Baxter Electrification

 
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
As the line is operated by Automatic & Train Control (ATC), as mentioned by Kitchgp, it all depends on how many signals there are along the line, but assuming one at each station then it is quite easy to schedule trains to follow another.
Opposing moves are a lot more complicated, with the lack of passing facilities.

Neil

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  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Very basic. Essentially just two sections, Frankston - Long Island Junction - Stony Point, with a sort of a loop in the form of the Long Island sidings. No intermediate Automatics.

From VicSig:

https://vicsig.net/infrastructure/projects/sty-signals
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

What about the "convoy" operation at peak time?
route14
Not something that I'm aware of. How does it work?
Fatty


Roughly, on weekdays, some 2-car movements (Down or Up) return as 2 x single-car movements, ie split at either Stony Point or Frankston. The second single-car of a ‘split’ doesn’t depart until after the first arrives at its destination, Stony Point or Frankston (36 mins travel time). (There’s an empty-cars movement in there somewhere.)
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I thought the gap was 20 minutes.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Up
5.31am & 6.18am
11.04am & 11.44am

Down
5.54pm & 6.30pm
  route14 Chief Commissioner

What protocol do they have for approaching a platform with a Sprinter already in it?
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Presumably something similar to the Frankston arrangements. From Wongm’s Rail Gallery:


https://railgallery.wongm.com/stony-point/F138_6120.jpg.html

https://railgallery.wongm.com/stony-point/E113_3125.jpg.html
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Thanks.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Couple of points that haven't been mentioned...

Baxter is ideally placed for a park-and-ride to serve the entire Mornington Peninsular. The freeway runs within 600 metres of the line - allowing easy access from the built up western side of the peninsular to an electrified service. Apart from cars, the freeway provides an ideal spine to entirely rejig the bus network serving Mornington and areas further south and substantially reduce travel times from those areas. That's the existing population that would justify electrification to Baxter.

Population growth on the eastern side of the Mornington Peninsular is limited by planning controls. There is *no* source of any future traffic to justify electrification south of Baxter.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
I entirely agree with Historian's post above, Baxter would be an ideal park and ride location, and further would better serve the Mornington Peninsula. Some express bus services from Baxter to at least Dromana or Rosebud would definitely speed up journeys to major activity centres like Frankston for Mornington Peninsula residents.

Terminating the line at Langwarren would be short sighted, given for the extra small amount of money an extension to Baxter can be achieved and further this may also serve Somerville and Hastings residents who drive to the station or through a connecting bus service.

There is a lack of population growth forecast beyond Somerville and therefore the Stony Point Line should not be electrified beyond Baxter, it would be a waste of money. Some better bus services and more frequent Stony Point line services with the addition of passing loops should achieve better service provision between Baxter and Stony Point for much lower costs.
  Upven Locomotive Driver

Ok I’m going to say it since I am surprised no one has. There is definitely a reason for electrification, maybe not now, but in the future.

Decarbonisation. Controversial in our country as we tend to be two to three decades behind. Additionally it would allow for simplification of rolling stock which is apparently a big thing in Victoria judging by our purchasing habits.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
What about the "convoy" operation at peak time?
Not something that I'm aware of. How does it work?


Roughly, on weekdays, some 2-car movements (Down or Up) return as 2 x single-car movements, ie split at either Stony Point or Frankston. The second single-car of a ‘split’ doesn’t depart until after the first arrives at its destination, Stony Point or Frankston (36 mins travel time). (There’s an empty-cars movement in there somewhere.)
kitchgp
Thanks for the explanation.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Couple of points that haven't been mentioned...

Baxter is ideally placed for a park-and-ride to serve the entire Mornington Peninsular. The freeway runs within 600 metres of the line - allowing easy access from the built up western side of the peninsular to an electrified service. Apart from cars, the freeway provides an ideal spine to entirely rejig the bus network serving Mornington and areas further south and substantially reduce travel times from those areas. That's the existing population that would justify electrification to Baxter.

Population growth on the eastern side of the Mornington Peninsular is limited by planning controls. There is *no* source of any future traffic to justify electrification south of Baxter.
historian
Could not agree more. There is a large swath of land between Baxter and Golf Links Road that would be perfect for a Maintenance Facility & a large park and ride. An upgraded Baxter Station and bus interchange would be key to unlocking the peninsula, it would also be the nail in the coffin for Stony Point.

