Plan for new River Rail link to connect Sydney’s south and west

 

News article: Plan for new River Rail link to connect Sydney’s south and west

The Georges River Council is making the case for a new rail line linking Kogarah with Parramatta, via Bexley North and Bankstown.

  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Id want to see same train service from the Illawarra/Cronulla to Parramatta (and possibly beyond).  Given alignments and tunnels im not sure how we would get this service to go through Hurstville.  But its not impossible.

Their alignment looks to go Kogarah, Kingsgrove, Roselands, Bankstown, Villawood, Guildford, Granville, Parramatta.  Not sure if using the Bankstown-Lidcombe section of track might be a cheaper option?  Though doesn't connect the Villawood-Granville areas (not sure if they're worth connecting or not TBH but it could be a capacity issue on Lidcombe-Parramatta too).  Also not sure if Metro is going to use Bankstown-Regents Park section or not either, time will tell.

Connecting to Strathfield then Parramatta might be a better idea too - allows northern connections too which in itself would take more journeys out of Central that may not need to go that way.  That might be part of a case for another north-south corridor though.
james.au

screw this same train crap. Changing trains is perfectly acceptable and you need to forget about having trains go everywhere from everywhere. That isn't possible or efficient. You can forget about using the existing ST network as well as if this option goes ahead it will be a north south metro connecting a whole stack of lines and areas.

Georges river councils alignment is what is beneficial for Kogarah and not what is beneficial for Sydney. The line going directly north at Olympic park metro with a change for metro west not only makes 30 minutes to Parramatta possible but also further north to macquarrie uni as well. This is much more beneficial for Sydney then running yet another train line to Parramatta.

Sponsored advertisement

  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Will comment more tomorrow, but here is a very rough sketch of a potential line:



@simstrain raises a good point and is something I need to look more into. Changing trains is the norm for many people, just as long as the connections are timed appropriately and no one needs to take a three-seat journey across a small distance.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
There have been previous proposals over the last couple of decades for a north/south cross-regional rail link between Macquarie Park and Hurstville which basically followed the A3 arterial road corridor.  From Macquarie Park it followed the A3 via Top Ryde and Rhodes, with two alternative route options from Rhodes to Hurstville via Sydney Olympic Park or Burwood.  That seems to have slipped off the radar since the Parramatta to Kogarah metro option has come onto the agenda, although it could still be resurrected as an additional cross-regional link.

Although Hurstville is the major strategic centre in the South District of the Eastern Harbour City under the Three Cities plan, Kogarah has recently gained more prominence as a major strategic Health and Education centre.  However, Hurstville overall is still a much larger centre than Kogarah and warrants priority for improved rail links.  It would have just as much potential for employment as Kogarah.  I'd equate Kogarah compared with Hurstville as Westmead to Parramatta.  From my observation, the only reason why Kogarah has come onto the agenda is because it fits in with a future metro link from the CBD to Miranda which bypasses Hurstville.  After reading the report on the Kogarah to Parramatta Rail Link prepared on behalf of the Georges River Council, it seemed to be equivocating between whether Kogarah or Hurstville should be the terminus.  I'd prefer Hurstville.

Aside from being the major regional centre, Hurstville would be a more convenient interchange for commuters from the Illawarra and South Coast Lines who want to travel to Parramatta, Bankstown or Macquarie Park compared with an indirect route interchanging at Kogarah.  Even commuters from the Cronulla Line would have just as much a direct route to Parramatta via Hurstville as via Kogarah with one less interchange, i.e. changing only at Hurstville via Sydney Trains instead of Miranda and Kogarah via the metro.

As much as I am a supporter of the Sydney Trains network, these new cross-regional rail links, whether from Hurstville or Kogarah to Parramatta and Macquarie Park, will be stand alone metro lines without any direct connection to the existing network. I expect that any future Labor government would adopt the same policy.

At the end of the day, the longer term rail links are just lines on a map and could be changed at the whim of a future government, of whatever political persuasion.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
screw this same train crap. Changing trains is perfectly acceptable and you need to forget about having trains go everywhere from everywhere. That isn't possible or efficient. You can forget about using the existing ST network as well as if this option goes ahead it will be a north south metro connecting a whole stack of lines and areas.

Georges river councils alignment is what is beneficial for Kogarah and not what is beneficial for Sydney. The line going directly north at Olympic park metro with a change for metro west not only makes 30 minutes to Parramatta possible but also further north to macquarrie uni as well. This is much more beneficial for Sydney then running yet another train line to Parramatta.
simstrain
So youre suggesting that passengers from the Illawarra (a residential/dormitory area) change 1, at Hurstville/Kogarah and 2, at Olympic Park, to get to Parramatta (a big and upcoming employment hub)?

Sure, i bet you'll find most people will go straight into Central and then out again instead of change twice.

