Black Lives Matter Protests

 
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Shane P, we're talking about two different things. Women entering the workforce is a whole different ballgame to women staying in the workforce. Since the archaic misogynistic law that determined that women had to quit once they were married was repealed, it is only natural that more women then stayed in the workforce, isn't it?

Your claim that "The need for 2 salaries is a result of more having two salaries driving up the cost of housing and the desire to have a higher standard of living" or in other words keeping up with the Jones's, is a classic case of putting the cart before the horse. You seem to be implying that if only women were barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen like they were in the 50's, we wouldn't be in the current housing affordability mess.
Drop the "Shane P", its "Shane" or "RTT...".  

You know why, we don't need to go down this path again, I'll escalate it to moderators if you continue.
RTT_Rules
Well, you do what you think you need to do. In the meantime I'll try again.

Shane, we're talking about two different things...etc.

Your turn.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
we're talking about two different things. Women entering the workforce is a whole different ballgame to women staying in the workforce. Since the archaic misogynistic law that determined that women had to quit once they were married was repealed, it is only natural that more women then stayed in the workforce, isn't it?

Your claim that "The need for 2 salaries is a result of more having two salaries driving up the cost of housing and the desire to have a higher standard of living" or in other words keeping up with the Jones's, is a classic case of putting the cart before the horse. You seem to be implying that if only women were barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen like they were in the 50's, we wouldn't be in the current housing affordability mess.


Shane, we're talking about two different things...etc.

Your turn.
DirtyBallast
My mum and many other women I know worked through the 60's and 70's without issue, that law as I'm lead to believe only applied to some roles in some industries and even when it was removed there wasn't a big step change in females in employment, but continued the gradual increase over time. My wife used to work with the female mining manager that had to have the Qld law changed so she could run a mine and that wasn't even as early as the 70's. The Collins Class Sub's enabled females to join the submarine fleet and that was the 90's.

If I recall correctly, today females make up >50% of the workforce and their full time percentage is rising, where as males is slightly falling.

Increasing a house holds income will obviously lead to an increase in standard of living including choice of location and type of housing. Do this for an entire community and land prices will rise reducing disposal income as more is committed to housing costs. Other factors also come into play, such as increasing taxation as the welfare bill has doubled as % of GDP since 1980 as does immigration and other factors.

Anyway, rather than you asking me or others or challenging us on our comments. Why don't you tell us how to solve the issues with the native population as with all the comments by Don, myself and others, I haven't seen you put your 2.2c on the table yet?

Back to you!
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Anyway, rather than you asking me or others or challenging us on our comments. Why don't you tell us how to solve the issues with the native population as with all the comments by Don, myself and others, I haven't seen you put your 2.2c on the table yet?

Back to you!
RTT_Rules
As in, how do we solve the problem of 10yo indigenous boys being incarcerated etc?

You already know the answer to that!
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
How is your community solving the problem of 10 year old boys committing crimes?  
And the answer is not more money.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
How is your community solving the problem of 10 year old boys committing crimes?  
And the answer is not more money.
Donald
How is your community getting away with white 10 year olds NOT being incarcerated for the same crimes as indigenous boys who are?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Is there any evidence that 10 year old white kids AREN'T locked up at the same rates that black kids are when they've committed the same offences? I know that they're 17 times more likely to be incarcerated - but then that's relative to the crimes that they are caught for. What are we supposed to do, not lock them up exactly because they're Aboriginal? You then run the risk of not protecting the community - don't you?

Last month when four indigenous kids died in Townsville in a stolen car at least one of them was already on bail for another offence. If that kid had still be in custody then they might still be alive now. Or should they always be bailed in the interests of social justice?
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
DB,
The percentage of the population that is incarcerated has more to say about the community than the legal system.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
DB,
The percentage of the population that is incarcerated has more to say about the community than the legal system.
Donald
Spot on. Poverty and disadvantage (literacy, access to education and jobs) is a more significant predictor of whether you'll end up in jail or not than race - it's unfortunate that Aboriginal people are more likely to be economically disadvantaged than other groups and therefore end up in jail.

Sometimes both kids and adults need to locked up because they're a danger to the community and to themselves and the only way to stop that potential harm is to incarcerate them. Sad but true.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I'll give you an example where throwing money at something doesn't improve the outcome: Aboriginal school attendance.

One of the things that occurred with the last "Closing the Gap" program started in 2008 was a program to pay parents in order to make sure their kids got to school on time (travel allowance) and also another program to give those same kids three meals a day at a cost of $2. But instead of school attendance getting better as a result of these programs it actually got worse - according to a follow-up "Closing the Gap" report from 2017 those programs had failed miserably with a third of Aboriginal kids missing from NT schools on any one day and more than half of indigenous kids nationally missing more than ten percent of school classes.

