Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
What a turkey, in the 90s victoria's economy was about $200 billion GSP versus today (or just pre-COVID19) in the $450 billion mark. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_states_and_territories_by_gross_state_product#Historical_gross_state_product_(since_1989%E2%80%9390)

"Ermergehd debt levels are too high" is a useless argument without comparing it to the size of the economy - or even the population count.
The suburban rail loop project will never be built because it's simply too expensive and the VIC government will run out of credit and tax revenues particularly from stamp duty will fall. Here's an expert from Moody's 12 months ago (pre COVID19 twenty billion dollar spending spree):

Moody's singled out the Andrews government's giant suburban rail loop as a project that will challenge its treasury in the coming decades.

“Initial estimates for this project, at around $50 billion over a 30-year construction period, highlight the challenge the state will face in retaining current fiscal objectives over time, while working with the Commonwealth and other bodies to deliver such projects,” the Moody's report noted.

The increasing levels of debt, estimated at an average of $45 billion a year for the next four years, should be of concern to state treasurers, Moody's warns.


Debt isn't free money, it has to be paid back by subsequent generations of Victorians or Australians. Our debtors have to believe that we're good for it for us to keep borrowing money at low rates.
don_dunstan
From your linked article:

But [John] Manning [VP of Moody's] said Victoria’s all-important AAA credit rating, which allows it to borrow money on good terms, remains safe and the debt the state was taking on was manageable.

Emphasis is mine. The article does go on to state that incomes need to increase to maintain this rating as well, which will certainly take a hit after the stamp duty losses and the pandemic. But that does not mean it is the end of the Victorian economy.

While I think the expected $50 billion is way too much to be expected of the state to pay alone, each individual part of the SRL is expected to cost in the range of $10-20 billion using napkin maths. This puts the entire project more in line with something like the Sydney Metro projects. Instead of 3 or 4 separate projects that will eventually join together in the case of Sydney Metro, Melbourne will have 1 big project split into pieces that serves much the same purpose.

For context, Sydney Metro Northwest cost ~$8.3 billion and Metro City and Southwest is expected to cost as much as $16.8 billion. Metro West is budgeted at $6.4 billion and Metro Greater West is budgeted at $11 billion. Overall, Sydney Metro will be at a cost of $42.5 billion for about 113km of track. SRL doesn't sound terribly out of place any more.

With how much stuff the state is trying to pay for, I'm surprised that there hasn't been as much talk about getting federal funds. The feds are splashing cash in Sydney on the Metro, but are hesitant to fund a similar project here. Sydney Metro Greater West, ie the new airport metro, is basically the same thing as MARL but without even an existing airport to connect to.

EDIT: Courtesy of @simstrain, Metro West will actually cost $12.5 billion. This takes the total cost to $48.6 billion.

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud

This money is real, it has to be paid back at some stage with interest.Sod off Don.

You already have other threads to rant about the ills of Victoria goverance. Stop infecting everthing with your tripe.

JohnYou have no clue about money, do you John.@don I understand debt as well as you.

I just don't bore the crap out of the audience by continually repeating the same tired nonsense expecting opinions to change. Yours certainly don't, we've heard them all hundreds of times with nothing new.

When you want to rant about Victoria goverance, a topic which you are plainly the world's greatest expert,  then there is a thread established just for you "Dan Andrews Imploading Act". Knock yourself out, somebody might even discuss with you.

And since when do you qualify as part of "our debtors". Its my debt, not yours.

cheers
John
justarider
Might surprise you to know I was born in Victoria and I've spent most of my life there so I think I'm entitled to comment.

What you're saying is that discussion about how this project is financed has nothing to do whatsoever with the dreamy dream of having twin bored tunnels exceeding 100km in length all the way around urban Melbourne. Nothing at all. Money is no object.

Why stop with that - why not be the first place in the nation to build a skyhook? It's technically possible now with the invention of new carbon compounds strong enough to handle it.

This thread really belongs in the "foamy gunzel dreamy dreams" part of the Lounge because it's just an unfunded fantasy; not even tens of billions of borrowed Chinese money will make any difference.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
This thread really belongs in the "foamy gunzel dreamy dreams" part of the Lounge because it's just an unfunded fantasy; not even tens of billions of borrowed Chinese money will make any difference.
--Don_Dunstan

"Foamy" yeah well you're the one frothing.

we all know where you were born, you tell us often enough.
Since you think you're so entitled,  that cuts both ways. I'm entitled to ignore yor pseudo science.

