Melbourne Metro tunnel 2

 
  John E Locomotive Fireman

If Suburban Rail Loop ever gets up between the Hurstbridge and Mernda lines, this would reduce the need for an Interchange at Clifton Hill. SRL would meet the needs of most users interchanging between these 2 lines except people going to and from the MCG from the Mernda line.

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I always thought the idea was to start the tunnel portal at Northcote station and remove the bends. As a bonus, you remove a level crossing at the same time. Then it has underground stations and would connect with Clifton Hill, then runs under Alexander Parade.

If it runs under the Alexander parade, you would have plenty of room to construct a station box at Fitzroy in the median. Would be less disruptive than doing it along the more narrower Johnston street where the buses run along.  

Although along Johnston would be closer to the commercial district and businesses along that route.

Honestly, it needs further planning to figure out the exact route it should take.

Anyways was it the Doncaster rail study that started the Metro 2 concept, or was there previous concepts before that?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-rexASpUqM&t=95
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
It has been speculated by quite a few people that one of the aims of the tunnelling would be to remove that curve. That of course leaves the question of what happens to Rushall station itself, as one would imagine that like South Yarra, the limiting factors would become the descent into the portals before they could be levelled out for a station.

I have wondered this myself. I would imagine they would want to get rid of the kink, but on the other hand an interchange at Clifton Hill seems essential to making the tunnel more accessible to more people. Rail Futures in their unofficial proposal goes even further North, starting the tunnel at Croxton.

I've also wondered about the placement of the stations between Clifton Hill and Parkville. Usually on unofficial maps this is just shown as one station, "Fitzroy" around the site of the Gasworks redevelopment on Alexandra Parade (Really in Fitzroy North).

I found it really interesting that on the leaked (then-)TfV network development plan they had two stations: Fitzroy and Carlton. If you pair that with this image from the Suburban Rail Loop document:  This map seems to me to be showing the tunnel running under Johnston St, rather than Alexandra. This maintains the kink and could even start the tunnel entrance lower (maybe just after Clifton Hill or around Victoria Park).

Now, this is just pure speculation based on little published evidence, but taken together it could mean they're considering an alignment beneath Johnston St with stations in Fitzroy (possibly around Smith St?) and Carlton (Somewhere between Brunswick St and Lygon?). This would make a lot of sense to me: Collingwood and Fiztroy are densifying really quickly, and there's lots more development in the pipeline. One of the reasons for the alignment further North was to capitalise on the gasworks redevelopment by providing it with a station, but the current proposals show a development with mostly 5-8 stories, which might not justify a metro station.

Of course, a tunnel entry further south would do nothing to get rid of the Rushall kink.

Regardless, I hope they do go for two stations in the Northern leg of MM2, the inner north is becoming quite dense and new stations would cater to this, and help make it more of an extension of the city.
WarburtonStation
From what I've read and looked at, the geography around Merri Creek basically leaves with you 3 options:

1. Tunnel portal South of Clifton Hill
Allows direct interchange from MM2 to the Hurstbridge line, keeps a good service for Rushall and Merri but leaves you with the Rushall curve still. Shortest tunnelling option and so likely the cheapest.

2. Tunnel portal West of Rushall:
Alignment joins the existing track just South of the bridge over Merri Creek, near Park Street. You get rid of the Rushall curve but houses, parks and roads are demolished to build the tunnel portal and a real mess is made of an inner city community. Cue outrage (I honestly don't think this will happen).

3. Tunnel portal at/North of Northcote:
Northcote station is at 50m elevation, Merri Creek is at 32m (from the best I can tell via topographic maps). It's just over 1km from Northcote to Merri Pde, so with a tunnel at a 2% gradient starting at Northcote, you'd basically end up going right through the creek bed. In order to go under Merri Creek, you'd need to either start tunnelling closer to Croxton, or drop Northcote station into a trench underneath Arthurton Rd and tunnel from the lower starting point (hey, an LX removal at the same time, win!).
In order to maintain system connectivity, you could run Mernda trains via MM2 and Wollert trains via the old alignment (Merri-Rushall-Clifton Hill and on to Flinders St) by branching at the new Northcote station. Everybody wins, but I'm betting it costs a stack more money that option 1.


