Restoring a standard goods locomotive to operational condition (Page 1) / Preservation and Tourist Railways / Forums / Railpage

DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state

In the past 20 years almost all the NSW steam locomotives restored or overhauled to operational condition have been from the C grouping, with some exceptions. No NSW preservation group has had a standard goods operational since 5367 was withdrawn in the early 2000s
Currently the only standard goods locomotives able to be restored are the THNSW locomotives, the Dorrigo ones cannot for obvious reasons and the LVR 53 cannot as it is basically landlocked

That leaves 5096, 5461 and 5595, all of which have some problems associated with condition and parts

5096 is in an overall moderate/poor condition and has not run since 1967
5461 is in overall good/moderate condition and has not run since 1985
5595 is in overall good condition and has not run since 1966
Only one standard goods spare boiler remains, that is 5467A

Which of these would be the best to restore in terms of cost, hauling power and amount of work needed?

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apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.

You forgot 5112. Which nearly made it.

Unfortunately Standard Goods locos fall into the "Why Bother?" category. Way overkill for running "loop line" type tourist services and too slow for the mainline. Dorrigo would actually be a good place for them to run.

LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria

Currently the only standard goods locomotives able to be restored are the THNSW locomotives, the Dorrigo ones cannot for obvious reasons and the LVR 53 cannot as it is basically landlocked
DCook

Why can't Rosie be trucked out? From what I hear, Rosie isn't that far away from letting off steam.

a6et Minister for Railways

Currently the only standard goods locomotives able to be restored are the THNSW locomotives, the Dorrigo ones cannot for obvious reasons and the LVR 53 cannot as it is basically landlocked
Why can't Rosie be trucked out? From what I hear, Rosie isn't that far away from letting off steam.
LowndesJ515

LVR have reached an agreement with the support of the local council to fix up the Cowra yard area and get access back to the depot, also to recondition the line from Cowra to Holmwood, so I believe for tourist operations. With that operations 5367 is the most likely candidate for the working, not too far and well in the capacity of a freighter and water requirements.

Hopefully if this operation proves to be a success it may open up the prospect of more line extensions in the area.

One of the biggest issues and that means restrictions on having an operating SG loco, is their limited speed abilities. If one had the balanced wheels it may make some difference but even in operations with those extra balances, they were still restricted as to how fast they could go, and that was 40MPH.

With 3001 being returned to service at Thrilmere, it will likely give 2705 a spell and perhaps an operational freighter could provide better motive power for operations on the line especially in hauling capacity.

TheFish Chief Train Controller

Location: Pyongyang

You forgot 5112. Which nearly made it.

Unfortunately Standard Goods locos fall into the "Why Bother?" category. Way overkill for running "loop line" type tourist services and too slow for the mainline. Dorrigo would actually be a good place for them to run.
apw5910

A standard goods won't be overkill with THNSW's plans to extend and upgrade loop line operations. Increased patronage and steeper grades beyond Balmoral could take operations beyond the capabilities of 3265, 3001 and 2705.

neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.

DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
neillfarmer

It is 5595, 5597 was scrapped at least 50 years ago

Personally I would rather a D50 instead of a D55 but 5096, the only THNSW owned 50, is almost at scrap value after years of outdoor storage

LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
neillfarmer

6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?

neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?
LowndesJ515

60 and 60++ were allowed 40 mph (65 kph) according to my 1960s era Working Timetables. The Katies were fairly free running so if the safety people are happy to see 6029 do 75 kph maybe they would also allow 5597 to do the same.

petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?
60 and 60++ were allowed 40 mph (65 kph) according to my 1960s era Working Timetables. The Katies were fairly free running so if the safety people are happy to see 6029 do 75 kph maybe they would also allow 5597 to do the same.
neillfarmer

While that 75 kph for freighters may seem slow, some may recall the passenger locos have an 80kph limit with at least one type of water wagon on passenger trips. So 75 for a freighter is not really that different to 80kph with water wagon.

studdo Locomotive Fireman

I know it will almost certainly never happen, but if a 50cl is to be restored to service I'd like it to be 5069. It was the last standard goods to be withdrawn (Dec 1972), was overhauled in 1971 and should still be in reasonable mechanical condition one hopes. Plus, as a saturated engine (a snotty nose to a6et - love that railway speak) it should (as I understand it) be an easier proposition than a superheated standard goods. It's amazing that the last standard goods to be withdrawn was in almost original condition. I think 5112 might be a saturated but it received more modifications than 5069.

DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state

I know it will almost certainly never happen, but if a 50cl is to be restored to service I'd like it to be 5069. It was the last standard goods to be withdrawn (Dec 1972), was overhauled in 1971 and should still be in reasonable mechanical condition one hopes. Plus, as a saturated engine (a snotty nose to a6et - love that railway speak) it should (as I understand it) be an easier proposition than a superheated standard goods. It's amazing that the last standard goods to be withdrawn was in almost original condition. I think 5112 might be a saturated but it received more modifications than 5069.
studdo

It was also the last D50 to run, it's last run was in about 1986 for the Dorrigo reopening train in conjunction with 3028T

The Dorrigo ownership is probably the only thing preventing a return to service

michaelgm Chief Commissioner

I know it will almost certainly never happen, but if a 50cl is to be restored to service I'd like it to be 5069. It was the last standard goods to be withdrawn (Dec 1972), was overhauled in 1971 and should still be in reasonable mechanical condition one hopes. Plus, as a saturated engine (a snotty nose to a6et - love that railway speak) it should (as I understand it) be an easier proposition than a superheated standard goods. It's amazing that the last standard goods to be withdrawn was in almost original condition. I think 5112 might be a saturated but it received more modifications than 5069.
It was also the last D50 to run, it's last run was in about 1986 for the Dorrigo reopening train in conjunction with 3028T

The Dorrigo ownership is probably the only thing preventing a return to service
DCook

Any rolling stock item at Dorrigo, purchased a one ticket, return fare is not available.

DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state

I know it will almost certainly never happen, but if a 50cl is to be restored to service I'd like it to be 5069. It was the last standard goods to be withdrawn (Dec 1972), was overhauled in 1971 and should still be in reasonable mechanical condition one hopes. Plus, as a saturated engine (a snotty nose to a6et - love that railway speak) it should (as I understand it) be an easier proposition than a superheated standard goods. It's amazing that the last standard goods to be withdrawn was in almost original condition. I think 5112 might be a saturated but it received more modifications than 5069.
It was also the last D50 to run, it's last run was in about 1986 for the Dorrigo reopening train in conjunction with 3028T

The Dorrigo ownership is probably the only thing preventing a return to service
Any rolling stock item at Dorrigo, purchased a one ticket, return fare is not available.
michaelgm

Except for one that had it's ticket voided by ticketing officer P.S and then purchased a trip around NSW, to all places at the same time

a6et Minister for Railways

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?
60 and 60++ were allowed 40 mph (65 kph) according to my 1960s era Working Timetables. The Katies were fairly free running so if the safety people are happy to see 6029 do 75 kph maybe they would also allow 5597 to do the same.
While that 75 kph for freighters may seem slow, some may recall the passenger locos have an 80kph limit with at least one type of water wagon on passenger trips. So 75 for a freighter is not really that different to 80kph with water wagon.
petan

What is the wagon that has the restriction on it Petan?

30T loco's were restricted to 50mph, only reason I can think of is the driving wheel diameter, being less than the 32cl which was 60mph.

neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

The 30T had 55" drivers, The 60s also had 55" but the standard goods were 51". The cylinder stroke on the 30T was only 24", the others had 26".
The slower and lighter reciprocating masses and the fact they started out as passenger engines might explain why the 30 and 30T were allowed 50 mph.

petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?
60 and 60++ were allowed 40 mph (65 kph) according to my 1960s era Working Timetables. The Katies were fairly free running so if the safety people are happy to see 6029 do 75 kph maybe they would also allow 5597 to do the same.
While that 75 kph for freighters may seem slow, some may recall the passenger locos have an 80kph limit with at least one type of water wagon on passenger trips. So 75 for a freighter is not really that different to 80kph with water wagon.
What is the wagon that has the restriction on it Petan?

30T loco's were restricted to 50mph, only reason I can think of is the driving wheel diameter, being less than the 32cl which was 60mph.
a6et

A6ET, L229 water tanker has an 80kph limit when fully loaded or empty, according to the John Holland list of January 2012 which listed L229 with 3801 LTD. Your question also reveals you have not noticed numerous reports either on Railpage or other forums (forget which) where railfans complained that the loco that otherwise could do 100kph plus, had an 80 limit with the wagon, thus revealng some heritage steam tour operator this century, so not some 1960s memory, opeerated a water wagon with that 80 limit. The John Holland sheets called it a water gin but I find that term has racial undertones, despite that term in official publications.

LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?
60 and 60++ were allowed 40 mph (65 kph) according to my 1960s era Working Timetables. The Katies were fairly free running so if the safety people are happy to see 6029 do 75 kph maybe they would also allow 5597 to do the same.
While that 75 kph for freighters may seem slow, some may recall the passenger locos have an 80kph limit with at least one type of water wagon on passenger trips. So 75 for a freighter is not really that different to 80kph with water wagon.
What is the wagon that has the restriction on it Petan?