Nobody except yourself ever said "money is no object". @EmrldPhoenix just shot that down.
You are well aware that a huge Business Case is underway. That will provide a lot better description of what's what than us mere gunzels.
Although, you won't ever accept anything somebody that is actually qualified has to say.

BTW , I do stop at skyhook. I bought mine 50 years ago.(RIP Shirley)

cheers
John
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Metro West is budgeted at $6.4 billion
EmrldPhoenix
This is only the amount to start construction. The total will be over $12.5 billion since it is 24km's of tunneling.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

The US has $20 trillion in debt and it's not panicking. As long as we retain our credit rating and the Aussie dollar doesn't, I don't know, hyper-inflate, it shouldn't be too much of an issue having debt. I think this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8HOWh8HPTo&t=1s does a much better job than me of explaining modern monetary theory.
Let's consider the alternative of not building SRL. Sure, we probably have Metro 2 and perhaps a couple more tollways and line extensions, but we still have a radial network and an absurd amount of people moving unnecessarily running through the city. Roads are at capacity throughout the city, buses are slowed down by the traffic and trams/light rail suffer from slow journey times. With a population of 8 million, it's just not sustainable to have everyone moving through the city centre or driving if they don't want to do that. Now I'm sure you'd probably be the anti-immigration type, but immigrants have built Australia, and will continue to do so. We're better off continuing to take them in while also upgrading infrastructure. If we get the balance right, we can really start to experience the benefits of having a medium population density in our cities.
Again, $50 billion is very expensive, however let's break it down. We have 30 years to build it, so that's just over $1.5 billion a year. At some stage there will be a Labor government in power in Canberra, who will probably be more likely to support the project, so you'd expect the Feds would chip in around $10 billion at least over the lifetime of the project. $5 billion is already on the table from the current mob, although it's unclear whether this will go towards what will eventually be SRL. In the end you'll have the state paying probably less than $1.5 billion a year, which is very manageable.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
What a turkey, in the 90s victoria's economy was about $200 billion GSP versus today (or just pre-COVID19) in the $450 billion mark. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_states_and_territories_by_gross_state_product#Historical_gross_state_product_(since_1989%E2%80%9390)

"Ermergehd debt levels are too high" is a useless argument without comparing it to the size of the economy - or even the population count.
The suburban rail loop project will never be built because it's simply too expensive and the VIC government will run out of credit and tax revenues particularly from stamp duty will fall. Here's an expert from Moody's 12 months ago (pre COVID19 twenty billion dollar spending spree):

Moody's singled out the Andrews government's giant suburban rail loop as a project that will challenge its treasury in the coming decades.

“Initial estimates for this project, at around $50 billion over a 30-year construction period, highlight the challenge the state will face in retaining current fiscal objectives over time, while working with the Commonwealth and other bodies to deliver such projects,” the Moody's report noted.

The increasing levels of debt, estimated at an average of $45 billion a year for the next four years, should be of concern to state treasurers, Moody's warns.


Debt isn't free money, it has to be paid back by subsequent generations of Victorians or Australians. Our debtors have to believe that we're good for it for us to keep borrowing money at low rates.
From your linked article:

But [John] Manning [VP of Moody's] said Victoria’s all-important AAA credit rating, which allows it to borrow money on good terms, remains safe and the debt the state was taking on was manageable.

Emphasis is mine. The article does go on to state that incomes need to increase to maintain this rating as well, which will certainly take a hit after the stamp duty losses and the pandemic. But that does not mean it is the end of the Victorian economy.

While I think the expected $50 billion is way too much to be expected of the state to pay alone, each individual part of the SRL is expected to cost in the range of $10-20 billion using napkin maths. This puts the entire project more in line with something like the Sydney Metro projects. Instead of 3 or 4 separate projects that will eventually join together in the case of Sydney Metro, Melbourne will have 1 big project split into pieces that serves much the same purpose.

For context, Sydney Metro Northwest cost ~$8.3 billion and Metro City and Southwest is expected to cost as much as $16.8 billion. Metro West is budgeted at $6.4 billion and Metro Greater West is budgeted at $11 billion. Overall, Sydney Metro will be at a cost of $42.5 billion for about 113km of track. SRL doesn't sound terribly out of place any more.

