Plan for new River Rail link to connect Sydney’s south and west

 

News article: Plan for new River Rail link to connect Sydney’s south and west

The Georges River Council is making the case for a new rail line linking Kogarah with Parramatta, via Bexley North and Bankstown.

  NSWGR8022 Assistant Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Did not see this project coming for consideration but makes some sense as passengers could easily change between lines which they can only do now via the city circle.

$10b to install the line is a lot of money but could it work?

Plan for new River Rail link to connect Sydney’s south and west

Sponsored advertisement

  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The action for transport plan makes note of this connection. It will probably happen sooner or later but the question will be if it is ST or Metro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_railways_in_Sydney#/media/File:Action_for_Transport_2010.png

It would probably require lots of tunneling to achieve which is why it would cost $10 billion.
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
It'd better be Sydney Trains, metro would be pointless for a metro isolated rail link
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
It'd better be Sydney Trains, metro would be pointless for a metro isolated rail link
DCook
As it will be a completely segregated line without any direct connection to the existing Sydney Trains' network, it's more likely to be metro.  Metro is far better suited for this line through a more densely populated part of inner Sydney than the proposed Outer Western Metro linking St Marys to Badgerys Creek and ultimately to Macarthur and Schofields.  It should also have more stations so that it performs like a metro is typically meant to.  As it will also interchange with the Bankstown Metro and Metro West, it may be possible to connect directly with those lines to gain access to the existing maintenance centres.

However, it's a long way off and could be superseded by other proposals.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
I welcome this proposed line with open arms, I am curious how many new stations there would be though besides the proposed Roselands station.

If the line branches off the Illawarra Line at Hurstville, there should be a new station between there and Beverly Hills (no idea where it would go though, or what it would be called), then Beverly Hills, Roselands, Punchbowl, Bankstown, from there it's difficult to say, but it would be very important to create new stations as well as link existing ones.

How would such a line operation? would it shuttle between Hurstville and Parramatta? or run City-Parramatta in the most indirect way possible?

Either way, I welcome this with open arms, but I really hope we get some infrastructure outside of Sydney as well, now is the perfect opportunity, good luck rebuilding the economy if all the investment is in a place where no one can afford to live.


It'd better be Sydney Trains, metro would be pointless for a metro isolated rail link
As it will be a completely segregated line without any direct connection to the existing Sydney Trains' network, it's more likely to be metro.  Metro is far better suited for this line through a more densely populated part of inner Sydney than the proposed Outer Western Metro linking St Marys to Badgerys Creek and ultimately to Macarthur and Schofields.  It should also have more stations so that it performs like a metro is typically meant to.  As it will also interchange with the Bankstown Metro and Metro West, it may be possible to connect directly with those lines to gain access to the existing maintenance centres.

However, it's a long way off and could be superseded by other proposals.
Transtopic
True, but considering what has happened, are driverless trains built in India going to save the economy, I know I'm going to get a lot of slack for this comment, but we should be pushing for full employment





Driverless trains may mean a lower operating cost, but with statistics like this, should it really be the direction we are heading.

I would not however, be opposed to any metro-style proposals if they did not mean an overall reduction in the number of jobs being created.
  Totoro Station Master

@Ethan1395

Does Metro necessarily imply less jobs though?

You only have one driver and one guard on any given Sydney Trains service; you can still let the computer do the driving (with all the benefits of that) the human roles simply change to being “customer service reps”, (or even just two cleaners, in COVID times.)

At any rate, this looks like a pretty good idea, would be awesome to see some extension of the Parramatta LR to Epping too..
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
At any rate, this looks like a pretty good idea, would be awesome to see some extension of the Parramatta LR to Epping too..
Totoro
That will never happen, there are no possible locations for light rail unless the government was to resume anywhere between 200 to 700 houses, not to mention all the disruption it would cause. Trams never went to Epping due to the street plan and never will
There is almost no community support for any form of light rail

I am saying all this as a resident of the Epping/Carlingford area
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
At any rate, this looks like a pretty good idea, would be awesome to see some extension of the Parramatta LR to Epping too..
That will never happen, there are no possible locations for light rail unless the government was to resume anywhere between 200 to 700 houses, not to mention all the disruption it would cause. Trams never went to Epping due to the street plan and never will
There is almost no community support for any form of light rail

I am saying all this as a resident of the Epping/Carlingford area
I know that this is getting off-topic, but I agree.  I'm also a longstanding resident of the area and it never made sense to build a light rail line between Parramatta and Macquarie Park, which was the initial stated objective, via Carlingford and Epping.  In fact TfNSW originally proposed such a link via Carlingford, with no mention of Epping which is odd.  Perhaps they meant via the Carlingford Line.  They never thought this through and it eventually dawned on TfNSW that it wasn't feasible, either economically or because of some major construction challenges such as widening Carlingford Rd and crossing the Northern Rail Line through the heavily congested Epping Town Centre.  Building an underground link between Carlingford and Epping would be prohibitively expensive and not warranted for light rail.  Hence it will finish up terminating at Carlingford Station which is likely to be its permanent terminus.