Options 2 and 3 allow you to build possibly 3 stations: Fitzroy North (St Georges Rd/Pigdon St area), Fitzroy and Carlton.
Option 1 probably just gets you Fitzroy and Carlton.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
If Suburban Rail Loop ever gets up between the Hurstbridge and Mernda lines, this would reduce the need for an Interchange at Clifton Hill. SRL would meet the needs of most users interchanging between these 2 lines except people going to and from the MCG from the Mernda line.
John E
Clifton Hill station is heritage listed.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
If Suburban Rail Loop ever gets up between the Hurstbridge and Mernda lines, this would reduce the need for an Interchange at Clifton Hill. SRL would meet the needs of most users interchanging between these 2 lines except people going to and from the MCG from the Mernda line.
Clifton Hill station is heritage listed.
Dangersdan707
And? John is talking about not needing to transfer there, not removing the station altogether.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

There would have to be four platforms at Clifton Hill. The Mernda and Hurstbridge lines would need to be completely separated under Metro 2.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

There would have to be four platforms at Clifton Hill. The Mernda and Hurstbridge lines would need to be completely separated under Metro 2.
reubstar6

Only the current 2 would be above ground though, the Mernda line platforms would be underground, possibly directly under Hoddle St.

Reading Leroy's post above, his option 3 is what I remember the Rail Futures were suggesting.  And thinking further it makes the most sense - start digging south of Croxton, then Northcote and Merri are either tunnel stations or in trenches, tunnel goes under the creek and underground interchange to Clifton Hill.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I wonder with some fancy signalling would it be possible to have the Mernda and Hurstbridge lines have a bottle neck at Clifton Hill before one of them just south of the station goes into a tunnel.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

I wonder with some fancy signalling would it be possible to have the Mernda and Hurstbridge lines have a bottle neck at Clifton Hill before one of them just south of the station goes into a tunnel.
Dangersdan707

It might be possible, but I doubt it'd be a good idea.  For the sake of future-proofing, they need to separate all the lines as much as possible.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I wonder with some fancy signalling would it be possible to have the Mernda and Hurstbridge lines have a bottle neck at Clifton Hill before one of them just south of the station goes into a tunnel.
Dangersdan707
Probably not with it becoming a useful interchange in both directions: the dwell time at platforms is going to increase.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

That’d completely defeat the purpose of the tunnel. The two lines would still be constrained by each other.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I was once really looking forward to this project going forward as a solution, but as time passes it seems harder to justify this tunnel.

1) Fisherman's Bend development has slowed down, due to changing the plans between the governments.
2) Under the current government, Doncaster rail is an abandoned project
3) COVID-19 would mean public transport would take a hit, and taking a few years to recover
4) The Wollert line and the extension of the Werribee line are not gonna start happening very soon
5) Also travel patterns will change towards a more radial pattern post covid, where people would work closer to the suburbs and not rely heading in and out the CBD (Projects such as the North east link (opens in 2027) and Suburban rail loop (opens in 2030) should help with this change)

If you ever wanted this corridor built, I think the only options is converting the Werribee and Mernda lines to a metro standard of operation, and use smaller tunnels and stations to bring down the overall cost. So you could go with more trains, but each train has less capacity.

This is the Sydney metro approach and probably would work better on those corridors since are mostly separated from V/line and other services, you could divert the BG freight from the Werribee line via RRL in the future perhaps.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
I was once really looking forward to this project going forward as a solution, but as time passes it seems harder to justify this tunnel.