Something that has never been done well in Victoria is 'Rail Buses', better done in Sydney and more so in Brisbane and Queensland. Buses timed to meet every train, providing direct link from regional centres to the heavy rail network. The drive time from Baxter to Stony Point is 27 minutes compared to 35 on the train. Stopping at all stations to Stony Point, round it up to 35 to take into account boardings at stations. If Baxter has a 20 minute service you could run a rail bus every 40 minutes from first train to last. This provides a better service than can be provided with the current rail infrastructure and does not require the massive investment for a poor catchment area. A Sprinter Rail Car has a capacity of 90 seated passengers, a Bus has a capacity of  50 - 70 passengers. You could run the service for a few hundred thousand a year.

The same principle applies to Mornington all the way to Portsea. Two routes one from Portsea picking up all the peninsula, run time roughly 50 minutes. Second Mount Martha via Mornington, run time 25 minutes. It should not be unusual to see 50 - 100 pax alighting from buses at Baxter to connect to the heavy rail network during the peak times.

Metro is already providing this service for Stony Point, during disruptions Stony Point enjoys a 30 minutes replacement bus frequency.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Couple of points that haven't been mentioned...

Baxter is ideally placed for a park-and-ride to serve the entire Mornington Peninsular.
There is *no* source of any future traffic to justify electrification south of Baxter.
historian
Could not agree more.
There is a large swath of land between Baxter and Golf Links Road that would be perfect for a Maintenance Facility & a large park and ride. An upgraded Baxter Station and bus interchange would be key to unlocking the peninsula, it would also be the nail in the coffin for Stony Point.

Something that has never been done well in Victoria is 'Rail Buses', better done in Sydney and more so in Brisbane and Queensland. Buses timed to meet every train, providing direct link from regional centres to the heavy rail network. The drive time from Baxter to Stony Point is 27 minutes compared to 35 on the train. Stopping at all stations to Stony Point, round it up to 35 to take into account boardings at stations. If Baxter has a 20 minute service you could run a rail bus every 40 minutes from first train to last. This provides a better service than can be provided with the current rail infrastructure and does not require the massive investment for a poor catchment area. A Sprinter Rail Car has a capacity of 90 seated passengers, a Bus has a capacity of  50 - 70 passengers. You could run the service for a few hundred thousand a year.

The same principle applies to Mornington all the way to Portsea. Two routes one from Portsea picking up all the peninsula, run time roughly 50 minutes. Second Mount Martha via Mornington, run time 25 minutes. It should not be unusual to see 50 - 100 pax alighting from buses at Baxter to connect to the heavy rail network during the peak times.

Metro is already providing this service for Stony Point, during disruptions Stony Point enjoys a 30 minutes replacement bus frequency.
"Lockie91"

Agree with your agree @Lockie, but your numbers about the bus are way off.

Replacement bus on Monday UP are 20 bus for the day, instead of the usual 10. 30min early in the day, but after that much the same as the train.
Your 27 min is way off, it's in a car on highway with no stops. Not a bus.

Normal time for the train is 36min Frankston to Stony. 27min Baxter to Stony.
Replace bus is 60min Frankston to Stony, 49min Baxter to Stony.
So bus frequency good, duration crap.

cheers
John
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Do they actually have a publicly available timetable for the replacement buses?  For passengers with accurate travel plans it's absolutely stuffed up with buses replacing trains on BOTH Stony Point and Frankston lines.  30 minute frequency somehow balances out the inconvenience but still too long for a turn-up-and-go basis.  There is no timetable on the PTV website.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Do they actually have a publicly available timetable for the replacement buses?  For passengers with accurate travel plans it's absolutely stuffed up with buses replacing trains on BOTH Stony Point and Frankston lines.  30 minute frequency somehow balances out the inconvenience but still too long for a turn-up-and-go basis.  There is no timetable on the PTV website.
"route14"

Todays TT courtesy PTV Website, is busses.
https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/route/timetable/13/stony-point/

cheers
John
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Couple of points that haven't been mentioned...