So what does Morrison do but announce yet another "Closing the Gap" lot of funding to throw even more money at trying to improve a situation when doing exactly that twelve years ago was a failure. What are we supposed to do as a society to make sure those kids go to school and have a shot at being literate and numerate when throwing more money at the problem hasn't worked?
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Sadly there are people of aboriginal descent who see anything of the "white man's world" (school, laws, whatever suits their individual agenda) as irrelevant in "their country". I know this because they have told me so personally.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Selective rejection.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Selective rejection.
"Donald"
Sure. How much aboriginal language, customs, history, beliefs and lifestyle do you know, white man?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Selective rejection.
Sure. How much aboriginal language, customs, history, beliefs and lifestyle do you know, white man?
Valvegear
Yeah because my knowledge of Pitjanjara was really important the last time I went for that job interview but they didn't care if I was numerate or could read instructions in English.

I've met plenty of white people who are completely illiterate or innumerate and/or never went to school (it still goes on rather a lot in our community) and its a really significant disadvantage in trying to do pretty much anything in modern society. Not having a basic education is probably fine if you only want to hang out in your traditional tribal area for the rest of your life but dealing with anything to do with money/government or leaving the community to try and live in broader society is going to expose you to all sorts of situations that you simply can't deal with.

It should be no surprise that there's a very strong link between illiteracy and criminality and this is a phenomenon that can be observed across cultures and internationally. Generally speaking seventy-five percent of all people in jail do not read or write well or at all. So if we're going to reduce the number of Aboriginal people in prison - which is extremely high - then surely making sure that they have basic literacy and numeracy is a good start?
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
if we're going to reduce the number of Aboriginal people in prison - which is extremely high - then surely making sure that they have basic literacy and numeracy is a good start?
don_dunstan
Sounds great eh? But how do you propose to help the kids whose parents refuse to send them to school to be taught "white fella rubbish"?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Sadly there are people of aboriginal descent who see anything of the "white man's world" (school, laws, whatever suits their individual agenda) as irrelevant in "their country". I know this because they have told me so personally.
Graham4405
Unfortunately this is very much true. In most cases I suspect the rejection is not cultural, its just like non-native kids and adults who don't want to conform to "the system". For the native population, the current approach for this is let them live in their community, we will pay them welfare because thats what people expect, but we all know many of these communities are on par with lowly ranked 3rd world counties, houses built are destroyed, school is something "white people do" but thats ok, they can live traditionally and out of sight out of mind. Hell Alice Springs walled off part of their aboriginal community so not to scare the tourists.

As for Dirty Ballast's comment on locking up 10 year olds. Personally I agree, who wants to lock up an10 yr old, I have a 10yr old and I could not imagine him in jail. So I spent last night doing some reading on this, surprise. Most f these kids have been abused physically and sexually by their family, Parents often absent (I say this in Port Steward). However its easy to waffle off "don't lock up 10 year olds", but what do you do with kids who don't want to play by the rules? I don't have an answer, Dirty Ballast certainly doesn't as he would have stated it.  In the old days they had a solution now considered unacceptable and we have apologized for it, ie stolen generations! In the rest of the country its called foster care!  

At some point the kids crimes are such that they need to be removed from society, case in point the murderers of James Bulger were both aged 10 also not black. So until we have another answer, these kids, black, white, yellow, red etc who have been failed by their own families and people will continue to end up in jail.

For me, if I thought people were genuine and wanted to live a traditional way of live, I say go for it. We shouldn't be forcing them to live 21st century, hell many no natives don't want to live in the 21st century. But traditional does not involve alcohol, drugs, sex abuse, domestic violence, rape, incest, hunting dugon's with speed boats. Provide basics, such as medical, education clean water and food for those who want it, but no money!

In short, the politicians will again come up with fancy slogans, but nothing will work. It doesn't off-shore, why here apart from forcing people to stand up for themselves and go to work.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Selective rejection.
Sure. How much aboriginal language, customs, history, beliefs and lifestyle do you know, white man?
Yeah because my knowledge of Pitjanjara was really important the last time I went for that job interview but they didn't care if I was numerate or could read instructions in English.
don_dunstan
I could say the same about what I learnt at school about English history, French, astronomy, German, early European explorers in Australia, car maintenance, etc etc.

Overall its called broad education, its something western countries are generally good at, but countries like India are hopeless. Unless its on topic they are not interested. Result in the work place and in community at large, they are narrow focused and narrow minded and lack lateral thinking. I spend alot of time with business owners in India worth millions (mostly inherited dad's business and in many cases developed it further), but they don't know much about the world around them.