To this day, I'm still dumbfounded why TfNSW completely ignored the findings of Parramatta Council's original feasibility study which recommended a Parramatta to Macquarie University light rail link from a converted Carlingford Line at Dundas to Macquarie University via Eastwood.  What is even more surprising, is that it wasn't even considered in the shortlist of options.  It is far more direct and faster than the circuitous route via Carlingford and Epping.

It had the advantage of being constructed wholly within the existing wide 6-lane with median Kissing Point Rd corridor and the Eastwood County Road reservation which has been in existence for 70 years.  Most of the corridor is already owned by the government and only minimal property resumptions would be required.  It beggars belief that in view of the earlier investigation and recommendation, that it wasn't even considered worthy enough as an option.  It appears to me that the overriding consideration was to utilise all of the existing Carlingford Line infrastructure, regardless of how relevant it was in the primary objective of constructing a direct light rail link between Parramatta and Macquarie Park.  With increasing speculation about whether the Parramatta Light Rail Stage II will proceed, it still leaves open the option of completing a direct light rail link between Parramatta and Macquarie University/Park via Eastwood.

Now getting back on track to the so called River Rail Link, it's unlikely that it would just terminate at Parramatta.  There are 2 options for it to continue on a north/south alignment through Parramatta where it would interchange with Metro West and the existing Parramatta Station.  One is to link with a proposed rail link, more likely metro, to Norwest and the other to Epping.  Perhaps it could be branched to both.

In the latter case, a more direct metro link between Parramatta and Macquarie Park via Eastwood should be considered as an option, as the utilisation of the Carlingford Line is no longer relevant once it's converted to light rail.  The Eastwood option provides the same connectivity as Epping, interchanging with the Northern Line and Metro Northwest at Macquarie University.  The major trip generators will be Parramatta and Macquarie University and that's where the focus should be.
  Totoro Station Master

Thanks all for your thoughts/insight on the concept of a Parramatta LR extension to Epping. FYI that was merely intended as a thought bubble in general support of other cross-city links, I just hadn’t realised how impossible that particular one was. Happy to be educated by Epping/Carlingford residents on that Smile

I quite like some of the alternate ideas raised by Transtopic too.


In any case, really happy to see the proposal for a Kogarah-Parramatta link that avoids the eastern CBD, it’s exactly the sort of thing we need in Sydney. I believe this was one of those long term / visionary dotted lines from the Future Transport 2056 plan so hopefully something will come from it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The Parramatta light rail might still make it along kissing point road to eastwood and macquarie centre as part of a stage 3.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I agree with Transtopic to use metro to hit these missing links around Sydney. With the issues the light rail went through vs how the metro is going I think this government will definitely look more towards metro then light rail in the future.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

The Parramatta light rail might still make it along kissing point road to eastwood and macquarie centre as part of a stage 3.
simstrain
no chance .. done the rat run .. too many up's and downs just for the bus service even more for any rail option .. would just use Carlingford Rd but have issue with the A28 crossing .. ie would just cost too much to fill Rutledge St's pot hole .
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The Parramatta light rail might still make it along kissing point road to eastwood and macquarie centre as part of a stage 3.
no chance .. done the rat run .. too many up's and downs just for the bus service even more for any rail option .. would just use Carlingford Rd but have issue with the A28 crossing .. ie would just cost too much to fill Rutledge St's pot hole .
viaprojects
If ever a Parramatta Light Rail Stage 3 from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood does come back onto the agenda, and that's by no means certain, then it is likely that it would be constructed in conjunction with the Eastwood County Road proposal in the wide centre median.  It would make sense to do both projects together as a major new transport corridor, linking the Western Suburbs to the Northern Suburbs.  

In the most recent plan for the County Road prepared in the mid-1990s, it was proposed to construct an arch bridge as part of the Rutledge St extension across the Brush Farm gully, linking it directly with the Stewart St and Marsden Rd intersection which was to be grade separated.  Grade separated intersections were also proposed at Blaxland Rd and Epping Rd.  I've got the detailed plans for the whole route.

