do this, but should I wish to drive from Chateau Tanunda to the city I can do so in the time it takes the train to get from Gawler to the city. A train from Tanunda to Gawler would cost at least an extra half hour.

I just spoke with a mate that lives in Marananga which by some metric is the largest town in the Barossa, and I asked him if he would ditch the car for a train. He said ‘Nah’. He drives to Adelaide most days of the week.


So what you are saying Aaron is that there is no point in extending any Commuter rail network anywhere because the target audience is "accustomed to driving", fortunately the numbers elsewhere show a different story.

When went through the numbers on a comparable basis some time back comparing to actual driving time from the Valley to the CBD, expected rail journey time and how this compares to the Sydney Outer Richmond line where the local population is similar to the valley and distance from the Sydney CBD. Note the Richmond line is sparked and has what a 20min peak frequency using trains with a seated capacity of over 1000 people. So I'm sure a few Adelaide DMU's might fill more than a few seats. Yes the catchment to rail in lower density Greater Adelaide is likely to be lower the Barossa is itself a tourist/day trip destination which provide a reverse peak flow of traffic.

While the will is not there, it will not happen, but I doubt its due to the potential numbers. Hell the current SA govt has stated it won't invest in any more tram expansion as it believes the technology is out of date.
RTT_Rules
'Hell the current SA govt has stated it won't invest in any more tram expansion as it believes the technology is out of date.'

What gives  with these Liberal governments? It reminds me when the Bjelke Jo government closed the Gold Coast railway claiming that it was outdated and huge helicopters would soon be transporting passengers to this location. Why don't they just come out and say they are anti-public transport.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
In 20 years of Growth throughout the Barossa wouldn't a train be more viable then before???
The real question is how many of those that have ‘grown’ the Barossa need to commute to Adelaide? Of those that need to commute, all of them are either accustomed to driving into the city, or to Gawler and catching the train.

Would anyone living in say Tanunda catch the train from Tanunda to the city? Unlikely, clearly I don’t do this, but should I wish to drive from Chateau Tanunda to the city I can do so in the time it takes the train to get from Gawler to the city. A train from Tanunda to Gawler would cost at least an extra half hour.

I just spoke with a mate that lives in Marananga which by some metric is the largest town in the Barossa, and I asked him if he would ditch the car for a train. He said ‘Nah’. He drives to Adelaide most days of the week.


So what you are saying Aaron is that there is no point in extending any Commuter rail network anywhere because the target audience is "accustomed to driving", fortunately the numbers elsewhere show a different story.

When went through the numbers on a comparable basis some time back comparing to actual driving time from the Valley to the CBD, expected rail journey time and how this compares to the Sydney Outer Richmond line where the local population is similar to the valley and distance from the Sydney CBD. Note the Richmond line is sparked and has what a 20min peak frequency using trains with a seated capacity of over 1000 people. So I'm sure a few Adelaide DMU's might fill more than a few seats. Yes the catchment to rail in lower density Greater Adelaide is likely to be lower the Barossa is itself a tourist/day trip destination which provide a reverse peak flow of traffic.

While the will is not there, it will not happen, but I doubt its due to the potential numbers. Hell the current SA govt has stated it won't invest in any more tram expansion as it believes the technology is out of date.
RTT_Rules

In Victoria, if the same question was asked around 20 years ago of the typical commuter driving their car from say Ballarat to Melbourne, around 200+Km a day, the answer would also have been 'nar'. This is only one example.

Move forward 20 years and a generational change. Ballarat hosted, before COVID-19 a commuter base of around 1500+ pax per morning commute, growing strongly, each pax travelling AND working or sleeping/relaxing whilst travelling, something that remains impossible in a car.
Moreover the train is FAR cheaper than driving and works out to little more than the daily parking cost in the City. Obviously this doesn't include vehicle running costs AND the wear and tear on the driver.

The progressive government in Victoria knows that public transport is more capable of moving large numbers of people around than building more and more roads and widening others, except where necessary. In addition an unexpected bonus for the investment in public transport is the generational change that comes with utilising PT as a first option as a mode of transport, not an afterthought and the proof of that is the many 'young' people in their early 20's who utilise PT to travel to venues for their social activities, whose parents would have driven cars. The blood alcohol and drug testing has also had a significant impact of the travel options young people utilise.

As the Marshall government continues its downward trajectory on public transport, it will be to its detriment and electoral oblivion if its thinking continues in such a misguided way.

Comment to the contrary as you may, but the facts here speak for themselves.

Mike.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

Comment to the contrary as you may, but the facts here speak for themselves.

Mike.
The Vinelander

You have not provided any facts, other than that there is general lack of interest in matters rail form the current administration.

Facts are things like actual potential patronage numbers, actual costs - not speculation and guesswork - as is the norm here.

Only slightly related, but I saw a humorous quote relating to a local railway in the UK faced with closure during the Beeching era. Locals were outraged when they discovered they actually had railway.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Here’s a fact for you Vinelander, so Ballarat manages to contribute 1.5% of its population per day to rail. To get to 1500 people per day at 1.5% of the population South Australia would need to build a station and line at EVERY LOCALE within 100km of Adelaide (yes even Marananga), not just one regional city. You contribute some tax to that, because I don’t intend to.

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