1) Fisherman's Bend development has slowed down, due to changing the plans between the governments.
2) Under the current government, Doncaster rail is an abandoned project
3) COVID-19 would mean public transport would take a hit, and taking a few years to recover
4) The Wollert line and the extension of the Werribee line are not gonna start happening very soon
5) Also travel patterns will change towards a more radial pattern post covid, where people would work closer to the suburbs and not rely heading in and out the CBD (Projects such as the North east link (opens in 2027) and Suburban rail loop (opens in 2030) should help with this change)

If you ever wanted this corridor built, I think the only options is converting the Werribee and Mernda lines to a metro standard of operation, and use smaller tunnels and stations to bring down the overall cost. So you could go with more trains, but each train has less capacity.

This is the Sydney metro approach and probably would work better on those corridors since are mostly separated from V/line and other services, you could divert the BG freight from the Werribee line via RRL in the future perhaps.
True Believers
You may be right, from an urban planning perspective the over reliance of the CBD for jobs and the congestion and overcrowded public transport every peak hour period to cater for the masses of CBD workers plus gridlocked traffic (this being before Covid 19) is not sustainable. I think decentralisation and more suburban jobs in activity centres and National Employment Industrial Clusters and less jobs in the CBD is wonderful to reduce congestion and promote environmental benefits, by reduced travel time and traffic (people would work closer to where they live). This is government policy in Plan Melbourne anyway. This would likely promote Suburban Rail Loop as you say, which I think  is a worthwhile project. And makes a good case for improved cross suburban bus services.

I could see the 'eastern half' of Metro 2 being constructed first (and may be the only part ever built), that is from Southern Cross to Mernda or possibly Woolert too via Flagstaff, Carlton and Fitzroy, to ease pressure off the Hurstbridge Line and to cater for the massive growth in the Whittlesea area. The Newport lines between Newport and Flinders Street could have more capacity for additional Werribee services with the installation of high capacity signalling, plus likely removal of level crossings between Newport and Footscray, which would be significantly cheaper than Metro 2 'western end' from Newport to Southern Cross. This would really boost Werribee line services with increased growth in the future and may render the 'western end' of Metro 2 redundant. Of course things may change in the future post Covid 19 and development at Fishermens Bend.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
I was once really looking forward to this project going forward as a solution, but as time passes it seems harder to justify this tunnel.

5) Also travel patterns will change towards a more radial pattern post covid, where people would work closer to the suburbs and not rely heading in and out the CBD (Projects such as the North east link (opens in 2027) and Suburban rail loop (opens in 2030) should help with this change)
True Believers

Is this an argument for the Suburban Rail Loop?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
i think the best thing to do is to decentralise urban planning to reduce the amount of people travelling into the city and to increase the counter-peak patronage as well.

In terms of capacity, using smaller trains is not the way to go - even if you run them more frequently you are still going to need a train that is at least of our current size to deal with demand.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I think demand for it has probably gone backwards from within 10-15 years to 15-20 maybe.

Our trains are already basically the size of the Metro trains used in Sydney. They're not going to decrease sizes of trains to deep surface tube line size trains. The tunnels will have to be a certain size anyway as modern safety standards means there needs to be more space around trains for services. Once you buy a tbm and put it in the ground the costs aren't really all that different, and Metro Tunnel have their own concrete facility to make the rings.

I think the short term success of the Arden precinct could be used as an example of what to do at Fishermen's Bend to make it successful.

I'm not sure that the Eastern end would be built without the Western end though. There are cheaper projects that could increase the Clifton Hill lines capacity in short term, such as rebuilding Clifton Hill to have a conflict free junction.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

In the short term, they could introduce high capacity signalling to reduce the bottlenecks at Newport and Clifton hill, when they do hit the max 24tph capacity. But in the meantime there isn't really a justification to push to build Melbourne Metro 2. There are some green and PT groups are still pushing ahead with, despite that things naturally change with the times.

It is not the right project to go ahead with at this current moment. Will there be a need for the project into the future, maybe?

I was a real advocate for this project but it seems like my views change when things change.

In the meantime I would advocate the superior alternative, pushing for the city-loop configuration project instead to be the next logical step for inner city capacity relief. While also building on the radial project initiatives to provide alternatives to city-travel.