Widening Carlingford Rd to accommodate light rail tracks isn't an option as it would no longer be feasible, if it ever was, because of the recent 5 storey apartment development at Epping.
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
The Parramatta light rail might still make it along kissing point road to eastwood and macquarie centre as part of a stage 3.
no chance .. done the rat run .. too many up's and downs just for the bus service even more for any rail option .. would just use Carlingford Rd but have issue with the A28 crossing .. ie would just cost too much to fill Rutledge St's pot hole .
Widening Carlingford Rd to accommodate light rail tracks isn't an option as it would no longer be feasible, if it ever was, because of the recent 5 storey apartment development at Epping.
Transtopic
It has never been feasible and never will, the amount of disruption it would cause would be worse than George street during the L2 construction
Carlingford road is home to more than 800 houses and apartments, a full shopping centre, 15 road interchanges and one major school
As I said earlier, there is no community support for an extension
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The Parramatta light rail might still make it along kissing point road to eastwood and macquarie centre as part of a stage 3.
no chance .. done the rat run .. too many up's and downs just for the bus service even more for any rail option .. would just use Carlingford Rd but have issue with the A28 crossing .. ie would just cost too much to fill Rutledge St's pot hole .
Widening Carlingford Rd to accommodate light rail tracks isn't an option as it would no longer be feasible, if it ever was, because of the recent 5 storey apartment development at Epping.
It has never been feasible and never will, the amount of disruption it would cause would be worse than George street during the L2 construction
Carlingford road is home to more than 800 houses and apartments, a full shopping centre, 15 road interchanges and one major school
As I said earlier, there is no community support for an extension
DCook
How do you know there is no community support for a light rail down Carlingford Road. This seems to be a Facebook type assumption where people make all sorts of wild claims without an iota of proof to support the claim.
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
The Parramatta light rail might still make it along kissing point road to eastwood and macquarie centre as part of a stage 3.
no chance .. done the rat run .. too many up's and downs just for the bus service even more for any rail option .. would just use Carlingford Rd but have issue with the A28 crossing .. ie would just cost too much to fill Rutledge St's pot hole .
Widening Carlingford Rd to accommodate light rail tracks isn't an option as it would no longer be feasible, if it ever was, because of the recent 5 storey apartment development at Epping.
It has never been feasible and never will, the amount of disruption it would cause would be worse than George street during the L2 construction
Carlingford road is home to more than 800 houses and apartments, a full shopping centre, 15 road interchanges and one major school
As I said earlier, there is no community support for an extension
How do you know there is no community support for a light rail down Carlingford Road. This seems to be a Facebook type assumption where people make all sorts of wild claims without an iota of proof to support the claim.
nswtrains
I am a resident of the area and have been for about 14 years, it is general knowledge in the Epping Carlingford area that light rail will NEVER go down Carlingford road
To rest my case, I present this image showing the location in question.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/188796207@N07/50028115532/in/dateposted/
Community support or not, light rail will not go down Carlingford road
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I agree that there will be no light rail down carlingford road but not entirely because of the reason Dcook mentioned. Sure that does play a part but the difficulty of light rail construction vs metro construction is likely to see no more light rail projects after the Parramatta light rail is done. This river rail link is much more like the type of project to be funded going forward. The CSELR has shown that maybe they didn't make such a bad call in getting rid of the trams in the 1960's. Opening day and the slow speed of street running light rail is really what opened my eyes up to this fact. I think that many like myself saw the inner west light rail and thought the new system would be great but really we should have been looking to the slow street bit of the inner west line as to why it isn't such a good idea for Sydney.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
KK this has gone off topic into the Carlingford line discussion so bringing it back on topic.

The council proposal puts the line going from Kogarah to the north west - why exclude Hurstville from this?

Also, re connectivity, if it could be done such that the Illawarra line (and Cronulla for that matter) could have services turn left and go to Parramatta (and beyond).  Even if these looped off at Kogarah and took a little bit of a circular route around the St Georges area, the connectivity benefits could be substantial (both relieving pressure at Central and attracting new passenger journeys to/from South and West .
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

KK this has gone off topic into the Carlingford line discussion so bringing it back on topic.

The council proposal puts the line going from Kogarah to the north west - why exclude Hurstville from this?