With how much stuff the state is trying to pay for, I'm surprised that there hasn't been as much talk about getting federal funds. The feds are splashing cash in Sydney on the Metro, but are hesitant to fund a similar project here. Sydney Metro Greater West, ie the new airport metro, is basically the same thing as MARL but without even an existing airport to connect to.

EDIT: Courtesy of @simstrain, Metro West will actually cost $12.5 billion. This takes the total cost to $48.6 billion.
EmrldPhoenix

SRL doesn't sound terribly out of place at all (and never has IMO).  To add to the Sydney list you have, it's the extension of the Greater West down to Macarthur, extending Westmead to the WSA, possibly extending from Bankstown westward and the like - there's plenty more to do as well up there.

The equivalent list would be SRL, MM2 and MARL plus a few tram projects for good measure.

5-10% of each of those costs (and any other rail project cost for that matter) is going to be money that doesn't need to be spent upfront on building either - it'll be cash to cover the maintenance and operations over a period of time (Perth's Elenbrook project is $2.1 billion but $800-900m of that is maintenance/operational costs over 50 years according to published data).

And on SRL specifically, say it does end up being $50 billion, it'll take 10-15 years to build the Cheltenham-Box Hill-Airport section.  If population growth in 2022 (when it's been mooted to start) goes back to something like pre-Corona, i.e. every year we're getting around 100k more people in the state, then by the time it's completed there'd be ~400-500k more taxpayers in Victoria adding to a larger pool of people who will benefit from loading up on debt to build the infrastructure.

people like don_dunstan appear to be incapable of thinking long-term.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The only part of Sydney Metro the Feds are funding is the just announced greater western metro. Cbd and south west metro has no federal funds and neither does metro west.

I have no problem with Victoria getting in to debt to pay off a viable piece of infrastructure. I understand Don looking at these numbers being talked about for Sydney and Melbourne's new rail systems and wondering how can it be viable but both Sydney and Melbourne are 5 times the size of Adelaide and so to both these states it really isn't that much money in the end.

Connecting many areas to the airport without having to go through the CBD is worthwhile but will it come at the cost of the metro 2 tunnel. Melbourne's CBD rail network needs massive untangling as it is a nightmare that nobody from out of town has any idea of understanding let alone many of it's own citizens.

My initial belief was that the project was being pushed forward by the Victorian Government because they have Penis envy and wanted the title of largest project in Australia from NSW but I no longer have this concern and only worry about how Melbourne fixes it's incredibly complicated network that shouldn't be complicated.
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
Melbourne's CBD rail network needs massive untangling as it is a nightmare that nobody from out of town has any idea of understanding let alone many of it's own citizens.

[...] only worry about how Melbourne fixes it's incredibly complicated network that shouldn't be complicated.
simstrain

So this has been considered by both private and public organisations.

The plan, as proposed by Rail Futures Institute's 30 Yr Plan as well as PTV's 2018 Transport Plan for Victoria and 2016 NDPMR refresh, is a reconfiguration of the City Loop. This is to occur post-Metro Tunnel, so Sunbury and Dandenong lines are not a concern.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/calls-for-major-city-loop-upgrade-the-equivalent-to-a-10-lane-freeway-20190912-p52qpe.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Development_Plan_Metropolitan_Rail#2018_Transport_for_Victoria_plan

https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/default-site/footer/legal-and-policies/growing-our-rail-network-2018-2025/5290c0d0b4/PTV_Network-Development-Plan_Metropolitan-Rail_Overview_2016update.pdf

See page 24 of the PTV link for an excellent visual aid.

As part of this, two short sets of tunnels are expected to be built. The first set connecting North Melbourne to Flagstaff, and the second connecting Richmond to Parliament. Through this new tunnel pair, Craigieburn and Frankston lines are set to merge into one line stopping at Parliament, Melbourne Central and Flagstaff.

As this happens, the Upfield Line would come out of the City Loop, and allow for through running to either Sandringham or to Glen Waverley/Alamein via Flinders St. Similarly, Werribee and Williamstown services are through routed to a new line, either Sandringham or Glen Waverley/Alamein as well. Details would be dependent on current and expected load figures to balance services.

This leaves the Clifton Hill and Burnely Loop Lines to operate as they are for the most part.