^-^ Does anyone agree with me?
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
TB: thanks for summarising a bunch of SSC posts from the other day. Rolling Eyes

re: Fishermans Bend - the structure planning for the entire precinct has been anything but laggard, there are quite a few people in the VPS working on it and I expect we'll hear more about this once COVID stops sucking up all the media oxygen.  Ditto for the business cases/reference designs for MARL and SRL.

Don't forget the state government made the choice to go with their own project (SRL) over MM2 and we now know SRL is going to look very different to the existing network.  

The SRL strategic assessment shows preliminary modeled traffic to be quite big in the north-east section of the line (Phases 1 and 2) and I'd be interested to see modeling that shows how the arterial (existing) rail lines are impacted by this.  I suspect there's going to be forecast increased city-bound demand from the outer-suburbs still, but not all of it will be bound for the inner-city but the respective intersecting SRL station.  Ditto for outbound services from the inner-city to the intersecting SRL station on each artery.

So then the question here is: does there need to be "extra" services running from middle suburban stations outwards, rather than from the inner-city where the most expensive track amplification works would need to be carried out?

I still think it's too early to say definitively covid's going to change the BAU all that much, but I do think we're at the stage where you cannot assume whatever has been planned for in the past will go ahead under the same parameters we were all familiar with: you have to expect that changes will be made/assumptions will be revisited.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

TB: thanks for summarising a bunch of SSC posts from the other day. Rolling Eyes
tayser
You're welcome! Happy to contribute in discussions on both forums. ^-^
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

The project has never been endorsed by the Labor Party. This was purely for making developers of fishermen's bend more money when Matthew Guy rezoned the land over night. This was again evident during the election campaign when Metro suddenly ran via Southern Cross and Fishermans bend. A poor Liberal party attempt at two birds one stone.

5) Also travel patterns will change towards a more radial pattern post covid, where people would work closer to the suburbs and not rely heading in and out the CBD (Projects such as the North east link (opens in 2027) and Suburban rail loop (opens in 2030) should help with this change)
True Belivers
Data from NZ, Sydney and London have shown patronage numbers have pretty much gone back to normal once restrictions are lifted. So maybe some short term effects once restrictions start getting lifted, but I would imagine 12 months after things will be back to normal. Even if we are all still wearing masks.

I could see the 'eastern half' of Metro 2 being constructed first (and may be the only part ever built), that is from Southern Cross to Mernda or possibly Woolert too via Flagstaff, Carlton and Fitzroy, to ease pressure off the Hurstbridge Line and to cater for the massive growth in the Whittlesea area.
TrackRailroad
With Doncaster off the table, none of it stacks up. Nor does running a dead end line to Southern Cross achieve anything. Wollert is not even a project yet. Just some bad left over marketing. Capacity could be freed up by having a conflict free Newport, a fraction of the price of Metro 2.

As for Fishermans bend, Plan Melbourne and City of Melbourne have both flagged extending the tram networks as the medium term transport solution. This is all that will be needed for the next 10 years and some. Two tram lines running 5 minute services could do a lot of heavy lifting. Once the majority of the development is completed a case might form for heavy rail, by then this could be further backed up by Werribee and Mernda.


In the short term, they could introduce high capacity signalling to reduce the bottlenecks at Newport and Clifton hill, when they do hit the max 24tph capacity
True Believers
Clifton Hill in itself is a massive project, one that has for decades been put in the too hard, too expensive basket.

Clifton Hill Station would need to be sunk and moved under Ramsden Street. The down Mernda Line would need to slew underneath the Up Hurstbridge to join with the Down Hurstbridge. There is not a lot of room to change the geometry of the Hurstbridge line due to the Merri Creek Bridge. Sinking the whole station is also going to be a major issue as this fancy track work would be directly under the piers for Heidelberg Road. Moving the station to sit under Ramsden Street give them a little bit more room to work with and also improves connections.

While they are at it, Route 86 Tram should also have a dog leg inserted to improve intermodal connections. The tram should turn right on Turnbull Street to a new stop near the relocated Clifton Hill Station at Ramsden Street. The tram should then turn left to run along side Hoddle Street before rejoining the original route near the Queens Parade Overpass. This will add serval minutes to the travel time, but it is not uncommon to see masses walking through Mayors Park to Catch the Tram to workplaces In Fitzroy.  

Could easily spend a billion on Clifton Hill, but the above project also goes some way to providing what Metro 2 was going to provide by improving connections in Fitzroy and Carlton.

High Capacity Signalling gives you up to 36TPH, 18 trains to Mernda and Hurstbridge or a 3 minute frequency. It will be quite sometime before this capacity is used.

Newport is simpler, an flyover could be built by using land from the Newport Yards before the Melbourne Road overpass. Station could remain as is.

Lockie
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Clifton Hill in itself is a massive project, one that has for decades been put in the too hard, too expensive basket.

Clifton Hill Station would need to be sunk and moved under Ramsden Street. The down Mernda Line would need to slew underneath the Up Hurstbridge to join with the Down Hurstbridge. There is not a lot of room to change the geometry of the Hurstbridge line due to the Merri Creek Bridge. Sinking the whole station is also going to be a major issue as this fancy track work would be directly under the piers for Heidelberg Road. Moving the station to sit under Ramsden Street give them a little bit more room to work with and also improves connections.
......  
Could easily spend a billion on Clifton Hill, but the above project also goes some way to providing what Metro 2 was going to provide by improving connections in Fitzroy and Carlton.

High Capacity Signalling gives you up to 36TPH, 18 trains to Mernda and Hurstbridge or a 3 minute frequency. It will be quite sometime before this capacity is used.

Lockie
Lockie91
Agreed @Lockie that Clifton Hill re-vamp is essential.
The details you outlined is one way, and the expense has kept it in the too hard basket for too long.

To be really radical, some HARD decisions could be made to provide the answer quickly and relatively cheap.
1. Forget all about grade separation at Ramsden St. Just close the crossing. The area is local access only and reasonably served by other access points.
2. Build the fly-over as 1/2 over, 1/2 under and move south of Heidelberg Rd. Down Hurstbridge goes under the Mernda up.
   It would probably need the UP platform to move south, and new station building. NB: leave the Down station building as is.
3. To allow the trench for Hurstbridge down to get a smooth in and out, start the diverge about Ramsden St and run down the centre(vacant) path thru the station. This means that the Hurstbridge down train runs express thru Clifton Hill. Only affects a small number(any ?) pax that alight at the station destined for the Hurstbridge line.

cheers
John
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
Clifton Hill in itself is a massive project, one that has for decades been put in the too hard, too expensive basket.

Clifton Hill Station would need to be sunk and moved under Ramsden Street. The down Mernda Line would need to slew underneath the Up Hurstbridge to join with the Down Hurstbridge. There is not a lot of room to change the geometry of the Hurstbridge line due to the Merri Creek Bridge. Sinking the whole station is also going to be a major issue as this fancy track work would be directly under the piers for Heidelberg Road. Moving the station to sit under Ramsden Street give them a little bit more room to work with and also improves connections.
......  
Could easily spend a billion on Clifton Hill, but the above project also goes some way to providing what Metro 2 was going to provide by improving connections in Fitzroy and Carlton.

High Capacity Signalling gives you up to 36TPH, 18 trains to Mernda and Hurstbridge or a 3 minute frequency. It will be quite sometime before this capacity is used.

Lockie
Agreed @Lockie that Clifton Hill re-vamp is essential.
The details you outlined is one way, and the expense has kept it in the too hard basket for too long.

To be really radical, some HARD decisions could be made to provide the answer quickly and relatively cheap.
1. Forget all about grade separation at Ramsden St. Just close the crossing. The area is local access only and reasonably served by other access points.
2. Build the fly-over as 1/2 over, 1/2 under and move south of Heidelberg Rd. Down Hurstbridge goes under the Mernda up.
   It would probably need the UP platform to move south, and new station building. NB: leave the Down station building as is.
3. To allow the trench for Hurstbridge down to get a smooth in and out, start the diverge about Ramsden St and run down the centre(vacant) path thru the station. This means that the Hurstbridge down train runs express thru Clifton Hill. Only affects a small number(any ?) pax that alight at the station destined for the Hurstbridge line.

cheers
John
justarider
I would disagree with any Mernda or Hurstbridge line service not stopping at Clifton Hill, given it is a junction station and it facilitates good connections to Fitzroy and Carlton on the 86 tram, which serves many jobs and are busy shopping and entertainment areas. Not stopping at Clifton Hill would involve people having to walk to Westgarth or do extra unnecessary changes.

I do think however the Clifton Hill Junction does need to be rebuilt with flyovers allowing Hurstbridge down and Mernda Up services to cross paths at the same time, removing conflicts with the addition of high capacity signalling between Clifton Hill and Flinders Street and through the city loop to allow much greater trains per hour. This is important particularly for Mernda, which is going to grow in patronage more so than Hurstbridge line due to the growth corridor at the end of the line.

I am not a local to the area, but the Ramsey Street crossing looks particularly quiet and looks like it could be closed, as there are other alternatives close by, and it is not a major road. This would save costs in terms of otherwise having to grade separate this crossing.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Clifton Hill in itself is a massive project, one that has for decades been put in the too hard, too expensive basket.

Clifton Hill Station would need to be sunk and moved under Ramsden Street. The down Mernda Line would need to slew underneath the Up Hurstbridge to join with the Down Hurstbridge. There is not a lot of room to change the geometry of the Hurstbridge line due to the Merri Creek Bridge. Sinking the whole station is also going to be a major issue as this fancy track work would be directly under the piers for Heidelberg Road. Moving the station to sit under Ramsden Street give them a little bit more room to work with and also improves connections.
......  
Could easily spend a billion on Clifton Hill, but the above project also goes some way to providing what Metro 2 was going to provide by improving connections in Fitzroy and Carlton.

High Capacity Signalling gives you up to 36TPH, 18 trains to Mernda and Hurstbridge or a 3 minute frequency. It will be quite sometime before this capacity is used.

Lockie
Agreed @Lockie that Clifton Hill re-vamp is essential.
The details you outlined is one way, and the expense has kept it in the too hard basket for too long.

To be really radical, some HARD decisions could be made to provide the answer quickly and relatively cheap.
1. Forget all about grade separation at Ramsden St. Just close the crossing. The area is local access only and reasonably served by other access points.
2. Build the fly-over as 1/2 over, 1/2 under and move south of Heidelberg Rd. Down Hurstbridge goes under the Mernda up.
   It would probably need the UP platform to move south, and new station building. NB: leave the Down station building as is.
3. To allow the trench for Hurstbridge down to get a smooth in and out, start the diverge about Ramsden St and run down the centre(vacant) path thru the station. This means that the Hurstbridge down train runs express thru Clifton Hill. Only affects a small number(any ?) pax that alight at the station destined for the Hurstbridge line.

cheers
John
I would disagree with any Mernda or Hurstbridge line service not stopping at Clifton Hill, given it is a junction station and it facilitates good connections to Fitzroy and Carlton on the 86 tram, which serves many jobs and are busy shopping and entertainment areas. Not stopping at Clifton Hill would involve people having to walk to Westgarth or do extra unnecessary changes.

I do think however the Clifton Hill Junction does need to be rebuilt with flyovers allowing Hurstbridge down and Mernda Up services to cross paths at the same time, removing conflicts with the addition of high capacity signalling between Clifton Hill and Flinders Street and through the city loop to allow much greater trains per hour. This is important particularly for Mernda, which is going to grow in patronage more so than Hurstbridge line due to the growth corridor at the end of the line.

I am not a local to the area, but the Ramsey Street crossing looks particularly quiet and looks like it could be closed, as there are other alternatives close by, and it is not a major road. This would save costs in terms of otherwise having to grade separate this crossing.
TrackRailroad
Well if we must nit pick about the tram connect.
86 tram stop to Clifton Hill = 350m
86 tram stop to Westgarth = 280m

Down pax from city can still use the Mernda train for Clifton Hill.

Up trains no effect.

So we are left with very nearby Clifton Hill pax destined for Hurstbridge, and
Up Mernda pax change for down Hurstbridge.

Both those need to be considered. Count them instead of guessing theory.
BTW. Opening of SRL will resolve a number of those pax problems.

I did say some hard decisions needed for the greater benefit.

cheers
John
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman

Clifton Hill in itself is a massive project, one that has for decades been put in the too hard, too expensive basket.

Clifton Hill Station would need to be sunk and moved under Ramsden Street. The down Mernda Line would need to slew underneath the Up Hurstbridge to join with the Down Hurstbridge. There is not a lot of room to change the geometry of the Hurstbridge line due to the Merri Creek Bridge. Sinking the whole station is also going to be a major issue as this fancy track work would be directly under the piers for Heidelberg Road. Moving the station to sit under Ramsden Street give them a little bit more room to work with and also improves connections.
......  
Could easily spend a billion on Clifton Hill, but the above project also goes some way to providing what Metro 2 was going to provide by improving connections in Fitzroy and Carlton.

High Capacity Signalling gives you up to 36TPH, 18 trains to Mernda and Hurstbridge or a 3 minute frequency. It will be quite sometime before this capacity is used.

Lockie
Agreed @Lockie that Clifton Hill re-vamp is essential.
The details you outlined is one way, and the expense has kept it in the too hard basket for too long.

To be really radical, some HARD decisions could be made to provide the answer quickly and relatively cheap.
1. Forget all about grade separation at Ramsden St. Just close the crossing. The area is local access only and reasonably served by other access points.
2. Build the fly-over as 1/2 over, 1/2 under and move south of Heidelberg Rd. Down Hurstbridge goes under the Mernda up.
   It would probably need the UP platform to move south, and new station building. NB: leave the Down station building as is.
3. To allow the trench for Hurstbridge down to get a smooth in and out, start the diverge about Ramsden St and run down the centre(vacant) path thru the station. This means that the Hurstbridge down train runs express thru Clifton Hill. Only affects a small number(any ?) pax that alight at the station destined for the Hurstbridge line.

cheers
John
I would disagree with any Mernda or Hurstbridge line service not stopping at Clifton Hill, given it is a junction station and it facilitates good connections to Fitzroy and Carlton on the 86 tram, which serves many jobs and are busy shopping and entertainment areas. Not stopping at Clifton Hill would involve people having to walk to Westgarth or do extra unnecessary changes.

I do think however the Clifton Hill Junction does need to be rebuilt with flyovers allowing Hurstbridge down and Mernda Up services to cross paths at the same time, removing conflicts with the addition of high capacity signalling between Clifton Hill and Flinders Street and through the city loop to allow much greater trains per hour. This is important particularly for Mernda, which is going to grow in patronage more so than Hurstbridge line due to the growth corridor at the end of the line.

I am not a local to the area, but the Ramsey Street crossing looks particularly quiet and looks like it could be closed, as there are other alternatives close by, and it is not a major road. This would save costs in terms of otherwise having to grade separate this crossing.
Well if we must nit pick about the tram connect.
86 tram stop to Clifton Hill = 350m
86 tram stop to Westgarth = 280m

Down pax from city can still use the Mernda train for Clifton Hill.

Up trains no effect.

So we are left with very nearby Clifton Hill pax destined for Hurstbridge, and
Up Mernda pax change for down Hurstbridge.

Both those need to be considered. Count them instead of guessing theory.
BTW. Opening of SRL will resolve a number of those pax problems.

I did say some hard decisions needed for the greater benefit.

cheers
John
justarider
Is there a driver changeover that happens at Clifton Hill. I think I remember that happening somewhere. Is that on the Up or Down?
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Clifton Hill in itself is a massive project, one that has for decades been put in the too hard, too expensive basket.