Changing trains is not something that is to to be engineered out of everywhere - it for sure has its place.  But given the Illawarra and Cronulla lines have surplus capacity, which will be also provided on this new link, running trains from these places to places where people want to go will be more attractive than two stop services.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

At the end of the day, the longer term rail links are just lines on a map and could be changed at the whim of a future government, of whatever political persuasion.
Transtopic

Call me cynical (or even more cynical than usual), but the ability to draw a line anywhere on a map is perhaps the biggest "advantage" of Metro.  Everyone of influence supports the project, as all hold out hope the project might be redirected to benefit them.

If the project is on the surface, it's constrained by existing geography, and thus no-one is bothered "lobbying" to make changes which can't be made.

IMHO, rail is an absurd mode for these cross city links, especially in a city like Sydney.  Rail's advantages are volume and (to a lesser extent) speed.  Metros, and out eclectic HR system, forego the advantages of speed attempting to address the issue of inadequate volume in a city which (by world standards) has a low population density.

To me, LRT makes sense for sub-centres, and Parramatta as an LRT hub is logical enough to me.

For cross city links in general I think the best mode are (primarily) on street busses.  But that is not usually how our bus routes are allocated, in part because of the mix of private and public ownership and geographical distribution of operators.

In picking LRT as the mode for my "River Line", I'll confess to being influenced by the original River Line operated by New Jersey Transit, a hybrid system that is a cross between a Melbourne Tram route and CountryLink.  But I think light rail works for this scheme because of the additional objectives:


The system I suggested above has three main goals:
  • A cross city link
  • Amplification of HR on the Main west without investing in HR
  • Cleaning up the mess of HR left by the Bankstown Metro, converting the existing rail into feeder routes with a more suitable mode (ie cheaper, lower capacity, but higher frequency)
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

So youre suggesting that passengers from the Illawarra (a residential/dormitory area) change 1, at Hurstville/Kogarah and 2, at Olympic Park, to get to Parramatta (a big and upcoming employment hub)?

Sure, i bet you'll find most people will go straight into Central and then out again instead of change twice.

Changing trains is not something that is to to be engineered out of everywhere - it for sure has its place.  But given the Illawarra and Cronulla lines have surplus capacity, which will be also provided on this new link, running trains from these places to places where people want to go will be more attractive than two stop services.
james.au

This line is not for the Illawarra and it will be a metro and not part of the ST network. If your from the Illawarra and want to go to Central and then catch another train to Parramatta then be my guest. Nothing to stop the Illawarra resident from doing so but if you want to get to macquarrie uni and other places on the northern line then this service will be better off being a north south metro connecting to all of the east west lines rather then just building another rail line to Parramatta.

There is no spare capacity on the illawarra line either and I have no idea where you are getting that idea from.

The other thing is that the line could go south from Hurstville to Miranda and/or Caringbah. From Macquarrie park/uni the line could then head east to Gordon, Frenches forest, Brookvale and Dee why.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
This line proposal is for a metro line, but the broader picture here is something that connects south to west, that a link in a similar corridor would achieve, over and above a separate piece of infrastructure.  I won't go into it anymore as ive said my part for now.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I don't think that there is any doubt that future rail links in the Inner Sydney Region, whether metro or HR, will be by necessity underground.  The only exception would be amplification of the existing HR network where the existing surface rail corridor allows it, such as areas reserved for future quadruplication.  I can't see a future for longer distance cross-regional LRT links because of the limited availability of surface route options and it would be just too slow compared with an underground rail option.  Mixed street running for LRT should be avoided unless it can be segregated from vehicular traffic and there are very few options where that is possible.  One of the few options where that would be feasible is an LRT link from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood along the wide Kissing Point Rd and Eastwood County Road corridors.  There are not too many others that I can think of.  If it has to be underground, then it might as well be a metro or HR.

Getting back to the topic in discussion, there's no reason why separate cross-regional rail links, most likely metro, couldn't be constructed linking Hurstville to both Parramatta and Macquarie Park.  In the latter case, I'd prefer a route via Campsie and Burwood rather than SOP.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Getting back to the topic in discussion, there's no reason why separate cross-regional rail links, most likely metro, couldn't be constructed linking Hurstville to both Parramatta and Macquarie Park.  In the latter case, I'd prefer a route via Campsie and Burwood rather than SOP.
Transtopic

There is no metro west connection at Burwood and both of the stations you mentioned are way to close to the CBD. The reason why Olympic park makes sense is because it is one stop to Parramatta from there on metro west. Hurstville to Oly Park is probably a 20 minute trip on a new metro and then it is only 5 minutes to Parramatta. I know I said Wiley Park but it could just as easily be Lakemba although at Wiley park it allows a straighter run to Greenacre, Flemington and Olympic Park.

You could also hit Wentworth point instead of Rhodes and then West Ryde, Denistone east, Macquarrie park, Gordon, Frenchs Forrest, Brookevale and Dee Why.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: james.au, Transtopic

Display from: