Echuca line upgrade

 
  mflucas2 Station Staff

Location: Melbourne
Great to see the Vic Government has committed to upgrading train ordering on the Echuca line upgrade train ordering on the Echuca line!

I wonder if we'll see it rolled out in the rest of Vic - is it going to be a completely different system to the ARTC system in the northeast?

I'm excited about twice daily to Echuca - Echuca kind of feels like a forgotten line!

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I thought there was twice daily services to Echuca already?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
C'mon Bevans, this needs to be locked and re-directed to the RRR forum where there is already a discussion about it
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

C'mon Bevans, this needs to be locked and re-directed to the RRR forum where there is already a discussion about it
BrentonGolding
Nothing stopping Echuca going from 1 return a day to 2 return now.  Simple 0914 Dn Bendigo runs as a DC split Bendigo front half continues to Echuca arrive 1240 form 1320 Up Echuca replaces 1423 Up Epsom attach second set at Bendigo arrive Southern Cross  1633 as now.

What has now been promised after line speed upgrade (how long has that been promised - yet ANOTHER of V/Line's un-delivered long promised "Blue Hills" sagas.) is a third return service which would most likely be 0600 Up ex Echuca forming 0658 Up Epsom attach second set at Bendigo, and the 1753 Dn Bendigo extended through to Echuca.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

C'mon Bevans, this needs to be locked and re-directed to the RRR forum where there is already a discussion about it
BrentonGolding

There's also an existing Echuca line thread:
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11396856-0-asc-s150.htm
Last entry 3 Aug 2019

and Echuca Line Crossing Upgrades:
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11364714-0-asc-s275.htm
Last entry 6 Jul 2020
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Anyone know why they are upgrading the train ordering system instead of installing signals?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Anyone know why they are upgrading the train ordering system instead of installing signals?
railblogger

Much cheaper for in-cab and will apparently come around or under budget. Actual Signals will blow the budget.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Would many new signals be required in the case of metro Bendigo as they already have signals at most areas on the network perhaps with the exception of the western section?
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
I reckon it's almost criminal how the train passengers from Echuca have been treated.

The middle daughter went to Uni in Bendigo around 2008 or 9 ish and there was swag of students from the Echuca area that used to catch the train, which at the time only used to cost a cuppla bucks, bargain for them as well as saving parents or what ever driving. They would say the service was very handy but so slow and they were saying not for much longer though, their going to speed the train up soon, after some upgrades..Rolling Eyes

Here we are 10 - 12 years later and still waiting.... think even the crickets have long since died of old age....

BigShunter.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
With more trains splitting at Bendigo to serve Echuca (presuming that 6 car Vlocities will not run all the way to Echuca) will the laughable situation in Bendigo which sees passengers booted off the train while they attach or detach units finally be abolished as it has been at Ballarat?

I fail to see the logic that allows passengers to remain on board at Ballarat, yet sees them kicked off at Bendigo for the exact same procedure.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

What a Nanny State.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I see it as more a typical failure of bureaucratic systems.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Aren't they the same?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

On a more positive note, at least regional rail in Victoria finally got a large injection of cash for upgrades. The fact the Echuca line will receive 3 times more services and additional stations once it's complete sounds like a step in the right direction.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Anyone know why they are upgrading the train ordering system instead of installing signals?

Much cheaper for in-cab and will apparently come around or under budget. Actual Signals will blow the budget.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Just to elaborate on this, they're not changing the safe working system on the line so there's no need for a change in signalling, all that is happening is that the train order (no idea where train ordering came from) will shift from being hand written on paper forms to an electronic train order received via the ice radio.

I wonder if we'll see it rolled out in the rest of Vic - is it going to be a completely different system to the ARTC system in the northeast?
mflucas2
If the electronic train orders are successful on the Echuca line I believe it will be rolled across the rest of the existing train order territory's in Vic. The North East line is CTC which is a different safe working system to train orders.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Does the radio have recording?  I'm not doubting drivers' ability of comprehension, but with orders given completely in the form of voice communication, something could go wrong.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Does the radio have recording?  I'm not doubting drivers' ability of comprehension, but with orders given completely in the form of voice communication, something could go wrong.
route14
The system is said to be that used in Regional NSW. For once Victoria is NOT re-inventing the wheel as we so often do to justify the empire building .

The existing manual train orders take 5 minutes to recite/repeat back which delays trains, and it is said that there is some industrial thing that only ten train orders can be issued per train controller per shift.

Potentially the electronic system can be applied to all other Victorian lines where train orders apply . Lines like Seymour - Shepparton would be a huge benefit, whereas Traralgon - Sale - Bairnsdale and Wendouree - Ararat work fine on good old Staff & Ticket.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Does the ICE radio only convey voice commtunication or does it actually display the ticket?
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The existing manual train orders take 5 minutes to recite/repeat back which delays trains, and it is said that there is some industrial thing that only ten train orders can be issued per train controller per shift.  
Kuldalai
There's something wrong if its taking 5 minutes to verify a train order, its a pretty quick process once you have the train order in your hand which in most places for V/Line is issued to the signaler or station staff and is handed to the driver to verify. There will be potential benefits where there is tight scheduling for UP and DOWN trains over a section but to be honest I'd be surprised if there were any timetable alterations. Never heard of the 10 TO order limit per TC shift.

Does the radio have recording?  
Route14
Yes. All critical comms (and most others) are recorded. The verification process is meant to eliminate errors and any potential misunderstandings.  

Does the ICE radio only convey voice commtunication or does it actually display the ticket?
Route14
There is currently an 'authorities' section in the ice radio that appears to be able to display text. I say appears to be able to display text as its not something that we currently use but I assume is what the electronic train orders will use otherwise it will require a software update.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Thanks.  I think it will do the job with the existing frequency.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Are all RFR lines CTC?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Are all RFR lines CTC?
NSWGR8022
No.  TPWS (Train Protection & Working System).
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Does the ICE radio only convey voice commtunication or does it actually display the ticket?
route14

The communication between the driver and Centrol is FAR more complicated than you believe it to be.

The driver after contacting Centrol for the right to proceed has to advise the train number and actually spell out the words so there is NO miscommunication whatsoever.

EG: Echuca is spelled out as E C H U C A to bendigo is spelt as B E N D I G O assuming that's where the driver is proceeding to.

There are other details that are conveyed between the driver and Centrol, however it's been a few years since I was in a cab and the memory is becoming foggy.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Are all RFR lines CTC?
No.  TPWS (Train Protection & Working System).
Carnot

I thought TPWS was Train Protection Warning System.

Because, should the driver proceed through a warning signal, normally yellow above a certain speed, the train will 'trip' just like a spark does over the warning device. The in-cab warning will beep loudly and the train will come come to a halt and the driver has to wait until the beeping has stopped, reset (unsure what) and proceed.

I believe Centrol is supposed to be advised if the TPWS has been activated.

Mike.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

They don't use the radio way of spelling, Echo, Charlie, Hotel...?

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