Clifton Hill Station would need to be sunk and moved under Ramsden Street. The down Mernda Line would need to slew underneath the Up Hurstbridge to join with the Down Hurstbridge. There is not a lot of room to change the geometry of the Hurstbridge line due to the Merri Creek Bridge. Sinking the whole station is also going to be a major issue as this fancy track work would be directly under the piers for Heidelberg Road. Moving the station to sit under Ramsden Street give them a little bit more room to work with and also improves connections.
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Could easily spend a billion on Clifton Hill, but the above project also goes some way to providing what Metro 2 was going to provide by improving connections in Fitzroy and Carlton.

High Capacity Signalling gives you up to 36TPH, 18 trains to Mernda and Hurstbridge or a 3 minute frequency. It will be quite sometime before this capacity is used.

Lockie
Agreed @Lockie that Clifton Hill re-vamp is essential.
The details you outlined is one way, and the expense has kept it in the too hard basket for too long.

To be really radical, some HARD decisions could be made to provide the answer quickly and relatively cheap.
1. Forget all about grade separation at Ramsden St. Just close the crossing. The area is local access only and reasonably served by other access points.
2. Build the fly-over as 1/2 over, 1/2 under and move south of Heidelberg Rd. Down Hurstbridge goes under the Mernda up.
   It would probably need the UP platform to move south, and new station building. NB: leave the Down station building as is.
3. To allow the trench for Hurstbridge down to get a smooth in and out, start the diverge about Ramsden St and run down the centre(vacant) path thru the station. This means that the Hurstbridge down train runs express thru Clifton Hill. Only affects a small number(any ?) pax that alight at the station destined for the Hurstbridge line.

cheers
John
I would disagree with any Mernda or Hurstbridge line service not stopping at Clifton Hill, given it is a junction station and it facilitates good connections to Fitzroy and Carlton on the 86 tram, which serves many jobs and are busy shopping and entertainment areas. Not stopping at Clifton Hill would involve people having to walk to Westgarth or do extra unnecessary changes.

I do think however the Clifton Hill Junction does need to be rebuilt with flyovers allowing Hurstbridge down and Mernda Up services to cross paths at the same time, removing conflicts with the addition of high capacity signalling between Clifton Hill and Flinders Street and through the city loop to allow much greater trains per hour. This is important particularly for Mernda, which is going to grow in patronage more so than Hurstbridge line due to the growth corridor at the end of the line.

I am not a local to the area, but the Ramsey Street crossing looks particularly quiet and looks like it could be closed, as there are other alternatives close by, and it is not a major road. This would save costs in terms of otherwise having to grade separate this crossing.
Well if we must nit pick about the tram connect.
86 tram stop to Clifton Hill = 350m
86 tram stop to Westgarth = 280m

Down pax from city can still use the Mernda train for Clifton Hill.

Up trains no effect.

So we are left with very nearby Clifton Hill pax destined for Hurstbridge, and
Up Mernda pax change for down Hurstbridge.

Both those need to be considered. Count them instead of guessing theory.
BTW. Opening of SRL will resolve a number of those pax problems.

I did say some hard decisions needed for the greater benefit.

cheers
John
justarider
The entire station will be rebuilt no matter how the fly over is factored in. Having a road overpass is going to limit the construction of a traditional fly over.

As for a uni directional stopping pattern for Clifton Hill? Never going to happen. Would be a passenger usability nightmare being able to only alight a service in one direction. Substantial money is going to be invested and major earth works will be required, can't see them skimping to save. The government of the day would be roasted.

Queensland just made a similar decision in relation to Cross River. Opting to spend and extra billion dollars on a more complicated station location that would allow for interchange, over making passengers walk 9 minutes.

As for Ramsden street, if the station is to be sunk and moved in the down direction then paving a road over the top is a minor expense. I imagine there would be plenty of NIMBY's to ensure the road remains open.

Im Not sure how SRL is going to assist people wanting to access the inner areas of Fitzroy and Carlton.

Lockie

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