Baxter Electrification

 
  route14 Chief Commissioner

There isn't even a bus service to get tourists from the Penguin Parade to the ferry wharf to connect with the extra ferry service on Friday nights.  The extra ferry itself connects with the extra Friday night up Stony Point train, though.

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  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I was under the impression the new yard at Kananook was going to be the maintenance centre for the Frankston line.
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
I was under the impression the new yard at Kananook was going to be the maintenance centre for the Frankston line.
Fatty
Kananook is currently being built only as a storage facility, but there is reserved space for a maintenance facility if required.

It seems that if a Baxter facility is not built, they could add maintenance facilities. Alternatively, if Baxter is built then they could add more space for storage.

https://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/media/publications/kananook-train-storage-facility-april-2019
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Ideally, and perhaps as originally intended, Stony Point trains should connect with the ferry to provide PT to Phillip Island.  Doesn't work that way though.  If the services were co-ordinated, and IF the ferry used myki, would there be more pax using Stony Point?
Lad_Porter
If we are going to do that we would need a myki-ticketed bus service travelling around Phillip Island to connect with the ferry, otherwise the passengers coming off the ferry can't go anywhere besides Cowes (besides taking a taxi or Uber, of course).
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I was under the impression the new yard at Kananook was going to be the maintenance centre for the Frankston line.
Kananook is currently being built only as a storage facility, but there is reserved space for a maintenance facility if required.

It seems that if a Baxter facility is not built, they could add maintenance facilities. Alternatively, if Baxter is built then they could add more space for storage.

https://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/media/publications/kananook-train-storage-facility-april-2019
EmrldPhoenix
From what I've seen they're adding maintenance facilities now.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

I was under the impression the new yard at Kananook was going to be the maintenance centre for the Frankston line.
Kananook is currently being built only as a storage facility, but there is reserved space for a maintenance facility if required.

It seems that if a Baxter facility is not built, they could add maintenance facilities. Alternatively, if Baxter is built then they could add more space for storage.

https://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/media/publications/kananook-train-storage-facility-april-2019
From what I've seen they're adding maintenance facilities now.
Fatty
Not at this stage, this is all driver facilities, train control, cleaner facilities and a substation. Baxter will be built and will function as the primary maintenance facility for the Frankston Line, similar to Craigieburn and Pakenham East. Kananook will likely be a light maintenance facility, dealing with minor issues that can be fixed overnight; Window replacement, lights, graffiti and vandalism removal. This is what is being built out at Calder Park. All major maintenance; bogies, wheel wear etc to be done out at Baxter.

There is a fair bit of land at Kananook but not enough for a major facility. Craigieburn & Pakenham East both occupy many hectares of land and are built out in the middle of no where to allow for 24/7 operations. This is what will be required when Frankston becomes standalone in 2025.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

This is what will be required when Frankston becomes standalone in 2025.
Lockie91

Where does the Frankston line currently get its trains from? Is it self sufficient, or rather could it be self sufficient? I know that it is grouped with the Werribee line so it probably gets a few from Newport.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
This is what will be required when Frankston becomes standalone in 2025.

Where does the Frankston line currently get its trains from? Is it self sufficient, or rather could it be self sufficient? I know that it is grouped with the Werribee line so it probably gets a few from Newport.
reubstar6
Stabling sidings at Frankston, Seaford (formerly located at Carrum) and Mordialloc.

Developers would probably like to see Mordialloc sidings abolished as part of future level crossing grade separation and Frankston's sidings rationalized, with abolished sidings relocated to Baxter.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

This is what will be required when Frankston becomes standalone in 2025.

Where does the Frankston line currently get its trains from? Is it self sufficient, or rather could it be self sufficient? I know that it is grouped with the Werribee line so it probably gets a few from Newport.
reubstar6
Trains for Frankston are stabled at Newport (this being the major) 4 at Mordialloc, 4 at Frankston, currently 2 at Kananook. In comparison Sunbury has 4, Calder Park 8, Watergardens 4. Double the stabling for a line that only has a 20/40 minute frequency compared to Frankston's 10.