While the three R's are the cornerstone of our education, there is more to life than the three R's.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Sounds great eh? But how do you propose to help the kids whose parents refuse to send them to school to be taught "white fella rubbish"?
Graham4405
Its a complete cope out! "I've achieved nothing, so you will achieve nothing"
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
DB,
The percentage of the population that is incarcerated has more to say about the community than the legal system.
Spot on. Poverty and disadvantage (literacy, access to education and jobs) is a more significant predictor of whether you'll end up in jail or not than race - it's unfortunate that Aboriginal people are more likely to be economically disadvantaged than other groups and therefore end up in jail.

Sometimes both kids and adults need to locked up because they're a danger to the community and to themselves and the only way to stop that potential harm is to incarcerate them. Sad but true.
don_dunstan
Sounds like you're trying to justify the Stolen Generation.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Meanwhile, in Chicago:


Elon won't be happy. But these criminals won't get far since each vehicle is loaded with cameras recording video inside and out, and trackable.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Sadly there are people of aboriginal descent who see anything of the "white man's world" (school, laws, whatever suits their individual agenda) as irrelevant in "their country". I know this because they have told me so personally.
Unfortunately this is very much true. In most cases I suspect the rejection is not cultural, its just like non-native kids and adults who don't want to conform to "the system". For the native population, the current approach for this is let them live in their community, we will pay them welfare because thats what people expect, but we all know many of these communities are on par with lowly ranked 3rd world counties, houses built are destroyed, school is something "white people do" but thats ok, they can live traditionally and out of sight out of mind. Hell Alice Springs walled off part of their aboriginal community so not to scare the tourists.

As for Dirty Ballast's comment on locking up 10 year olds. Personally I agree, who wants to lock up an10 yr old, I have a 10yr old and I could not imagine him in jail. So I spent last night doing some reading on this, surprise. Most f these kids have been abused physically and sexually by their family, Parents often absent (I say this in Port Steward). However its easy to waffle off "don't lock up 10 year olds", but what do you do with kids who don't want to play by the rules? I don't have an answer, Dirty Ballast certainly doesn't as he would have stated it.  In the old days they had a solution now considered unacceptable and we have apologized for it, ie stolen generations! In the rest of the country its called foster care!  

At some point the kids crimes are such that they need to be removed from society, case in point the murderers of James Bulger were both aged 10 also not black. So until we have another answer, these kids, black, white, yellow, red etc who have been failed by their own families and people will continue to end up in jail.

For me, if I thought people were genuine and wanted to live a traditional way of live, I say go for it. We shouldn't be forcing them to live 21st century, hell many no natives don't want to live in the 21st century. But traditional does not involve alcohol, drugs, sex abuse, domestic violence, rape, incest, hunting dugon's with speed boats. Provide basics, such as medical, education clean water and food for those who want it, but no money!

In short, the politicians will again come up with fancy slogans, but nothing will work. It doesn't off-shore, why here apart from forcing people to stand up for themselves and go to work.
RTT_Rules
Firstly, I've never ever advocated that money is the answer, I'm not saying that you suggested that I did but I just wanted to make that clear.

Answers. Do I have them? Do you have the answers to UAE's appalling human rights issues, whether it be its treatment of migrant workers or its demeaning treatment of women? What are you going to do about it? I seem to recall that Don has mentioned previously that he has had experience working with troubled youth - does he have the answers to fix those issues once and for all? Why is that situation worse than ever?

All I want to see is people being treated equally. Scenario: You are an employer looking to recruit someone for a critical role. Only two applicants make the final shortlist, both equally qualified and experienced. It is impossible to pick one over the other based solely on merit. I put it to you that 99% of employers will still pick the white fella over the blakfella. And so the disadvantage, and inequality, continues. You hear later that 95% of white fellas are employed but only 70% of blakfellas. You could have done something to reduce inequality in society as a whole, enriching us all, but couldn't bring yourself to buck the trend.

My philosophy is that we are all passengers on the same ship. That could be planet Earth in a global sense, but for the purpose of this discussion let's assume breaking it down to just Australia. Taken literally, a cruise ship called Australia. Every passenger on that ship is entitled to dine in the restaurants or pig out from the bain-maries, it's their choice on the day. They can go to the same shows, swim in the same pools, go to the same bars, go on the same shore based excursions, etc. etc. Everyone has equal opportunity. Now imagine if one cohort of passengers are told by the 'captain' (people in power) that they are only entitled to inside cabins instead of balcony rooms or suites, and that they should be thankful for that. Imagine if they were barred entry to the restaurants because 'others' felt uncomfortable, when in fact, the white fellas already seated in the restaurant are the 'others.'

Why does it have to be that way?

We are all passengers on the same ship!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
DB,
The percentage of the population that is incarcerated has more to say about the community than the legal system.
Spot on. Poverty and disadvantage (literacy, access to education and jobs) is a more significant predictor of whether you'll end up in jail or not than race - it's unfortunate that Aboriginal people are more likely to be economically disadvantaged than other groups and therefore end up in jail.

Sometimes both kids and adults need to locked up because they're a danger to the community and to themselves and the only way to stop that potential harm is to incarcerate them. Sad but true.
Sounds like you're trying to justify the Stolen Generation.
DirtyBallast
Focusing on today, if I don't look after my kids according community standards / expectations they can be taken off me and placed into temporary or permanent foster care.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
DB,
The percentage of the population that is incarcerated has more to say about the community than the legal system.
Spot on. Poverty and disadvantage (literacy, access to education and jobs) is a more significant predictor of whether you'll end up in jail or not than race - it's unfortunate that Aboriginal people are more likely to be economically disadvantaged than other groups and therefore end up in jail.

Sometimes both kids and adults need to locked up because they're a danger to the community and to themselves and the only way to stop that potential harm is to incarcerate them. Sad but true.
Sounds like you're trying to justify the Stolen Generation.
DirtyBallast
That's the most ridiculous dribble that you've ever spewed... and that's really saying something.

Any child - black or white - who presents a clear danger to the community because they habitually steal cars etc- should be incarcerated for the protection of the community. Unless you think that they should kill someone first?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
All I want to see is people being treated equally. Scenario: You are an employer looking to recruit someone for a critical role. Only two applicants make the final shortlist, both equally qualified and experienced. It is impossible to pick one over the other based solely on merit. I put it to you that 99% of employers will still pick the white fella over the blakfella. And so the disadvantage, and inequality, continues. You hear later that 95% of white fellas are employed but only 70% of blakfellas. You could have done something to reduce inequality in society as a whole, enriching us all, but couldn't bring yourself to buck the trend
DirtyBallast
You don't have a shred of evidence for what you just said being a valid scenario in Australia in the 21st century. None.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Aboriginal Australia has to take responsibility for themselves at some point - white people can't be to blame for every single thing that's wrong. Yet there's still Aboriginal people who do exactly that - ABC;

Jack Beetson, the founder of the Literacy for Life Foundation, an Aboriginal-led charity tackling low adult literacy rates, said Indigenous literacy was a problem nationwide.

"We know that at least 40 per cent, and up to 85 per cent, of Indigenous people aged 15 have low literacy," Mr Beetson said.

"Wherever you go across Australia, there's a minimum of 40 per cent [with low literacy]."

Mr Beetson said Indigenous literacy levels were a national disgrace and that the shame belonged to those who were literate, not those with low literacy.

"Here we are, living in a first world country, with third world statistics for Indigenous Australians."

The problem is because Aboriginal parents don't send their kids to school - as I cited earlier on any given day in the Northern Territory (for example), a third of Aboriginal kids are missing from class. That's despite the fact that Aboriginal parents get paid if they send their kids to school and the children get heavily subsidized food if they turn up.

What else are we supposed to do as a society to try and educate these kids and subsequently keep them out of prison?

From the same ABC article, a comment from an Aboriginal elder ("Aunty Val") who seems to understand the crux of the problem:

While Aunty Val is advocating for more support for Indigenous children, she believes that self-determination is key.

"You've got to go to school and get an education. They can't get a job if they can't read and write and that's what we are finding here, and every area is the same," she said.

"Aboriginal people have got to front up … be responsible for ourselves, and better our lives too, and say to the kids, 'You've got to go to school'."
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Literacy skills (and numeracy skills even moreso) are very important to me - I simply wouldn’t be where I am without them.

To that end, I used to tutor in maths and the ‘hard sciences’. My aboriginal friend I mentioned here or in some other thread (who who as it turns out made it to Britain without a health check because Britain says that Australia is a ‘clean’ country when it comes to Covid) got me some government funding ($500-700 I don’t remember how much) to tutor a young indigenous lad with his school level maths.

It was a ten week term, for an hour a week in the school, after school. Half of the weeks I would attend to met by the teacher who told me he had not attended at all that day, two of the weeks he attended school but left without coming to the tutorial, each time he was absent I would hang around for a half an hour talking to the teachers and staff on the off chance he showed. Only three of the tutorials were actually attended, and I was actually able to assist.

After the ten weeks over the school holidays I had to report on progress to the funding body. They actually asked me to return 70% of the funding for the missed tutoring, despite the fact I had to get to the school and wait around for a no show.

I questioned them on this, I acted in good faith, showed up every time, I am not a magician, I cannot make him show up to school, and even while at school the school cannot detain him to attend tutoring after school. ‘money is tight’ was effectively the response, so I returned 100% of the funding and told them and my friend to not consider me for such a program again.

I went to only tutoring those that directly came to me, if they’re not motivated enough to seek help themselves then they’re probably not motivated enough to be helped.

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