However there has been little word in official reports on how future lines to Airport, Melton and Wyndham Vale will integrate. While the Metro Tunnel would accommodate frequent services to any two of the destinations, the third would require a new path in the network.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The only part of Sydney Metro the Feds are funding is the just announced greater western metro. Cbd and south west metro has no federal funds and neither does metro west.

I have no problem with Victoria getting in to debt to pay off a viable piece of infrastructure. I understand Don looking at these numbers being talked about for Sydney and Melbourne's new rail systems and wondering how can it be viable but both Sydney and Melbourne are 5 times the size of Adelaide and so to both these states it really isn't that much money in the end.

Connecting many areas to the airport without having to go through the CBD is worthwhile but will it come at the cost of the metro 2 tunnel. Melbourne's CBD rail network needs massive untangling as it is a nightmare that nobody from out of town has any idea of understanding let alone many of it's own citizens.

My initial belief was that the project was being pushed forward by the Victorian Government because they have Penis envy and wanted the title of largest project in Australia from NSW but I no longer have this concern and only worry about how Melbourne fixes it's incredibly complicated network that shouldn't be complicated.
simstrain
Connecting many areas to the airport without having to go through the CBD is worthwhile but will it come at the cost of the metro 2 tunnel. Melbourne's CBD rail network needs massive untangling as it is a nightmare that nobody from out of town has any idea of understanding let alone many of it's own citizens.

I disagree as regards to complexity. By any measure the Sydney system is far more complex than Melbourne's. Indeed it is one of the most complex in the world with its range to stopping and express services. The trouble with Melbourne's is there are still numerous level crossings and it has to contend with another Operator running fairly intensive inter urban services using completely different plaftforms. Vlocities, Sprinters and old locos dragging even older coaching stock all diesel operated with varying abilities for acceleration.

Michael
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Mej I said "how Melbourne fixes it's incredibly complicated network that shouldn't be complicated." My meaning is that the network isn't complicated but because of how it is operated through the loop it becomes uncomprehensible.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
A somewhat interesting turn of events which may send shockwaves through Victorian Treasury:

Proud to be sworn in as the Minister for Suburban Rail Loop. Victoria’s biggest ever project which will change the way we move around forever - creating 10,000s jobs during construction and more jobs and services in Melbourne’s suburbs

Source: As stated on twitter today.
Jacinta Allan

Should we be nervous?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

A somewhat interesting turn of events which may send shockwaves through Victorian Treasury:

Proud to be sworn in as the Minister for Suburban Rail Loop. Victoria’s biggest ever project which will change the way we move around forever - creating 10,000s jobs during construction and more jobs and services in Melbourne’s suburbs

Source: As stated on twitter today.

Should we be nervous?
bevans
She's still the Minister for Transport Infrastructure as well.  Just spin really.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Mej I said "how Melbourne fixes it's incredibly complicated network that shouldn't be complicated." My meaning is that the network isn't complicated but because of how it is operated through the loop it becomes uncomprehensible.
simstrain
Yeah, you are right. And doesn't that show how poor Melbourne's Rail system is run. Taking a simple system and making it really complex.


Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Instead of spending billions on tunnelling and taking 30 + years to implement, why not do what Vancouver has done and build SkyRail. It can be built quickly and far cheaper.

Michael
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Instead of spending billions on tunnelling and taking 30 + years to implement, why not do what Vancouver has done and build SkyRail. It can be built quickly and far cheaper.

Michael
mejhammers1
Another rare juncture where you and I agree on something: Putting road or rail onto elevated sections is certainly much cheaper than tunneling but the problem is that people get really upset about the visual intrusion so politically its quite difficult - as Dan Andrews discovered with "Skyrail" sections of the Dandenong line.

We're also trying to decide how to complete the North-South motorway project here in SA - already there's a large section of it that's been done in a large elevated section (pictured) but that was through an industrial area so there were no objections - the rest will be through mostly residential so at the moment they're saying possibly a bored tunnel at great expense - personally I think elevated is not a bad option given considering the cost savings and you tend to forget its even there after a while.

  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
Instead of spending billions on tunnelling and taking 30 + years to implement, why not do what Vancouver has done and build SkyRail. It can be built quickly and far cheaper.

Michael
Another rare juncture where you and I agree on something: Putting road or rail onto elevated sections is certainly much cheaper than tunneling but the problem is that people get really upset about the visual intrusion so politically its quite difficult - as Dan Andrews discovered with "Skyrail" sections of the Dandenong line.