30T loco's were restricted to 50mph, only reason I can think of is the driving wheel diameter, being less than the 32cl which was 60mph.
A6ET, L229 water tanker has an 80kph limit when fully loaded or empty, according to the John Holland list of January 2012 which listed L229 with 3801 LTD. Your question also reveals you have not noticed numerous reports either on Railpage or other forums (forget which) where railfans complained that the loco that otherwise could do 100kph plus, had an 80 limit with the wagon, thus revealng some heritage steam tour operator this century, so not some 1960s memory, opeerated a water wagon with that 80 limit. The John Holland sheets called it a water gin but I find that term has racial undertones, despite that term in official publications.
petan

The only water gin I know of capable of travelling at 115km/h is sitting at Cowra ex 3801 Limited vehicle.

a6et Minister for Railways

Standard goods engines are limited to 40 mph if fitted with balanced coupled wheels. This is the same limit as 6029. It would be nice to see 5597 operable, I think it would be the only operating locomotive in the world fitted with southern valve gear.
6029 is 75km/h (46mph). Or was the speed 40MPH in regular service?
60 and 60++ were allowed 40 mph (65 kph) according to my 1960s era Working Timetables. The Katies were fairly free running so if the safety people are happy to see 6029 do 75 kph maybe they would also allow 5597 to do the same.
While that 75 kph for freighters may seem slow, some may recall the passenger locos have an 80kph limit with at least one type of water wagon on passenger trips. So 75 for a freighter is not really that different to 80kph with water wagon.
What is the wagon that has the restriction on it Petan?

30T loco's were restricted to 50mph, only reason I can think of is the driving wheel diameter, being less than the 32cl which was 60mph.
A6ET, L229 water tanker has an 80kph limit when fully loaded or empty, according to the John Holland list of January 2012 which listed L229 with 3801 LTD. Your question also reveals you have not noticed numerous reports either on Railpage or other forums (forget which) where railfans complained that the loco that otherwise could do 100kph plus, had an 80 limit with the wagon, thus revealng some heritage steam tour operator this century, so not some 1960s memory, opeerated a water wagon with that 80 limit. The John Holland sheets called it a water gin but I find that term has racial undertones, despite that term in official publications.
petan

Thank you for the reply Petan.

I don't read all blogs on Railpage, but there were a couple on the water gins, more so the types over the years.

As for the racial undertones in the use of the Water Gins, that to me tells me that the concept of political correctness in our language has taken another step downwards, and can only be caused when such is raised. Reality is, that the so called water gin used to be called water Ginty, like many items over the years names have changed for many items, and the vast majority of them with no racial or political correctness involved.

Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy

Pretty soon you won't be able to order a Gin and Tonic.

petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!

My freight loco (either standard goods or 57 class or Garratt) point is that the water wagon will limit the high speed express locos to about 80kph which is similar to the various freight locos' limit of 75kph, assuming that speed over that 5kph range can fluctuate a minor amount either going up or downhill with a reasonable load.

apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.

Pretty soon you won't be able to order a Gin and Tonic.
Valvegear

Or use a jim crow (rail bender). Not to be confused with Jim Crow , the southern US politician: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

a6et Minister for Railways

The 30T had 55" drivers, The 60s also had 55" but the standard goods were 51". The cylinder stroke on the 30T was only 24", the others had 26".
The slower and lighter reciprocating masses and the fact they started out as passenger engines might explain why the 30 and 30T were allowed 50 mph.
neillfarmer

Thanks for the correction Neil. That would bring the 30's not far off the P class, and they could mostly take the work of a P class on many services around. We had an old 32cl roster at Enfield in the morning to Richmond and back, pick up carriages at Clyde and return them there. In the later days when 3009 was returned to Enfield & IIRC from Cowra it became the regular engine on the service, it also ended up with a 3650gl tender, the best part besides their ease in steaming and handling the load was the aspect that they rode much much better than a P.

DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state

You forgot 5112. Which nearly made it.

Unfortunately Standard Goods locos fall into the "Why Bother?" category. Way overkill for running "loop line" type tourist services and too slow for the mainline. Dorrigo would actually be a good place for them to run.
A standard goods won't be overkill with THNSW's plans to extend and upgrade loop line operations. Increased patronage and steeper grades beyond Balmoral could take operations beyond the capabilities of 3265, 3001 and 2705.
TheFish

The problem with the THNSW standard goods is that none can be restored in a shorter time frame or cheaply
5096's boiler is far too deteriorated to be repaired and no spare boilers exist, a D53 boiler would need modifications to fit
5461 has just been statically restored at Valley Heights but is in quite bad mechanical condition, It does have a spare boiler
5595 is the most likely of the 3 to be restored but no spare D55 boilers exist, a D53 boiler would need modifications to fit

Edited to remove any references to 5461's bad reputation

apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.

5461 has just been statically restored at Valley Heights but has the worst reputation of all NSW locos, It does have a spare boiler
DCook

Don't base its abilities on a couple of poems about its time as TF1174, that incidentally helped get it preserved. It was chosen by the RTM for its overall good mechanical condition at the end of steam, and it performed well in RTM service.

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