The majority of trains come from Newport as Frankston is part of the Cross City Group. But only part of it. Half of the services run via the City Loop and will never continue on to Werribee. These Loop services return out to Frankston or become Caulfield Group services and head out to Dandenong. This is visa versa as well, with some Dandenong services running the loop to become Frankston services. Now, a couple of Werribee services will run out to Sandringham to balance the timetable (just not Xtraps) as half of Frankston goes via the Loop, this makes TT a nightmare. Early morning UP services come out of Melbourne Yard.

Self Sufficient the Frankston Line is not, as it has no major stabling, services come from all over the place. There is also a lot of empty car movements to get services in the right place. Couple of sets will run empty to Frankston from Kananook & Mordialloc to form AM & PM Peak services. Empty Cars from Kananook/Frankston to form the legacy short starts at Carrum. Mordialloc also has a couple of short starts.  

Then you have services that will run out to Craigieburn/Westall for Maintenance.  

All in all its a bloody mess. Baxter is about simplifying operations on the line and making it standalone. Its own fleet, with Maintenance and Stabling to run the timetable.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I have always wondered, the Mordialloc shuttles seem to be in the peak direction only.  How do the rollingstocks balance?
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
This is what will be required when Frankston becomes standalone in 2025.

Where does the Frankston line currently get its trains from? Is it self sufficient, or rather could it be self sufficient? I know that it is grouped with the Werribee line so it probably gets a few from Newport.
Trains for Frankston are stabled at Newport (this being the major) 4 at Mordialloc, 4 at Frankston, currently 2 at Kananook. In comparison Sunbury has 4, Calder Park 8, Watergardens 4. Double the stabling for a line that only has a 20/40 minute frequency compared to Frankston's 10.

Lockie91

Always 6 stabled at Kananook when I go past.
  Richard stroker Junior Train Controller

Just drove past kananook , six new roads , track and ballast down. Hanging the overhead wires
  Richard stroker Junior Train Controller

Just drove past kananook , six new roads , track and ballast down. Hanging the overhead wires
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Recent updates now coming to the forefront.  As suspected this initiative will be reduced in scope for whatever reason.  Just get on with it and get the entire line done. FFS

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/report-backs-shorter-rail-extension


A business case looking into duplicating and electrifying the train line to Baxter was completed last year.

The project has since been at a standstill, with $225 million in funding committed by the federal government but none committed by the state government (“Rail extension at a standstill”, The Times, 30/3/2020).

Since the completion of the business case an advisory committee has been set up to explore the future of the project and make a recommendation to Infrastructure Australia, an independent body which advises all levels of government on infrastructure projects.
Somebody

Another project which has been federally funded and has not progressed under the management of Jacinta Allan.  Why have they not started this project with the funding already available?
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Recent updates now coming to the forefront.  As suspected this initiative will be reduced in scope for whatever reason.  Just get on with it and get the entire line done. FFS

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/report-backs-shorter-rail-extension


A business case looking into duplicating and electrifying the train line to Baxter was completed last year.

The project has since been at a standstill, with $225 million in funding committed by the federal government but none committed by the state government (“Rail extension at a standstill”, The Times, 30/3/2020).

Since the completion of the business case an advisory committee has been set up to explore the future of the project and make a recommendation to Infrastructure Australia, an independent body which advises all levels of government on infrastructure projects.

Another project which has been federally funded and has not progressed under the management of Jacinta Allan.  Why have they not started this project with the funding already available?
bevans


For what it's worth, in the lead-up to the 2018 Vic state election, Donna Bauer (Lib candidate for Carrum) let slip at a public meeting that if the Libs won govt they were also only extending to Langwarrin rather than through to Baxter.

Not sure what's up with all this, but at any rate, this report indicates that this has been the plan from both parties for quite a while - they just don't want to tell the public this.

EDIT: Plus the federal Libs actually cut the federal funding for it in the 2019 budget anyway.
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
For what it's worth, in the lead-up to the 2018 Vic state election, Donna Bauer (Lib candidate for Carrum) let slip at a public meeting that if the Libs won govt they were also only extending to Langwarrin rather than through to Baxter.

Not sure what's up with all this, but at any rate, this report indicates that this has been the plan from both parties for quite a while - they just don't want to tell the public this.

EDIT: Plus the federal Libs actually cut the federal funding for it in the 2019 budget anyway.
Adogs

So I've read through the committee report and have some thoughts.

Firstly, and most notably, this report was completed without the use of the Baxter electrification business case. The federal government has been holding on to it since October 2019 and no-one has been able to see it. This report has used the price of similar projects to estimate costs.

Next, the committee has stated 2 preferred options. The cheaper being full duplication to a new Langwarrin station (Option 4). The second more expensive option is full duplication to Baxter, but without any stabling (Option 5).

With the completion of the Kananook sidings, Baxter stabling is not necessary for quite some time yet and so the committee has recommended against new stabling.

Both of these options have considerable support, however the MorPen Shire opposes the Baxter electrification (Option 5) for some reason. However, they have this on their website indicating support for electrification to Hastings:

https://www.mornpen.vic.gov.au/About-Us/News-Media-Publications/Initiatives-and-Current-Issues/Electrification-of-rail-to-Hastings

Makes no sense, but that's local politics at it again. The committee has addressed future extensions to Hastings as a potential part 2 of this project, but the low densities past Baxter mean this is not within the scope of the report.

Option 4 to Langwarrin has an estimated cost of ~$403 million, while Option 5 to Baxter would expect to cost ~$551 million. These costs include level crossing removals at all 6 crossings between Baxter and Frankston and the relocation of Leawarra station.

If these costs are similar to those found in the business case, I do not see why the fully electrification and duplication to Baxter should be delayed by either the state or federal governments, especially considering the cost per km drops from $78million/km in Option 4 to $69million/km with Option 5.

At this point, the fate of the project currently sits with the Minister for Urban Infrastructure, Alan Tudge.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Both of these options have considerable support, however the MorPen Shire opposes the Baxter electrification (Option 5) for some reason. However, they have this on their website indicating support for electrification to Hastings:

https://www.mornpen.vic.gov.au/About-Us/News-Media-Publications/Initiatives-and-Current-Issues/Electrification-of-rail-to-Hastings

Makes no sense, but that's local politics at it again. The committee has addressed future extensions to Hastings as a potential part 2 of this project, but the low densities past Baxter mean this is not within the scope of the report.
EmrldPhoenix
Perhaps Mornington Peninsula Shire is concerned that if the service is electrified to Baxter then there is a risk that the Sprinter service to Hastings and beyond might be discontinued.

Reading the report from Committee for Frankston it seems that all of the options only discuss Sprinter services running as far as Hastings in the future, there is no mention of Bittern and Crib Point.  Presumably the loss of services to Bittern and Crib Point is of no concern to this Frankston group.

Ultimately Local Government and the Federal Government can suggest what they like but it is up to the State Government to decide what actually gets built.

Ross
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Option 4 to Langwarrin has an estimated cost of ~$403 million, while Option 5 to Baxter would expect to cost ~$551 million. These costs include level crossing removals at all 6 crossings between Baxter and Frankston and the relocation of Leawarra station.

If these costs are similar to those found in the business case, I do not see why the fully electrification and duplication to Baxter should be delayed by either the state or federal governments, especially considering the cost per km drops from $78 million/km in Option 4 to $69 million/km with Option 5.

At this point, the fate of the project currently sits with the Minister for Urban Infrastructure, Alan Tudge.
EmrldPhoenix

Isn't this the real issue with anything Victoria does?  Why does Victoria see the need to increase the scope of any project beyond the realm of the funding promises?  The project really only calls for electrification (IMHO) to Stony Point.  It does not require duplication and does not require any stabling to be built.

Time and time again Victoria takes what should be a simple project and escalates it with add ins which make it hard to get funding for.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

Isn't this the real issue with anything Victoria does?  Why does Victoria see the need to increase the scope of any project beyond the realm of the funding promises?  The project really only calls for electrification (IMHO) to Stony Point.  It does not require duplication and does not require any stabling to be built.

Time and time again Victoria takes what should be a simple project and escalates it with add ins which make it hard to get funding for.
"bevans"
I
IMHO even thinking about sparks to Stony Point is a guarantee for option 6 = shut it dowm.

Just think through the idea of sparks.
It would be a Frankston train continiung to the end of the line.  All SIX carriages.
What a waste, let alone having to extend the platform at every station. And then of course all the signalling has to be re-done, boom gates installed, etc etc.
And somewhere need to fit  a crossing loop or two big enough, because they need train sets back in service quick smart for the real passenger demand UP from Frankston.
Did I mention that there is no stabling - oops. Where to park the extra sets that will be required to keep the Franners time table status quo, let alone increased TPH?

cheers
John
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech

Isn't this the real issue with anything Victoria does?  Why does Victoria see the need to increase the scope of any project beyond the realm of the funding promises?  The project really only calls for electrification (IMHO) to Stony Point.  It does not require duplication and does not require any stabling to be built.

Time and time again Victoria takes what should be a simple project and escalates it with add ins which make it hard to get funding for.
bevans

I wonder myself if this has happened with the Airport Line costs which appear very very high for an above ground system to an airport with 15kms mac of track and overhead,   Victoria try and throw in the kitchen sink with these projects hoping to get more and more funding from the feds.

This happened for the RRL where bendigo line upgrades were included in the Geelong works.
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
We have to keep in mind that the Stony Point line is ~30km long. The Frankston to Baxter section is only 8km.

Full electrification of the line without duplication would result in a crippled service not dissimilar from the current operations, with a maximum operation of 2tph. Therefore, duplication needs to occur to ensure a high level of operation past Frankston.

If the line is electrified and duplicated to Baxter, this reduces the non-electrified length by 8km, and also cuts 30 min from the timetabled operations of the Stony Point line from the current 1hr trip from Frankston to Stony Point. There is potential here for increased services on the Stony Point line concurrent with improved electrified services to Baxter.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
We have to keep in mind that the Stony Point line is ~30km long. The Frankston to Baxter section is only 8km.

Full electrification of the line without duplication would result in a crippled service not dissimilar from the current operations, with a maximum operation of 2tph. Therefore, duplication needs to occur to ensure a high level of operation past Frankston.

If the line is electrified and duplicated to Baxter, this reduces the non-electrified length by 8km, and also cuts 30 min from the timetabled operations of the Stony Point line from the current 1hr trip from Frankston to Stony Point. There is potential here for increased services on the Stony Point line concurrent with improved electrified services to Baxter.
EmrldPhoenix
I entirely agree, the line needs to be electrified to Baxter and duplicated from Frankston to Baxter to offer a decent frequent service people will actually use, e.g every 10 minutes in the day. No point to do it cheaply and electrify a single track with a 20-30 minute frequency, which would result in more people travelling to Frankston and Kananook for a more frequent service.

Given Monash University Peninsula, Frankston Hospital, the vast housing around Karingal, Frankston South, Langwarrin and potential for park and ride at Baxter, close to Peninsula Link and to attract commuters from the Mornington  Peninsula, the line should be electrified to Baxter, not Langwarrin in my view and would be well used. Plus there should be room for stabling and maintenance yards at Baxter.

If there is a political will,  and further federal government support, which was gained previously, I believe the government could start on this as soon as possible and finish it before 2026. just in time before the state election!
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

The reality is this.

The Frankston line needed a stabling and maintenance facility as Metro looked to untangle the web of lines such that each individual cross-city route could have it's own facilities. The stabling the line did have was in areas that could easily be developed into housing and was quite space constrained, ie they needed more, may as well concentrate it in one location.

The line all the way to Frankston is housing, there is no green fields to build in. But just down the line in Baxter is the first oppurtunity to do so. So if the stabling goes in at Baxter, then the electrification follows. And with electrification comes metro services yadda yadda.

Baxter wasn't chosen because it was the ideal location for a metro line, it was chosen because it was the closest point to Frankston that had room for the required facilities.

Now the question becomes, do you extend the electrification to Hastings or Stony Point.

And just because the Metro can go to the end of the line doesn't mean it needs to (can run every 10 mins to Baxter or Hastings, every 20 mins to Stony Point).
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

Looks like the Kananook Yard is completed.
Some of the temporary track has been left in place. Interesting.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP_KFAfVP2U&
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Looks like the Kananook Yard is completed.
Some of the temporary track has been left in place. Interesting.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP_KFAfVP2U&
thekingoffoxes
Stage 1 of the yard is complete. There are plans to add additional roads and a train wash at a later date. This explains the non commissioned track that has been left in place. I would imagine this would be done around the same time as Baxter, as this is where the primary Maintenance Facility for the Frankston line is to be built.

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