We're also trying to decide how to complete the North-South motorway project here in SA - already there's a large section of it that's been done in a large elevated section (pictured) but that was through an industrial area so there were no objections - the rest will be through mostly residential so at the moment they're saying possibly a bored tunnel at great expense - personally I think elevated is not a bad option given considering the cost savings and you tend to forget its even there after a while.

don_dunstan
I think elevated rail for Suburban Rail Loop is a great idea as it would be a lot cheaper and the community is more open to this, given the success of elevated rail along the Dandenong Rail corridor and in other areas of Melbourne for example. In the north and west this will be easier, the line could potentially run along the median of Western Ring Road and there is a lot of industrial areas.

I guess the section between Heidelberg and Doncaster could be done as elevated rail along Manningham Road but in more built up areas e.g eastern and south eastern suburbs this could be problematic given the built up residential built form and the line would have to run along major arterial roads, rather than a direct line, like a tunnel could achieve, so potentially the journey may be slower.

I do hope elevated sections to reduce costs are considered.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Instead of spending billions on tunnelling and taking 30 + years to implement, why not do what Vancouver has done and build SkyRail. It can be built quickly and far cheaper.

Michael
Another rare juncture where you and I agree on something: Putting road or rail onto elevated sections is certainly much cheaper than tunneling but the problem is that people get really upset about the visual intrusion so politically its quite difficult - as Dan Andrews discovered with "Skyrail" sections of the Dandenong line.

We're also trying to decide how to complete the North-South motorway project here in SA - already there's a large section of it that's been done in a large elevated section (pictured) but that was through an industrial area so there were no objections - the rest will be through mostly residential so at the moment they're saying possibly a bored tunnel at great expense - personally I think elevated is not a bad option given considering the cost savings and you tend to forget its even there after a while.

@don_dunstan
I think elevated rail for Suburban Rail Loop is a great idea as it would be a lot cheaper and the community is more open to this, given the success of elevated rail along the Dandenong Rail corridor and in other areas of Melbourne for example. In the north and west this will be easier, the line could potentially run along the median of Western Ring Road and there is a lot of industrial areas.

I guess the section between Heidelberg and Doncaster could be done as elevated rail along Manningham Road but in more built up areas e.g eastern and south eastern suburbs this could be problematic given the built up residential built form and the line would have to run along major arterial roads, rather than a direct line, like a tunnel could achieve, so potentially the journey may be slower.

I do hope elevated sections to reduce costs are considered.
TrackRailroad
Oh gawd another bunch of experts on Melbourne topology.

Don, you DO know better. Some serious house bulldozing  suggested.  There is no reservations within cooee of most of the SRL
I will not debate again your Eastlink fantasy.

Skyrail 50m in the air is what I hear with these routes. Such huge towers are not something to fade in the background and are very difficult/expensive.

North-South. What Springvale Rd? Its not a motorway, its a higher speed hill climb around Glen Waverly/Box Hill.
Manningham Rd is NOT flat. Some of the biggest hills in Melbourne, you're going up and down 100m.
MANY sections for the route of SRL have similar issues. You can't go around, there's just more hills.

SRL as tunnel specifically addresses the problems of residential bulldozer, hill climbing, no open space to re-purpose. It is not cheap, nor are the alternatives.

"Cheaper Sky Rail" is a ridiculous claim for an extremely difficult engineering project.

cheers
John
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Instead of spending billions on tunnelling and taking 30 + years to implement, why not do what Vancouver has done and build SkyRail. It can be built quickly and far cheaper.

Michael
Another rare juncture where you and I agree on something: Putting road or rail onto elevated sections is certainly much cheaper than tunneling but the problem is that people get really upset about the visual intrusion so politically its quite difficult - as Dan Andrews discovered with "Skyrail" sections of the Dandenong line.

We're also trying to decide how to complete the North-South motorway project here in SA - already there's a large section of it that's been done in a large elevated section (pictured) but that was through an industrial area so there were no objections - the rest will be through mostly residential so at the moment they're saying possibly a bored tunnel at great expense - personally I think elevated is not a bad option given considering the cost savings and you tend to forget its even there after a while.

@don_dunstan
I think elevated rail for Suburban Rail Loop is a great idea as it would be a lot cheaper and the community is more open to this, given the success of elevated rail along the Dandenong Rail corridor and in other areas of Melbourne for example. In the north and west this will be easier, the line could potentially run along the median of Western Ring Road and there is a lot of industrial areas.

I guess the section between Heidelberg and Doncaster could be done as elevated rail along Manningham Road but in more built up areas e.g eastern and south eastern suburbs this could be problematic given the built up residential built form and the line would have to run along major arterial roads, rather than a direct line, like a tunnel could achieve, so potentially the journey may be slower.

I do hope elevated sections to reduce costs are considered.
Oh gawd another bunch of experts on Melbourne topology.

Don, you DO know better. Some serious house bulldozing  suggested.  There is no reservations within cooee of most of the SRL
I will not debate again your Eastlink fantasy.

Skyrail 50m in the air is what I hear with these routes. Such huge towers are not something to fade in the background and are very difficult/expensive.

North-South. What Springvale Rd? Its not a motorway, its a higher speed hill climb around Glen Waverly/Box Hill.
Manningham Rd is NOT flat. Some of the biggest hills in Melbourne, you're going up and down 100m.
MANY sections for the route of SRL have similar issues. You can't go around, there's just more hills.

SRL as tunnel specifically addresses the problems of residential bulldozer, hill climbing, no open space to re-purpose. It is not cheap, nor are the alternatives.

"Cheaper Sky Rail" is a ridiculous claim for an extremely difficult engineering project.

cheers
John
justarider
Thank you for your explanation. Still to be convinced.

Michael
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

SRL as tunnel specifically addresses the problems of residential bulldozer, hill climbing, no open space to re-purpose. It is not cheap, nor are the alternatives.
"Cheaper Sky Rail" is a ridiculous claim for an extremely difficult engineering project.
cheers
John

---------
Thank you for your explanation. Still to be convinced.

Michael
mejhammers1
might be that the Business Case convinces some. Then again still some serious engineering problems to solve.

Eg from Doncaster Hill (highest in Melb) down to Banyule Flats( almost sea level) simultaneously getting under the NorthEast tunnel.

cheers
John
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
reubstar6
Attractive idea with one big caveat.

No way will it ever include a skyrail over the Yarra Valley. Elections are lost for a lot less.
Even rural punters , who rarely give a toss about Melbourne aesthetics, would think that a bridge too far.

PS  I deliberately said "skyrail" instead of "viaduct". That is the reality of Victoria politics for the foreseeable future

cheers
John
  Upven Locomotive Driver

It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
Attractive idea with one big caveat.

No way will it ever include a skyrail over the Yarra Valley. Elections are lost for a lot less.
Even rural punters , who rarely give a toss about Melbourne aesthetics, would think that a bridge too far.

PS  I deliberately said "skyrail" instead of "viaduct". That is the reality of Victoria politics for the foreseeable future

cheers
John
justarider
Do you mean the Yarra River? The Yarra Valley isn't usually what people refer to when talking about the area north of Templestowe.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
Attractive idea with one big caveat.

No way will it ever include a skyrail over the Yarra Valley. Elections are lost for a lot less.
Even rural punters , who rarely give a toss about Melbourne aesthetics, would think that a bridge too far.

PS  I deliberately said "skyrail" instead of "viaduct". That is the reality of Victoria politics for the foreseeable future

cheers
John
Do you mean the Yarra River? The Yarra Valley isn't usually what people refer to when talking about the area north of Templestowe.
Upven
You're right of course. People usually associate Yarra Valley with upstream from Templestowe and grapes.
But then , does the vineyard on the banks beneath the Ringwood line crossing at Burnley,  count?

I would consider the "valley" starts at Dights Falls.
The last bridge crossing built was the Eastern Freeway. These days that probably wouldn't have happened as a skyroad.

cheers
John
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
Attractive idea with one big caveat.

No way will it ever include a skyrail over the Yarra Valley. Elections are lost for a lot less.
Even rural punters , who rarely give a toss about Melbourne aesthetics, would think that a bridge too far.

PS  I deliberately said "skyrail" instead of "viaduct". That is the reality of Victoria politics for the foreseeable future

cheers
John
justarider
If you want to bankrupt Victoria (which its doing a good job of all by itself) then insisting on bored tunnels for everything is a good way of doing that.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
If you want to bankrupt Victoria (which its doing a good job of all by itself) then insisting on bored tunnels for everything is a good way of doing that.
don_dunstan
You say that as if bankruptcy is a bad thing. Means that you don't have to pay the debt back.

cheers
John

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