Baxter is ideally placed for a park-and-ride to serve the entire Mornington Peninsular.
There is *no* source of any future traffic to justify electrification south of Baxter.
Could not agree more.
There is a large swath of land between Baxter and Golf Links Road that would be perfect for a Maintenance Facility & a large park and ride. An upgraded Baxter Station and bus interchange would be key to unlocking the peninsula, it would also be the nail in the coffin for Stony Point.

Something that has never been done well in Victoria is 'Rail Buses', better done in Sydney and more so in Brisbane and Queensland. Buses timed to meet every train, providing direct link from regional centres to the heavy rail network. The drive time from Baxter to Stony Point is 27 minutes compared to 35 on the train. Stopping at all stations to Stony Point, round it up to 35 to take into account boardings at stations. If Baxter has a 20 minute service you could run a rail bus every 40 minutes from first train to last. This provides a better service than can be provided with the current rail infrastructure and does not require the massive investment for a poor catchment area. A Sprinter Rail Car has a capacity of 90 seated passengers, a Bus has a capacity of  50 - 70 passengers. You could run the service for a few hundred thousand a year.

The same principle applies to Mornington all the way to Portsea. Two routes one from Portsea picking up all the peninsula, run time roughly 50 minutes. Second Mount Martha via Mornington, run time 25 minutes. It should not be unusual to see 50 - 100 pax alighting from buses at Baxter to connect to the heavy rail network during the peak times.

Metro is already providing this service for Stony Point, during disruptions Stony Point enjoys a 30 minutes replacement bus frequency.

Agree with your agree @Lockie, but your numbers about the bus are way off.

Replacement bus on Monday UP are 20 bus for the day, instead of the usual 10. 30min early in the day, but after that much the same as the train.
Your 27 min is way off, it's in a car on highway with no stops. Not a bus.

Normal time for the train is 36min Frankston to Stony. 27min Baxter to Stony.
Replace bus is 60min Frankston to Stony, 49min Baxter to Stony.
So bus frequency good, duration crap.

cheers
John
justarider
Numbers are based off a quick Google Maps search.

Route via major roads, stops at stations only.

Google Maps has the journey time from Stony Point to Baxter at 27 Minutes, this includes a detour into Bittern which added a couple of minutes. From Baxter, the Stony Point line follows Frankston - Flinders Road for most of the route. Add in some traffic, a couple of minutes at stations for boardings and it is easy achievable in under 40 minutes.

PTV has added major padding into the timetable, travel time between Frankston and Leawarra is listed as 30 minutes. This is a 3km journey which can be done in under 10 minutes.

I have just come off a week of replacement busses from Sunbury to Flagstaff, PTV had a bus from Sunbury, Stopping at Diggers Rest then Express to Flagstaff at 60 minutes. It was regularly done in closer to 40, with the biggest hold up being getting out of Flagstaff.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Metro is already providing this service for Stony Point, during disruptions Stony Point enjoys a 30 minutes replacement bus frequency.
Normal time for the train is 36min Frankston to Stony. 27min Baxter to Stony.
Replace bus is 60min Frankston to Stony, 49min Baxter to Stony.
So bus frequency good, duration crap.

cheers
John
justarider
Numbers are based off a quick Google Maps search.
Route via major roads, stops at stations only.
Google Maps has the journey time from Stony Point to Baxter at 27 Minutes, this includes a detour blah blah blah....

PTV has added major padding into the timetable, travel time between Frankston and Leawarra is listed as 30 minutes. This is a 3km journey which can be done in under 10
"Lockie91"
Might I suggest you actually read the TT instead of making Google guesses.
Frankston to Leawarra on the replace bus is SIX minutes. The train is usually TWO, shows the traffic snarl the bus has getting there.
https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/route/timetable/13/stony-point/  (PS set the desired time to tommow morning, no more tonight.)

Lucky you getting express from Diggers. A luxury that Stony will never have. So what relevance is the time comparison ?

cheers
John
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The 6 Jul - 9 Jul PDF (Download Timetables top right) gives bus times.
The 20 Jul - Dec PDF gives train times.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Metro is already providing this service for Stony Point, during disruptions Stony Point enjoys a 30 minutes replacement bus frequency.
Normal time for the train is 36min Frankston to Stony. 27min Baxter to Stony.
Replace bus is 60min Frankston to Stony, 49min Baxter to Stony.
So bus frequency good, duration crap.

cheers
John
Numbers are based off a quick Google Maps search.
Route via major roads, stops at stations only.
Google Maps has the journey time from Stony Point to Baxter at 27 Minutes, this includes a detour blah blah blah....

PTV has added major padding into the timetable, travel time between Frankston and Leawarra is listed as 30 minutes. This is a 3km journey which can be done in under 10
Might I suggest you actually read the TT instead of making Google guesses.
Frankston to Leawarra on the replace bus is SIX minutes. The train is usually TWO, shows the traffic snarl the bus has getting there.
https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/route/timetable/13/stony-point/  (PS set the desired time to tommow morning, no more tonight.)

Lucky you getting express from Diggers. A luxury that Stony will never have. So what relevance is the time comparison ?

cheers
John
justarider
I don't won't too tit for tat but here we are.

If you had read the entirety of the timetable not just the first page you would see that it is six minutes in one direction ONLY.

Frankston 0642
Leawarra 0648
Six minutes indeed.

If we scroll on down,
Leawarra 1831
Frankston 1900
29 minutes

The same is replicated at Stony Point;
Stony Point > Crib Point 2 Minutes
Crib Point > Stony Point 17 Minutes

The relevance of my comparison is not that of the 40 minute travel time, but the padding that is added into replacement bus timetables. Which you can see above.

40 Minutes between Baxter & Stony Point is very much achievable.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Looks like they've listed the departure time of the return service as the arriving time of THIS service.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
..?would see that it is six minutes in one direction ONLY.

If we scroll on down,
Leawarra 1831
Frankston 1900
29 minutes

The same is replicated at Stony Point;

The relevance of my comparison is not that of the 40 minute travel time, but the padding that is added into replacement bus timetables. Which you can see above.

40 Minutes between Baxter & Stony Point is very much achievable.
"Lockie91"
You're right @Lockie, sorry.
Its not padding in the usual sense, just rounded the last arrival to make an even sounding end to end. Why, you're guess as good as..
Probably just ar$e covering.
So the bus, Baxter to Stony is 26min. Same as the train. It comes down to which service Metro want to run in the future, and which the locals wiil accept/demand.

cheers
John
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

..?would see that it is six minutes in one direction ONLY.

If we scroll on down,
Leawarra 1831
Frankston 1900
29 minutes

The same is replicated at Stony Point;

The relevance of my comparison is not that of the 40 minute travel time, but the padding that is added into replacement bus timetables. Which you can see above.

40 Minutes between Baxter & Stony Point is very much achievable.
You're right @Lockie, sorry.
Its not padding in the usual sense, just rounded the last arrival to make an even sounding end to end. Why, you're guess as good as..
Probably just ar$e covering.
So the bus, Baxter to Stony is 26min. Same as the train. It comes down to which service Metro want to run in the future, and which the locals wiil accept/demand.

cheers
John
justarider
The only way to sell it to the locals is that a bus will deliver a far superior service than what they currently have. Even if they had a bus every 40 minutes with a 35/40 minute run time it is still going to be a hard sell. Closing rail lines is a very politically risky move even if you replace it with a gold plated bus service.

The sticker is that the line will still be in service for a long as there is a Long Island Steel Train. So I would expect the locals to demand a rail service, even if it is unless and expensive.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Matthew Guy has yesterday announced he will match the Andrews Government plan to push electrification to Baxter.  This is a me too statement so no real news there.  Pity he did not take it further and complete the job to Stoney Point.
And a line from Dandenong to Frankston, plus quadding Dandenong to Caulfield with Freight taken off of the Frankston line, but one step at a time.
John.Z
How many freight trains use the Franskton line? I am guessing one each way a day, but of course am open to correction.
  Lachlan's Train Channel Station Master

Location: Mildura, Victoria
Matthew Guy has yesterday announced he will match the Andrews Government plan to push electrification to Baxter.  This is a me too statement so no real news there.  Pity he did not take it further and complete the job to Stoney Point.
And a line from Dandenong to Frankston, plus quadding Dandenong to Caulfield with Freight taken off of the Frankston line, but one step at a time.
How many freight trains use the Franskton line? I am guessing one each way a day, but of course am open to correction.
Camster
1 Long Island steel train per day each way afaik

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