Also, re connectivity, if it could be done such that the Illawarra line (and Cronulla for that matter) could have services turn left and go to Parramatta (and beyond).  Even if these looped off at Kogarah and took a little bit of a circular route around the St Georges area, the connectivity benefits could be substantial (both relieving pressure at Central and attracting new passenger journeys to/from South and West .
james.au

I'm not sure why Hurstville was excluded as it would be quite an important connection for the west.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Hurstville should be the starting point and connecting further west then bexley north on the T8 as well. My placement for the line would be to start at Hurstville then Beverly Hills, Roselands, Wiley Park, Greenacre, Chullora, Flemington, Olympic Park Metro station then rhodes and further north to macquarrie park/uni.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Hurstville should be the starting point and connecting further west then bexley north on the T8 as well. My placement for the line would be to start at Hurstville then Beverly Hills, Roselands, Wiley Park, Greenacre, Chullora, Flemington, Olympic Park Metro station then rhodes and further north to macquarrie park/uni.
simstrain
Id want to see same train service from the Illawarra/Cronulla to Parramatta (and possibly beyond).  Given alignments and tunnels im not sure how we would get this service to go through Hurstville.  But its not impossible.

Their alignment looks to go Kogarah, Kingsgrove, Roselands, Bankstown, Villawood, Guildford, Granville, Parramatta.  Not sure if using the Bankstown-Lidcombe section of track might be a cheaper option?  Though doesn't connect the Villawood-Granville areas (not sure if they're worth connecting or not TBH but it could be a capacity issue on Lidcombe-Parramatta too).  Also not sure if Metro is going to use Bankstown-Regents Park section or not either, time will tell.

Connecting to Strathfield then Parramatta might be a better idea too - allows northern connections too which in itself would take more journeys out of Central that may not need to go that way.  That might be part of a case for another north-south corridor though.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I thought I might have a crack at a cut price River Line.

It's a hybrid LRT system, with high floor LRT vehicles.  Apart from the 11km line shown below, with is 50% single track designed for 10min frequencies, with 3km of street running.  Penshurst St (with grade sparated crossings of Forrest Rd and Sony Creek Rd), then in the East Hills rail corridor, follows Salt Pan Creek to Bankstown, then up RestWell St.

A new HR UP platform is built at Cabramatta, allowing the current Down platform to be a single track turnback.  

The system operates two route:

(A) Lidcombe to Hurstville (via Berala, Regents Park, Birrong, Yagoona, Bankstown, Cantebury Rd (new), Riverwood, Narwee, Stony Creek rd (new), Penshurst, Hurstville
(B) Cabramatta - Bankstown


Here is my route concept for phase 1:


  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I thought I might have a crack at a cut price River Line ...
djf01

Phase 2 extends the system along the Western Line rail corridor to Parramatta.

The route is 50% single track, requiring new (single) track between Granville and Parramatta, Lidcombe and Auburn, but makes use of (re-aligned) existing roads to create a passing lane between Granville and Auburn.

Auburn Platform 2 is exumed to make space of a re-aligned main west UP.  Harris Park platforms 3&4 removed and the station purely serviced by LRT.

The routes are:
Parramatta - Hurstville (Parr, Harris Park, Granville, Clyde, Auburn, Berala, Regents Park Birong, Yagoona, Bankstown, Cantebury rd, Riverwood, Narwee, Stony Creek Rd, Penshurst, Hurtville)

Cabramatta - Lidcombe



  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I think an LRT would miss the connection potential for travellers from further afield.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
I thought I might have a crack at a cut price River Line.
djf01
I don't think it will be practical to branch off at Penshurst, there is an old siding at Hurstville across the road from Centrelink, it would be appropriate to reuse this siding and have it lead to a dive to an underground line underneath King Georges Road to Beverly Hills (with a station in between the two),
and then underground to a station underneath the Roselands Shopping Centre,  and then underground to Punchbowl (whether or not the line will surface here would depend on a number of factors) and then to Bankstown (with a new intermediate station at Mount Lewis),

from there, there is a number of options including using the existing alignment between Bankstown and Parramatta via Regents Park (there needs to be a speed improvement through Sefton Park Junction),
or continuing with a new route, I would suggest continuing west through Yagoona West and Bass Hill, then to Villawood (possibly with another intermediate station between Bass Hill and Villawood),
from Villawood, the line should continue with a station at Old Guildford, and joining the Main South at Guildford to Parramatta and maybe beyond.

Can't draw on a map right now, but basically a stopping pattern like this:
Bondi Junction, all to (including Erskineville and St Peters) Hurstville, somewhere, Beverly Hills, Roselands, Punchbowl, Mount Lewis, Bankstown, Yagoona West, Bass Hill, somewhere, Villawood, Old Guildford, Guildford, all to Parramatta.

Such a line could be a continuation of permanent Huntsville locals, making one Illawarra track pair being reserved for Hurstville locals, and another for express trains running Bondi Junction, all to Redfern, Sydenham, Wolli Creek, (possibly Rockdale and Kogarah) Hurstville, all to Sutherland, all to Cronulla or Waterfall.
New platforms at Wolli Creek would be needed.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: james.au, Transtopic

Display from: